What about the Grind?

[Hypernaut1]

18 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Warframe's Grind is RNG based.... meaning most of the time when people are grinding they arent getting rewarded with anything useful...

Do you now see why people dont like Grinding ?

 

I completely understand why some people don't like grinding. But why would they be playing Warframe????  

The games first 100 hours tells you that this game is about repeating the same things over and over just to get gear to continue doing that same grind. When the "grind" is over, the game is over. 

[Lutesque]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I completely understand why some people don't like grinding. But why would they be playing Warframe????

Because Co-Op and Space Ninjas.

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The games first 100 hours tells you that this game is about repeating the same things over and over just to get gear to continue doing that same grind. 

Actually the game doesnt tell you anything. Ever. Thats always been the biggest critism of Warframe... that you have to have the wiki open some where in the background just to get any information on literally everything. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

12 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Because Co-Op and Space Ninjas.

Actually the game doesnt tell you anything. Ever. Thats always been the biggest critism of Warframe... that you have to have the wiki open some where in the background just to get any information on literally everything. 

It does, but people that are new to MMOs or people that are simply lazy usually dont fully read through the tools provided. 

This is why you have people asking basic questions instead of reading the codex or listening or reading the games prompts. 

This is why we have to answer basic questions, like people that come back after 3 years and ask for full damage reworks, for example.

[Magus_Tahir]

40 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Actually the game doesnt tell you anything. Ever. Thats always been the biggest critism of Warframe... that you have to have the wiki open some where in the background just to get any information on literally everything. 

Ironically that is what brought many people to the game years ago, and may yet still. Oversimplification of games that makes it easy for casual players to overtake the previous majority of skill and investment focused players is also a legit criticism that many other titles have faced as it dumbing games down to appeal to wider audiences in this day and age in the industry. I recall a question in a DEV stream years ago where the question was asked concerning this and the response was this is how WF was intended not as a negative, but to have players come together in Co-Op and learn together, from each other, and rise up as one that was the vision six years ago still is to this day. 

When I started the game I literally didn't know how to bullet jump for over a month. And when it was finally shown to me by my BF my eyes were opened I was literally in awe. Clans held tightly to their secrets builds were only shared amongst friends n such. Today everything Warframe has is accessible both from the Wiki, and Youtube we have hours upon hours of coverage and from a Dev point of view that is players helping players. Players also need to help themselves, and so the saying goes give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. 

When new players ask me for a build I send them to resources that teach them when I do not have the time to teach them myself. Learning the basics is a fundamental process for Warframe and while I completely agree the new player experience needs a revamp I can only hope they do so in a way that keeps the effort required not because I want it to be difficult to get into the game, but because I want to see new players realize they can learn and become stronger with time and effort. If there is a great chasm between the weakest of players and the greatest from just sheer knowledge remedying that will raise the entire community not just select few, and like so many things in this world education is the number one method that is going to get us there.

Somewhere along the road we went from having the wiki open as being seen as a positive signal that a player was making themselves better by being informed, to the idea of having to open a wiki as an inconvenience and a negative in WF. For some contrast here a game like FFXIV you are going to have more than a wiki open and no one bats an eyelash. Garlond Tools for crafting and gathering materials, Lodestone for character and game information, Wiki for ability information, Final Fantasy Logs for DPS/Healing/Tanking tracking, and about 6-8 different discords for open world hunts, special zones, and getting into theorycrafting and rotation guides, and Youtubers. It's about double what you need to play Warframe and learn how to play it and that's not counting the ingame cross server communication channels and ingame looking for group tools.

What many call Warframes biggest criticism is a foundational cornerstone to its success. The closest we have gotten is the Tips section for Warframes and the Tutorial buttons in game, and amazingly there are players who don't even know they exist even though they press the buttons next to them every time they play the game practically. What would the community prefer a weak player base that needs constant hand holding, or a strong player base that is capable of researching and applying themselves to become better and become stronger players I wonder. From experience I can say that too much hand holding will and does create an expectation that good players will carry the weaker ones and there is a point where patience runs out in that regard. If players think Warframe has elitist players now, ho my hold onto your socks as I could easily see players saying you can't join my party because you don't have X, Y, and Z just because those players do not want to feel like they are carrying others.

[Lutesque]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It does

It does NOT.

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

but people that are new to MMOs or people that are simply lazy usually dont fully read through the tools provided. 

Stop blaming the players... a lack of a tutorial is bull S#&$ and you know it.

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

This is why you have people asking basic questions instead of reading the codex or listening or reading the games prompts. 

The Codex is useless...

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

This is why we have to answer basic questions, like people that come back after 3 years and ask for full damage reworks, for example.

Dont you think this is something that should be explained in game... a full damage rework is kinda a huge deal. It deserves more than just a mention in the Patch Notes. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It does NOT.

