Discussion and Feedback on the Helminth Chrysalis - The most shocking feature ever revealed?

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Let's do a thought experiment:

Let's say the helminth chrysalis system isn't a massive failure, and it ushers in an age of less frequent reworks, without strictly stopping them from happening. In the meantime, a frame desperate for a rework gets it kit supplemented with another frames ability. This goes on until the frame gets a rework. Now, let's say the ability supplemented is no longer necessary. So you remove it, as DE said we could. Now let's say that a different ability gets swapped to strengthen the role the frame plays. Let's say it become stupid broken, and a nerf is issued. And now let's say the cycle repeats until there are no frames that you'd need to swap abilities on, and that the granted abilities are nerfed to the point of irrelevance. The system is obsolete.

Helminth chrysalis is poorly thought through. It's a balancing nightmare. Letting the system only grant helmith abilities lessens that nightmare and it allows for more a creative approach to temporarily solving the "every frame has at least 1 useless ability" "problem". Nothing's stopping DE from constantly adding new ones anyway, but you really have to think about WHY they came up with it in the 1st place. Not thinking critically about this leaves room for error. Think about and discuss the flaws, whether they're the ones pre-launch, on-launch, or in the future in order to prevent worse ones. It's a domino effect.

First, I don't know what ability is useless for Octavia, Gara, and other frames that don't have useless abilities.

Second, you can conduct a lot of thought experiments in the world of pink unicorns, but there are a couple of facts that you miss.

1) Reworks come very rarely and are just as rarely good.

2) Nothing prevents you from returning the standard ability. So if rework has occurred, then you can do it. On the other hand, you might not do this because you might not like one of the new standard abilities, not because it's useless, but because you just don't like it. So here the system offers a means of customization, which gives you a chance to create something individual and suitable for a person. And new frames will come out and people will try their abilities. So no, the system will never get outdated.

3) Balance. Balance. Balance. Stop talking about balance. If you interview people in other games, you will always find 1-2 people who will say that there is no balance in that game. On the other hand, I see that every person on this forum has their own balance, because we all live in parallel worlds and never play the same warframe. The problem is that when people talk about balance, they only mean their subjective opinion. And imagine, there is a subjective opinion that Gara needs a buff because she can't do anything, you know? The balance is a number that you won't be able to get until you start the tests.

[selig_fay]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Yep, they only seem to rework things that are overly effective these days (Blade Storm, World on Fire, Simulor, and Pablo said he be will looking at Spores again) but ignore the bottom tier stuff. Atlas Prime access came and went without so much as a glance. My fingers are still crossed for Hydroid getting a rework with his Deluxe but not holding my breath.

I think that the rework will happen in any case. I think this system will give more data about which abilities people use more. I just don't think they have that much time to make reworks for all the frames, who need it. 

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

Just a thought to turn over, but what about Chrysalis with passives (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Passives/Warframe) instead (as a concept) since in-game passive descriptions aren't usually attached to frames, like:

Quote

"Become invulnerable for a brief moment after shields are depleted. This ability is restored when shields recharge." -- Hildryn

"Overshield cap doubled." -- Harrow

*usually = some, like Korra's Venari, are.

[PR0JAX]

Sure, DE is going to have to make some specific changes for frames like Limbo and add restrictions to not let this get out of hand, but reworks and this new system are not mutually exclusive.  They can still work on both.

Are you really satisfied with waiting another 3, 4, or 5+ years for a specific frame to get a rework?  At least this gives us options.

I don't understand the talk surrounding the meta either.  There are multiple frames I can use right now that are literally invulnerable or room clearing gods.  Adding Volt's shock to a different frame isn't really going to change that fact overnight.  Especially if they aren't utilizing their so-called signature abilities yet.

Most of the concern seems less about "balance" and more about "I don't like seeing someone else with [x] abilities, they're not playing the way I would".

You can also totally ignore this system and use the standard abilities too, if that floats your orbiter.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

36 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I think that the rework will happen in any case. I think this system will give more data about which abilities people use more. I just don't think they have that much time to make reworks for all the frames, who need it. 

