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Discussion and Feedback on the Helminth Chrysalis - The most shocking feature ever revealed?


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Hey all,

While I'm generally excited for the Heart of Deimos update, what was absolutely horrifying to me was that they casually announced how you'd be able to sacrifice frames in order to splice their abilities onto other frames. While, of course, that's going to lead to a type of meta forming around that instantly, what perhaps worries me most is how DE does not seem to value individual frame identity at all.

What is frame identity? It's that misty thing that's only visible in the Grendel missions. While on regular missions, you just pick something, everything does the same, which is killing heaps upon heaps of enemies. (Or not a all, depending on the frame). While that may lead people to view frames as just a binary tool that can check either of two boxes, namely; kills a lot of mooks or does not kill a lot of mooks, in the Grendel missions you can clearly see that, beneath it all, there is most definitely an identity tied to the frame's kit. In regular play you won't see a Frost. Not often, at least, but in the Grendel missions you can clearly see that his kit serves a very particular purpose, and that he most definitely excels at what he does.... in situations that are actually demanding. Outside of those missions, where everything dies instantly to a huge arsenal of, what are essentially, orbital nukes, you won't ever find a use for any of that.

I've long felt that the only way to provide any of the following; 
-Any feasible form of "endgame"
-Challenge
-Coordination between players
, there would have to be a specific need or desire to embrace frame idenity, and what each particular frame brings to the table. And again, this is only visible in the Grendel missions, but buried deep in the core of this game, all of the tools required for this game to actually have any of the points I mentioned are already there

Subsuming warframes, however, is, to me at least, a clear indication that DE does not think like that, does not value frame identity highly, and is willing to water down each and every frame for players to continue min-maxing into eternity, and once again, without any place to apply the extra boost in strength that we are once again getting from this new feature.
To me it just shows that they have no intention at all of making use of existing frame identities to allow the players to come up with interesting squad compositions to tackle challenges. Just more pew pew everything dies instantly without so much as a thought as to what frame to play or what squad composition. Just raw damage, and we're getting even more of that, despite the fact that our current damage is already insurmountably high.

 

TL;DR
Subsuming warframes further waters down individual frame identity, which is worrying to me, as I see it as an indication that this game will only dumb down even further, requiring less and less tactics and thinking with each and every update.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Demon Intellect said:

The biggest issue I see with it is that it will probably just be the frames useless ability. I mean volts 1 and mags 1 arent exactly anything special.

They're more useful than Trinity or Valkyr's #1. Or whatever Mesa's #1 is. Mag's #1 is actually pretty good for Mesa. Enemies refusing to get out of cover? Yank them into the air and shoot them like clay pigeons.

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Yeah I'm with the party against giving Warframes other warframe abilities; this entire mechanic as a whole is concerning on many levels.
At least if it was just Helminth abilities we might get some reassurance of adaptability between warframe themes and kits, but there are a lot of Warframes that have been reworked so that their entire ability set has interconnecting synergies, that replacing even one or moving one of those abilities would be akin to pulling a support from under a house of cards.

I felt like Warframe kits were starting to really get somewhere with Gauss, all his abilities played off one another and really fed his theme flawlessly, it feels all too tightly woven to even think of pulling a single ability to use elsewhere.  Which kind of makes me feel only the 'older' and less 'refined' frames will benefit from this mechanic, so instead of a good ability rework that might put them on par with Gauss's design, they'll just get frankensteined with other more appealing abilities and people will stop complaining as much, which means less pressure on DE to actually rework them, which means they'll never get reworked because it's far more exciting to add mech combat to Warframe or whatever is the latest fascination.

Also means any chance of balance is going to get thrown out the window, since now they'll need to consider the power of warframe abilities not just within the original warframe's kit, but with any other possible warframe they ever make.
Considering it sounds like they're never going to stop making new warframes... yeah.

This system is going to need something significant to stop it spiraling completely out of control or being restrained into uselessness.
If they're bent on sacrificing Warframes, maybe just design a series of Helminth abilities inspired from Warframe abilities that can at least work with Warframe kits, mutate existing abilities instead of outright replacing them.

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Keep in mind that you will at all times have the majority of the abilities be from the frame you are using as you can only ever replace one of the 4 abilities. 

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Which is why they specified no Ultimates or signature abilities. So the abilities every frame will give up will be the most generic or basic ability of their kit.

Grendel will likely give his 2 and it won’t require consumed enemies. As it’s just a series of different kinds of buffs.

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3 hours ago, Mephane said:

Saryn's 

Wisps's

Saryn's will be Molt and Nezha's will be Firewalker. Confirmed by Pablo

Wisp's 2 if it's available will be feature request no.1 for endurance runners. Zenurik and a macro and it gives you not nullifiable damage immunity.
 

3 hours ago, Mephane said:

Rhino,  with a #1 that is barely ever used

Only time it doesnt come into play is in ESO and Eidolons. Outside of that it boosts Iron Skin a lot and when going Stomp build its travel distance is amazing.
 

3 hours ago, Mephane said:

Atlas. While is kit is not bad, replacing his #3

You mean his 2. His 3 is an amazing CC tool on its own.

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Don't know about you guys but i'm more curious if we'll also be able to use the augments for those abilities. That would make or break certain choices, such as, I'll gladly give up the bleed if I can swap Ash's shuriken for Banshee's Sonic Boom and benefit from AoE armor strip instead of 2 targets only strip.

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1 hour ago, VittiRayne said:

Please do NOT allow Limbo to be fed to the Helminth Chrysalis!!