Stop blaming the players... a lack of a tutorial is bull S#&$ and you know it.

The Codex is useless...

Dont you think this is something that should be explained in game... a full damage rework is kinda a huge deal. It deserves more than just a mention in the Patch Notes. 

It is explained in game and in the forums. The same forums you are on....the last update they even added a button on the bottom right that shows you update stuff. It's also on the top right of the loading screen when you start the game up. I guess that wasn't enough so they had to add a second way to try to get people to make an attempt to help themselves. 

Part of life is learning to read.....not really sure how else to explain that.

 

Edit: The codex is useless, yet you have people that still dont know how status and damage work with the different factions....

Kinda like all these people afraid of the "high level" corpus in the Vallis preventing them from farming toroids because they cant handle it.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It is explained in game and in the forums. The same forums you are on....the last update they even added a button on the bottom right that shows you update stuff

No it isnt...

And the button only mentions that they changed the thing but give no detailed explenation as to what was changed exactly.

Also... mine only showed the last 2 major changes.... the other 2 Changes i missed werent there.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's also on the top right of the loading screen when you start the game up. I guess that wasn't enough so they had to add a second way to try to get people to make an attempt to help themselves. 

Here's a suggestion...

Use the in game message system, then drop a tutorial in there.

Do that and people will stop *@##$ing. 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Part of life is learning to read.....not really sure how else to explain that.

So if someone fails to dig up hidden information that person is illiterate ?

Do you have any idea what that makes sound like ? 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

9 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

No it isnt...

And the button only mentions that they changed the thing but give no detailed explenation as to what was changed exactly.

Also... mine only showed the last 2 major changes.... the other 2 Changes i missed werent there.

Here's a suggestion...

Use the in game message system, then drop a tutorial in there.

Do that and people will stop *@##$ing. 

So if someone fails to dig up hidden information that person is illiterate ?

Do you have any idea what that makes sound like ? 

Everyone can read, but actively avoiding any form of learning or taking initiative is what I meant. 

Why do you think theres a bot telling people where to get resources when they can simply hover their mouse over a planets icon at the bottom right to see which resources drop? 

At some point, you're gonna have to do something yourself.

[JackHargreav]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

My argument for F2P Games as always been leave the mechanics alone and make money with Cosmetics.

 

And with that never make any money.

Maybe if every single cosmetic has to be bought for real money, this idea can work tho. But that's what I really hated about Tera.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Everyone can read, but actively avoiding any form of learning or taking initiative is what I meant. 

It would have to be in the game to actively avoid it...

It would have to be somewhere most players are expected to be to actively avoid it.

Seeing thats not the case this is just you bashing players again for no reason.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Why do you think theres a bot telling people where to get resources when they can simply hover their mouse over a planets icon at the bottom right to see which resources drop? 

Thats oddly specific. 

Why arent the list of Resources simply displayed in a Corner somewhere whenever the planet is zoomed in on ?

I suppose if you were working at DE your solution would be to just call players morons rather than taking literally 5 Minutes to update the UI and eliminate the problem all together.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

At some point, you're gonna have to do something yourself.

Thats exactly what causes these problems.

Players always want to figure things out on their own... By Playing...

It wouldnt be figuring things out on your own if you looked it up on the wiki...

3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

And with that never make any money.

Wont know until they try it.

4 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Maybe if every single cosmetic has to be bought for real money, this idea can work tho. But that's what I really hated about Tera.

Thats the idea... 

BTW i never played Terra so i cant say anything about how that works.

[Aldain]

42 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

For some contrast here a game like FFXIV you are going to have more than a wiki open and no one bats an eyelash. Garlond Tools for crafting and gathering materials, Lodestone for character and game information, Wiki for ability information, Final Fantasy Logs for DPS/Healing/Tanking tracking, and about 6-8 different discords for open world hunts, special zones, and getting into theorycrafting and rotation guides, and Youtubers.

...I was always more the "haha paladin goes brrrrrr" type when I play FF14. Most of the other things like parses, Crathering, and hunts just never dragged my attention.

Honestly I had to look up less playing FF14 than I did playing any of Xenoblade Chronicles 1/2/X.

But then again whenever I play a holy trinity game I always seem to pick a tank and slam my face into things until it works, I am a very primitive holy trinity player.

Just adding in my perspective with this, pay me no mind.

[Magus_Tahir]

Just now, Aldain said:

...I was always more the "haha paladin goes brrrrrr" type when I play FF14. Most of the other things like parses, Crathering, and hunts just never dragged my attention.

Honestly I had to look up less playing FF14 than I did playing any of Xenoblade Chronicles 1/2/X.

But then again whenever I play a holy trinity game I always seem to pick a tank and slam my face into things until it works, I am a very primitive holy trinity player.

Just adding in my perspective with this, pay me no mind.