Good news! I just read from another post that it is confirmed they are in fact using this system as the opportunity to rework the bad abilities! So I admit I was wrong and my fear may have been misplaced. (There's still time for these changes to be useless though. lol)

Starting at 43:50.

 

[Proscriptor]

are we going to learn exactly which abilities will be donatable soon?

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

I have a question. Am I wrong in thinking that a Warframe's ability set is relevant to its identity? Because I'm under the belief that each frame is meant to be unique, and that's kinda what I'm concerned about -- infusion posing a risk to, even overwriting that identity.

Or maybe I'm just worried about nothing.

For the record, balance has little-to-nothing to do with my concern.

[Blexander]

28 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

1) Reworks come very rarely and are just as rarely good.

Objectively false. The speed of reworks in only determined by DE's willingness or community pressure. We got 2 reworks at once, remember? As to whether they're good or not, that's on you and is entirely subjective.

21 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

3) Balance. Balance. Balance. Stop talking about balance. If you interview people in other games, you will always find 1-2 people who will say that there is no balance in that game. On the other hand, I see that every person on this forum has their own balance, because we all live in parallel worlds and never play the same warframe. The problem is that when people talk about balance, they only mean their subjective opinion. And imagine, there is a subjective opinion that Gara needs a buff because she can't do anything, you know? The balance is a number that you won't be able to get until you start the tests.

The community doesn't know what it wants, and neither does DE. Like, I saw, not enough people are talking about future-proofing this system. The people saying "there's no balance" don't know what balance means. And for once, you're right, everybody has their subjective take on balance. My take is that I don't want to see the same frame with the same setup in every mission because it's the most efficient, and not most popular/the player likes playing them that way. I don't see any Hildryn's in Tridolon.

36 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

First, I don't know what ability is useless for Octavia, Gara, and other frames that don't have useless abilities.

Doesn't matter a single bit. Rather, it just proves my point that DE don't want to look at frames and abilities that need fixing.

41 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Second, you can conduct a lot of thought experiments in the world of pink unicorns, but there are a couple of facts that you miss.

You should've lead with this before. Maybe don't step into a debate if aren't willing to look at potential issues.

By all means, enjoy the update and play the game however you want, but don't try to join a discourse if you can't preemptively look at potential issues. I'm genuinely tired from try to get through to you.

 

Just now, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

I have a question. How relevant is a Warframe's ability set to its identity? Because I'm under the belief that each frame is meant to be unique, and that's kinda what I'm concerned about.

Or maybe I'm just worried about nothing.

We don't actually know, considering this system is coming soon. I'm under the same impression, hell, I assumed DE is as well if you look at Grendel, who's whole kit revolves around Devour, which so happens to be his "signature" ability, I guess.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

Updated my last post, Blex.

[chaotea]

2 hours ago, wargthewarg said:

That is true but some of the weak abilities given out are far better than others. And may work a lot better with a different kit.

On Shy's stream yesterday Rebecca mentioned that some of the worse abilities would see some changes when this goes live. She mentioned Zephyr's 2 as an example. So that will also be interesting to see some of the terrible abilities getting a facelift. I still don't think I want to keep Zephyr's 2 when almost anything on offer should be better.

Didnt see the stream, but thats good to know. Most of those 1st abilities are all but useless, unless they carry some particular synergy with other powers (Zephyrs 2 is a good example, as its only used to buff tornados).

As a side note, i want DE to add Super Jump to the helmiths abilities 😄 #bringbacksuperjump

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, Blexander said:

You should've lead with this before. Maybe don't step into a debate if aren't willing to look at potential issues.

By all means, enjoy the update and play the game however you want, but don't try to join a discourse if you can't preemptively look at potential issues. I'm genuinely tired from try to get through to you.

You didn't mention any potential problems. You just said it would either be broken or useless. I might as well say that this will be normal. At the moment, I don't see any examples or counterarguments that the moult will be broken with any frame. 