I'm already seeing chatter on the discord servers that I am apart of how people want to use his Banish & Stasis abilities to troll people or further drive his image into the dirt.

Poor Limbo already has a bad enough rap as it is and has been nerfed already. It would be a shame to see this latest update be a cause to ruin his kit any further.

DE has already stated that the Helminth is a picky eater and that if you feed it certain thing it becomes upset and/or angry.
It could easily be explained that consuming a Limbo Warframe is not to the Helminth Chrysalis' tastes, it would prevent player's from being abused by these abilities, and save Limbo from future nerfs.

- Otherwise I love ALL of the points that you bring up Aceofgods and I think these would be fantastic features to add to the system, ease some of the time-gating, and make it more engaging! 

IIRC the system is going to work so that only one ability can be taken from every Frame. This ability is predetermined by the developers. E.g. for Mag, only Pull can be picked, no other ability can be taken.

When I first heard about this upcoming system, I was pretty worried to be honest - Warframe's "balance" is already super flimsy and people can solo anything with the correct build. Personally I prefer when games require more coordination and co-operation. Before I read that the system is going to only allow pulling one pre-determined Warframe ability from each Frame, I figured that this would be extremely, extremely overpowered.

Edited by tzaeru
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Ive also sold all non-prime frames thinking I would never ever need them, so Im going to be quite dissapointed if we have to farm all of these AGAIN for this system, especially the ones that are extremely hard to get due RNG. It was already tedious to do once, doing it twice would be a nightmare, not to mention it would takes absurdly long time to do.

 

I hope this thing would check if youve already mastered said warframe and give you an option to buy it back or something with credits.

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I hope that when the update comes out there will be limitations with the warframe abilities, like increased cost or less effective reason being that I feel that it allows the original warframe to still have use while the chrysalis abilities gives out a defective, or a debuffed copy. I feel that if warframes have the same ability with the original, the original may not be used as much. this will make sure it is less likely to break the game too.

I hope people will understand what I am trying to say. 

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I'm mostly really angry about having to farm 44 frames all over again, including tons of very tedious ones and quest ones I have to repurchase from Simaris because I deleted them when their prime came out. Also looks like a huge ressource sink designed just to deplete all our stockpiles of hard-earned ressources over the years.

All in all, great idea, terrible execution. Why can't I just let a cyst mature on my frame, then use the cyst as the sacrifice tribute ? OR why not just add a vendor with the ability to recover non-prime frames we crafted and deleted ? Really unfair to come after 7 years and tell us "screw you for having deleted all these useless non-prime frames you had in your inventory, now you need them !".

Why do I have to farm two copies of every frames ? Why do I have to dump billions of ressources to level my helminth and sacrifice / rebind abilities to different frames ?

Also feel it might hurt frame diversity and uniqueness in the long run too.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Also looks like a huge ressource sink designed just to deplete all our stockpiles of hard-earned ressources over the years.

Oh. My. God.

"DE needs to STOP introducing new resources, and let us use our Billions of Alloy Plates, and Trillion Nanospores on something!!!" -Every Veteran Ever

*DE allows us to use the Resources we have, ALL of them, instead of having to farm some new Open World Resource to get a new one*

"What's with this RESOURCE SINK!!!! Why is DE making us DEPLETE our Hard-Earned Stockpiles!!!"

 

*Sad DE sounds.*

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42 minutes ago, TheRealShade said:

Don't know about you guys but i'm more curious if we'll also be able to use the augments for those abilities.

DE confirmed that we can.

41 minutes ago, tzaeru said:
When I first heard about this upcoming system, I was pretty worried to be honest - Warframe's "balance" is already super flimsy and people can solo anything with the correct build. Personally I prefer when games require more coordination and co-operation. Before I read that the system is going to only allow pulling one pre-determined Warframe ability from each Frame, I figured that this would be extremely, extremely overpowered.

Well, you can't choose which ability you want to take away from the frame anyway. Judging by devstream, this will be weak abilities mostly. And most likely they will be slightly reworked. So I don't think it will be an OP. I want to look more at universal abilities, because it might be something new.

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The Helminth Chrysalis system is undoubtedly the most interesting gameplay system that comes with the Heart of Deimos update, but as far as I see it, we can only get some low dps abilities for frames like shock, ice wave or things like these. Whose gonna even use pull or shock that they showed us anyway? I mean, this system, could make builds so much more interesting, but with these abilities I don't know if it's worth the time to farm out frames just for sacraficing them... What does excalibur give us then? Slash Dash? ;-;

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 right off the bat shock has an augment that adds shock damage to weapons. So at worst, we get to replace useless abilities with a damage buff. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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Just now, Gabbynaru said:

Of course not, it's DE. Why would you even expect anything good?

There is already a possible synergy revealed:

Garuda with Brief Respite, Bleeding and Decaying Dragon Key, and Molt from Saryn (plus augment). Permanent shield gating, infinite energy.

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Dude, imagine replacing mesa’s 1 with volt shock augument or smite infusion. Regulators gonna be op beyond doubt. Then you have new possible eidolon king volt woth smite infusion. Gold stuff lol i can see some nerfs already, and possible limitations to what certain frames gets. 

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Spores on a Slowva sound fun. 

Pocket sand Ash is going to be amazing. 

Might mess with a Vex Armor Inaros. 

Mesa's shatter shield would be helpful on many squishy frames. 

Might replace Embers 1 with Energy Vampire. 

Frost will really benefit from getting is 1 and 2 replaced. Maybe a wisp ability?

Mesmer Skin OP. 

 

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