Tanks are a Mages best friend you know!

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It would have to be in the game to actively avoid it...

It would have to be somewhere most players are expected to be to actively avoid it.

Seeing thats not the case this is just you bashing players again for no reason.

Thats oddly specific. 

Why arent the list of Resources simply displayed in a Corner somewhere whenever the planet is zoomed in on ?

I suppose if you were working at DE your solution would be to just call players morons rather than taking literally 5 Minutes to update the UI and eliminate the problem all together.

Thats exactly what causes these problems.

Players always want to figure things out on their own... By Playing...

It wouldnt be figuring things out on your own if you looked it up on the wiki...

Wont know until they try it.

Thats the idea... 

BTW i never played Terra so i cant say anything about how that works.

So now hovering over an icon is too much....? 

You have to hover over "Inventory" to access your inventory in the options menu, which is itself accessed by pressing a button.

I mean, I love voice commands just like anyone. I have a voice command option on my tv remote, for those crazy times when pressing a button is too much.....

But we're looking at a massive overhaul if you want DE to make the entire game voice command activated to avoid pressing buttons and hovering over items.

[Aldain]

Just now, Magus_Tahir said:

Tanks are a Mages best friend you know!

That does hold true, most of my friends play casters or healers, with a few outliers being tanks and ranged dps.

My favorite thing in FF14 though is walking into a higher level dungeon, watching everyone but me die to a boss, and then soloing it because I have Clemency and Clemency is hilarious in dungeons.

And somehow every time this happens people look at me like I'm some sort of maniac for pulling it off.

[TARINunit9]

9 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

• Void Traces (I still don't know how the final earnings are calculated outside of people who pick your item.)

Pick a random number between 6 and 30, inclusive

That's it, that's all there is to it

[Magus_Tahir]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

That does hold true, most of my friends play casters or healers, with a few outliers being tanks and ranged dps.

My favorite thing in FF14 though is walking into a higher level dungeon, watching everyone but me die to a boss, and then soloing it because I have Clemency and Clemency is hilarious in dungeons.

And somehow every time this happens people look at me like I'm some sort of maniac for pulling it off.

I did that on my Dark Knight during Storm Blood in The Drowned City of Skalla. Final boss attack rotations is very easy to handle and The Blackest Night was and is the most powerful dmg reduction tool in a tanks arsenal. Its amazing how many die to tail swipes even today.

I am a Summoner/Astro main so I can say that great tanks are a blessing that no healer and dps should be without. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Magus_Tahir said:

I did that on my Dark Knight during Storm Blood in The Drowned City of Skalla. Final boss attack rotations is very easy to handle and The Blackest Night was and is the most powerful dmg reduction tool in a tanks arsenal. Its amazing how many die to tail swipes even today.

I am a Summoner/Astro main so I can say that great tanks are a blessing that no healer and dps should be without. 

Hey I also solo'd that boss, high-five!

Though I don't claim to be a great tank...or even a good one really, I tend to wind up sacrificing DPS for survival far more often than many suggest to...hell I've been yelled at by healers for using Clemency on them when they get sideswiped by the stray AoE a few times. Though that admittedly is rare.

[TioMegaManX]

Some people kind of miss the point when I listed the currencies and resources, yes, some of them can be farmed in more optimal ways, the point is, the grind seems to not be reduced, only spread around, as some people mentioned some currencies are subject to RNG to the point of feeling unrewarding (Steel Essence), the other factor is the time gating added to the grind, if we have "just the right amount" as some people claim there should be no need for time gates like daily standing cap, also "content drought" is more about people not having a goal once they got the new toys, those aren't supposed to be the goal but something to try them on, Sponge Path may be a step in the right direction for some (still badly implemented considering the lack of oversight by just cloning the star chart), rivens are probably another small progression system since people would pursue their perfect rolls at some point, people just want to have something interesting to do after collecting everything they want, it isn't always a challenge but some exploration, messing around, etc., the problem is how the game has you playing the parts you don't like much only to be able to play the parts you like.

[Magus_Tahir]

10 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

the problem is how the game has you playing the parts you don't like much only to be able to play the parts you like.

Now this is a fine thought, but you are going to need to give concrete examples due to the vague and subjective nature of what players like and don't like. So without any context this is very much ambiguous. Do you have a specific example in mind?

[Ikyr0]

9 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Kuva (only made a bit less painful with Kuva survival.)

lolwut?

im sitting on 150k kuva (down from 250k) just from doing casual Arbies and Nightwave. I had 3 rivens I was actively rolling, till I got near-perfect rolls. If I felt like it, I could roll a bunch more rivens and make hundreds of plat. Doing kuva survivals with the Smeeta and boosters is just plain silly, unless you just love this game mode. 