But Yes, you have raised concerns about reworks, but this has nothing to do with the current system. There will be a rework, the system will be updated, maybe even the ability will be replaced, this is not the problem of this topic.

7 minutes ago, Blexander said:

I don't see any Hildryn's in Tridolon.

You don't play much random.

[selig_fay]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Good news! I just read from another post that it is confirmed they are in fact using this system as the opportunity to rework the bad abilities! So I admit I was wrong and my fear may have been misplaced. (There's still time for these changes to be useless though. lol)

This is really good news.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

4 hours ago, -CoI-IAmNotMatthew said:

Signature abilities are "signature" for a reason.

Most of them are signature abilities, so you will get one regardless. The only one you can get is the one that isn't as obviously connected to the warframes theme. Of course some frames have nothing but abilities fitting for their theme, so they just take the most useless ability.

As an example, if rhino charge on rhino isn't a signature ability, then it isn't much of a rhino. Iron skin could be too strong (= too useful) and if i understood correctly, you can't get 4 abilities so no stomp. Only one left is roar, the not so obvious one.

[ChaoticEdge]

I am only 1/10 hype but there is expectation of it then there is that sweet word "Doubt" for what could possibility it is going be like bugging out like crazy?

[PR0JAX]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

I have a question. Am I wrong in thinking that a Warframe's ability set is relevant to its identity? Because I'm under the belief that each frame is meant to be unique, and that's kinda what I'm concerned about -- infusion posing a risk to, even overwriting that identity.

Or maybe I'm just worried about nothing.

I totally get where you're coming from.  Abilities are a big part of what makes a frame unique.  However, the vanilla frames aren't going away any time soon.  You still have to grind for them and get familiar with their defaults before you even get a chance to sacrifice them.  And there's nothing stopping you from keeping their identity "intact".

Maybe it's just me, but I honestly don't care what other people do with their frames.  When you've invested as much time as I have into this game, the different combinations it will enable sounds like a breath of fresh air.

We'll have to wait and see how this whole thing ultimately shakes out.

[Blexander]

4 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

You didn't mention any potential problems. You just said it would either be broken or useless.

Is... Is that NOT a problem in your eyes? Adding a system that either leaves you behind if you don't conform to the meta it makes, or is insignificant to the point where it's used only temporarily and then becomes obsolete? And also, I did mention a much more important problem, as in, reworks being made much slower if at all

7 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

t the moment, I don't see any examples or counterarguments that the moult will be broken with any frame. 

.That's because DE made sure to NOT give us access to the actually good abilities. But if you look at the comments, as soon as they heard "no signature abilities, no 4ths" they all of a sudden went "aw that's too bad, this isn't going to be as great as I wanted it to be". With enough pressure, the community might just get their wish and have access to ALL abilities. It's happened before.

9 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

But Yes, you have raised concerns about reworks, but this has nothing to do with the current system. There will be a rework, the system will be updated, maybe even the ability will be replaced, this is not the problem of this topic.

You can't know that for sure, plus you're being way too optimistic. You yourself said that reworks take too long. If a system comes in that lets frames with bad kits have a single better ability that makes them more viable/playable, well, what's the rush in getting a rework out. Worst case, scenario, they let us have more than 1 ability and then DE kick their feet up on the desk and say "yup, these frames are good now, no need to look at them anymore".

12 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

You don't play much random.

Why would I? I'm not fond of leechers and people who leave on the 1st rotation.

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

Good news! I just read from another post that it is confirmed they are in fact using this system as the opportunity to rework the bad abilities!

And they took an idea to note: augments for the least used warframes during nightwave season will be integrated into the abilties, also creating new augments

I really hope Valkyr will get some love. Meanwhile If Trinity's donation power will be link, I think I can do some really intresting things with it.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

4 minutes ago, NoLazyShadow said:

And they took an idea to note: augments for the least used warframes during nightwave season will be integrated into the abilties, also creating new augments

I really hope Valkyr will get some love. Meanwhile If Trinity's donation power will be link, I think I can do some really intresting things with it.

Wait really? I missed that. That is awesome, we were pushing for DE to do that in another thread not long ago.

[Marvelous_A]

I think fire walker is already decent enough ability for most frames. It provides bonus movement speed and also status immunity. Molt too if you are willing to trade one slot for the augment.

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

Wait really? I missed that

It was on twitter week or two before tennocon if I recall

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 minute ago, NoLazyShadow said:

It was on twitter week or two before tennocon if I recall

Nice! I'm trying to search for it. I don't use twitter so I only find out about their twitter info from the forums lol.

[TennoSimons]

On 2020-08-03 at 6:05 AM, Wolfdoggie said:

 

If only it just worked skin-wise so I could play Ash Koga but have all of Volt's skills and stats though. Replacing only 1 skill on Ash isn't going to untrashify him.

 

My thoughts exactly

[Proscriptor]

here's what i have so far, i think it's already pretty clear what we're getting. there seems to be the most clarity regarding the most promising abilities, so there shouldn't be any major surprises on the 14th

LKD + CNF = 98% certain

LKD + PRD = 90% certain

just PRD = 60-85% certain (depending if there's also a white ability or not)

conflicting data on 2 abilities = 98% not the remaining ability

	1	2	3	4	source
Ash	LKD PRD Seeking Shuriken +	OPW Smoke Shadow	SIG Fatal Teleport	Rising Storm
Atlas	SIG Path of Statues	LKD PRD Tectonic Fracture	Ore Gaze	Rumbled Titanic Rumbler
Banshee	PRD Sonic Fracture	SIG Resonance	LKD Savage Silence +	Resonating Quake
Baruuk	SIG NA	LKD PRD Endless Lullaby	NA	Reactive Storm
Chroma	PRD Afterburn	Everlasting Ward	SIG Vexing Retaliation	Guided Effigy
Ember	LKD PRD Fireball Frenzy ++	SIG Immolated Radiance	Healing Flame Purifying Flames	Exothermic
Equinox ?FDG?	SIG Duality	PRD Calm & Frenzy	Peaceful Provocation	Energy Transfer
Excalibur	LKD PRD Purging Slash Surging Dash	OPW Radiant Finish	Furious Javelin	Chromatic Blade
Frost	Freeze Force	LKD CNF Ice Wave Impedance	SIG Chilling Globe	Icy Avalanche	tennocon
Gara	SIG NA	Mending Splinters	LKD PRD Spectrosiphon	NA
Garuda	SIG Dread Ward	LKD NA	PRD Blood Forge	NA
Gauss	PRD NA	SIG NA	LKD SIG NA ++	NA
Grendel FDG	PRD NA	LKD SIG NA +	SIG NA	Catapult
Harrow	LKD PRD Tribunal	NA	SIG Warding Thurible	Lasting Covenant
Hildryn ?FDG?	SIG Balefire Surge	SIG Blazing Pillage	PRD NA	NA
Hydroid	LKD PRD Corroding Barrage	Tidal Impunity	Curative Undertow	Pilfering Swarm
Inaros	LKD CNF Desiccation's Curse	NA	Elemental Sandstorm	Negation Swarm	tennocon china
Ivara	SIG Empowered Quiver Power of Three	PRD Piercing Navigator	SIG Infiltrate	Concentrated Arrow
Khora	SIG Accumulating Whipclaw	LKD PRD NA +	SIG Venari Bodyguard	Pilfering Strangledome
Limbo FDG	LKD PRD SIG Rift Haven	SIG NA	SIG Rift Torrent	Cataclysmic Continuum
Loki	SIG Deceptive Bond Savior Decoy	OPW Hushed Invisibility	LKD PRD Safeguard Switch	Irradiating Disarm
Mag	LKD CNF Greedy Pull +	SIG Magnetized Discharge	Counter Pulse	Fracturing Crush	tennocon
Mesa	PRD Ballistic Bullseye	LKD Muzzle Flash	OPW Staggering Shield	Mesa's Waltz
Mirage	SIG Hall of Malevolence	LKD PRD Explosive Legerdemain	SIG Total Eclipse	Prism Guard