Pick an activity that you enjoy, and the resource you want will roll in. For example, I'm doing long survivals in Steel Path, and I'm getting good amounts of Steel Essence, credits, endo, and affinity. If you like RJ, Void Traces will roll in. And so on. 

If you don't like any given activity, then you just don't get that resource...and yes, it will then be perceived as a grind. To me, Arbies and SP are the most balanced activities in the game, as you can get multiple important resources just from two activities. 

[GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

In retrospective, since I had a break and only came back last year I have to wonder from the perspective of other players and the statements from the developers who said "we want to reduce the grind" but in all seriousness, was the grind really reduced or you think it was actually increased in one way or another? personally I don't feel like I have to grind less from way back when Void Keys were a thing, when dilution of drop tables began to take their toll on players multiple times some people suggested some kind of currency to buy your prime components instead, I always told them considering how DE handled the grind and their monetization you could expect to get currency drops of 5 or less when components would be priced in the 100s at least, what happened when I came back?

• Void Traces (I still don't know how the final earnings are calculated outside of people who pick your item.)
• Ducats (prime junk is no less grindy.)
• Endo (chunks are hilariously low if you ask me.)
• Kuva (only made a bit less painful with Kuva survival.)
• Vitus Essence
• Nakak Pearls
• Syndicate Standing (with daily cap.)
• Focus
• Steel Essence
• Riven Slivers (which you can't use more than once per day because reasons.)
• Hema (OK, this isn't a currency thing, just DE right out coercing people into buying the thing with platinum.)

Called it, we got lotsa currencies from a Monkey's Paw wish, but you tell me what you think, just save the "I can get this in less than an hour doing this" because that's another thing, once a certain method is discovered sometimes it gets nerfed, back when I stopped playing I didn't even know where to power level (if you are curious I began to play when vanilla Zephyr was added and stopped after Howl of the Kubrow, then came back during Mirage Prime Access update.)

They increased resources accumulated in some areas and reduced needs in others. The grind system debate is a bad one because the complaints are usually strong at the beginning of a new feature then, a week later, the conversation fades away because the complaints were usually attempts at whining to get the shiny toys faster. People complained about scarlet spear despite literally buying all of the R5 arcanes. It was a brat move disguised as a complaint. 

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

So now hovering over an icon is too much....? 

If you play on Controller theres no Cursor to hover with... i mean there is but its far from intuitive. 

Not only that. The drone I can isnt even there by default. Its the Nightwave Banner thats there... you have to click something else to make the Resource Drone Icon show up.

Is it too much ? Dont know... But it can be easily improved in 5 Minutes.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

You have to hover over "Inventory" to access your inventory in the options menu, which is itself accessed by pressing a button.

Cool Story... Not sure why you are telling me this though.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I mean, I love voice commands just like anyone. I have a voice command option on my tv remote, for those crazy times when pressing a button is too much.....

Uhm... also Cool... I guess... still mot sure why you are telling me this though.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

But we're looking at a massive overhaul if you want DE to make the entire game voice command activated to avoid pressing buttons and hovering over items.

I never said anything but Voice Commands 😮

i literally only suggested adjusting the UI to display the Resources on the side of any planet you are zoomed in on.... again... will only took a single Programmer and UI artist 5 Minutes. 

you dont even have to wake up the Project Leads for this one... Modders would do it for free if you let them.

3 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

Pick an activity that you enjoy, and the resource you want will roll in.

Funny... I love doing Spy missions and yet no Kuva has come from it... 

No vitus essence, steel essence or Endo either.

Where are the Resources you promised me 😞 ?

 

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

I've honestly been off this game for months, and only visit maybe once every couple weeks to use the simulacrum or level 1 or 2 items (and probably for a few hours once SP finishes updating), and there's legitimately no reason for me to play it. It's all grind and no fun. You grind and grind for gear, and then you have absolutely nowhere to use it. SP is a good first step, but we need an actual endgame. What MMO doesn't have an endgame? Endgames exist to reward your efforts and give you something to use your hard-earned (our bought) gear in. I haven't touched Fortuna or finished my Railjack, and I have zero plans on ever doing so as PoE tired me out from the open world grind and Fortuna is the same thing, just reskinned. And Railjack is another content island with insane grind and no variety. It wasn't enjoyable enough when I played it to incentivize me to build my own.

[schilds]

Depends on which grind you mean.

The grind for new content? Newly released content doesn't seem to have any less grind than what I've already been through with old content.

Or the old grind (that you or I have already been through) for old content? I believe this has been reduced, though I can't be 100% certain without starting a new account and playing the game through again :-P. There may be specific things which haven't been improved (e.g. Hema), but I believe it's less overall.

[Voltage]

14 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The endo example is a bad one seeing as since arbitrations it's been absurdly easy to gather. How many of you remember farming fusion cores in Heiracon to upgrade mods? 

Triton Neptune was where it was at.