Nekros	PRD Soul Survivor	LKD Creeping Terrify	SIG Despoil	Shield of Shadows
Nezha	LKD CNF Pyroclastic Flow +	Reaping Chakram	SIG Safeguard	NA	pablo twitter
Nidus	SIG Teeming Virulence	LKD SIG Larva Burst ++	SIG NA	Insatiable
Nova	OPW Neutron Star	OPW Antimatter Absorb	LKD PRD Escape Velocity	Molecular Fission
Nyx	PRD Mind Freak	LKD OPW Pacifying Bolts +	OPW Chaos Sphere	Assimilate Singularity
Oberon	LKD PRD Smite Infusion ++	Hallowed Eruption	SIG Phoenix Renewal	Hallowed Reckoning
Octavia	SIG Partitioned Mallet	PRD Conductor	OPW NA	NA
Protea	LKD PRD NA ++	SIG NA	OPW NA	NA
Revenant	PRD NA	NA	LKD Blinding Reave	NA
Rhino	LKD PRD Ironclad Charge	SIG Iron Shrapnel	OPW Piercing Roar	Reinforcing Stomp
Saryn	SIG Revealing Spores Venom Dose	CNF Regenerative Molt +	LKD OPW Contagion Cloud ++	NA	pablo twitter
Titania	PRD Spellbound Harvest	NA	LKD Beguiling Lantern	Razorwing Blitz
Trinity	LKD PRD Pool of Life	SIG Vampire Leech	OPW Abating Link	NA
Valkyr	LKD PRD Swing Line	OPW Eternal War	Prolonged Paralysis	Enraged Hysterical Assault
Vauban	PRD Tesla Bank	SIG NA	LKD Photon Repeater	Repelling Bastille
Volt	LKD CNF Shock Trooper ++	SIG Shocking Speed	OPW Recharge Barrier Transistor Shield	Capacitance	tennocon
Wisp	SIG NA	PRD NA	NA	NA
Wukong ?FDG?	SIG Celestial Stomp	PRD Enveloping Cloud	NA	Primal Rage	tennocon china
Xaku	PRD NA	OPW NA	NA	NA
Zephyr FDG	SIG Target Fixation	CNF LKD PRD NA	OPW Jet Stream	Funnel Clouds	reb shy stream
CNF	"confirmed" (not yet really: seen in dev build, mentioned by de on twitter etc.)
LKD	4chan rumored leak (i have it from 2nd hand)
PRD	community prediction (discord mainly, multiple people)
SIG	signature ability, frame-specific mechanic, custom ui element
OPW	too powerful
NA	just means no augment (only augment names included so they don't mix with base names)
purple border	candidate for replacement (community analysis, multiple people)
"++"	very good ability
"+"	good ability
FDG	"fudged"/buffed (in line with what pablo said on twitter, and rebecca in shy's stream)

[(PSN)Svenx13]

I hope DE know what they are doing with that system.

Replacing unwanted ability with other abilitys sounds nice & fun. But allowing the use of augments. That will break the balance of many frames. 

The augment elemental buffs from volt, ember, frost, Oberon would be an insane DMG buff on frames like mesa, chroma or Excalibur.

I fear the helminth system will only last one week before it will be nerfed.

I mean the Xoris was nerfed because of the good synergy with some Warframe abilitys. But now they want to implement such an synergy disaster.

Sometimes I really want to know what the devs are thinking.

 

 

 

[Ardhanarishvara]

20 hours ago, Nuhauskis said:

I think that realistically, most of the older warframes like Rhino, Volt, and Loki will not give anything too useful (Their 1 abilities) ...

Oh, but therein lies the fun, as the devs have confirmed that transferred abilities can use their respective augments... and both Rhino and Volt's 1's both have very useful augments. Just imagine swapping out Firewalker for Rhino Charge, then using Ironclad Charge to supercharge Nezha's armour before casting his 3. Beautiful. It's the same general concept as using it on Rhino for Ironskin.