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Discussion and Feedback on the Helminth Chrysalis - The most shocking feature ever revealed?


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1 minute ago, Blexander said:
Amazing. I did not expect this bad of a take.

Let's put it another way. Each frame is unique, but I can really love part of the frame's uniqueness and hate the rest. So, it makes sense to inherit the unique ability of another frame to replace what I hate, instead of waiting for rework or a new frame that may never appear. So I'll just create a new uniqueness that I like better. 

And there is nothing wrong with this. Crossout quite lives with modular technologies as a pvp game.

 

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Well we will get singature abilities no matter what, since it isnt like whatever skill we get wont directly be noticed to come from X frame. I think what DE ment is simply that "signature" skills are those that are part of the root of a frame. For Khora that is obviously Venari, while possibly Whipclaw also is part of that due to flavor, which leave entangle that is more a generic ability fluffwise.

Then we have Wukong where they seem to have picked the clone as the skill he'll give us. One could see it as the signature and find it an odd choice, but we have to remember it hasnt been part of his OG kit while both cloud walker and defy has, while defy also incorporates his iron staff.

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11 минут назад, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

huge leap between most frames and the few most useful ones

myes, so as i see it, DE simply gave up on making certain frames... more usable than the others.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:
I agree with that, and it was one of the issues I brought up. The versatility of this system is mostly artificial since there will only be a small handful of abilities that players will be using on most of their frames whereas the rest are generally unused. Not shockingly, the same applies to warframe usage in general, where there is a huge leap between most frames and the few most useful ones. In the end both of these come down to the same issues; How do their abilities stack up against other frames'?

As I have already written, this problem is easy to solve. Just create a block list for abilities on certain frames and the problem is solved. Similar augments can also be blocked as the elemental damage boosts. 

On the other hand, Chroma with a lot of damage? I think a lot of players will prefer CC because that's what Chroma really needs. I personally don't care what happens to the new Eidolon hunt meta. This is not a big part of the game.

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On 2020-08-02 at 5:25 PM, (PS4)SummoningRaziel said:

Spores on a Slowva sound fun. 

Pocket sand Ash is going to be amazing. 

Might mess with a Vex Armor Inaros. 

Mesa's shatter shield would be helpful on many squishy frames. 

Might replace Embers 1 with Energy Vampire. 

Frost will really benefit from getting is 1 and 2 replaced. Maybe a wisp ability?

Mesmer Skin OP. 

 

Yeah you won't get any of those.

You'll get Saryn's molt

You'll get Chroma's fire breath

You'll get Mesa's 1 (forgot name)

You'll get Trinity's Well of Life (which is gonna be interesting on tank frames)

You'll get Wisp's clone/teleport

Revenant's fog wall.

They already said no signature/ultimate abilities, so yeah, most useful abilities will come from Octavia/Protea/Hildryn/Garuda/Trinity and maybe Khora/Limbo/Wukong/Harrow/Grendel so I suggest farming for those if you want useful abilities to be ready when the update comes

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2 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Let's put it another way. Each frame is unique, but I can really love part of the frame's uniqueness and hate the rest. So, it makes sense to inherit the unique ability of another frame to replace what I hate, instead of waiting for rework or a new frame that may never appear. So I'll just create a new uniqueness that I like better. 

No, that's not making a new uniqueness, that's called streamlining. Every frame has a flaw, it'd be stupid if they didn't. If every frame could have their holes plugged, then you'd see a massive surge in "H [X mission] LF [Y frame] with [Z ability]". Let's do a thought experiment:

Let's say the helminth chrysalis system isn't a massive failure, and it ushers in an age of less frequent reworks, without strictly stopping them from happening. In the meantime, a frame desperate for a rework gets it kit supplemented with another frames ability. This goes on until the frame gets a rework. Now, let's say the ability supplemented is no longer necessary. So you remove it, as DE said we could. Now let's say that a different ability gets swapped to strengthen the role the frame plays. Let's say it become stupid broken, and a nerf is issued. And now let's say the cycle repeats until there are no frames that you'd need to swap abilities on, and that the granted abilities are nerfed to the point of irrelevance. The system is obsolete.

 

Helminth chrysalis is poorly thought through. It's a balancing nightmare. Letting the system only grant helmith abilities lessens that nightmare and it allows for more a creative approach to temporarily solving the "every frame has at least 1 useless ability" "problem". Nothing's stopping DE from constantly adding new ones anyway, but you really have to think about WHY they came up with it in the 1st place. Not thinking critically about this leaves room for error. Think about and discuss the flaws, whether they're the ones pre-launch, on-launch, or in the future in order to prevent worse ones. It's a domino effect.

20 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

And there is nothing wrong with this. Crossout quite lives with modular technologies as a pvp game.

Crossout and Warframe are 2 entirely different games with 2 entirely different types on customization. Modular frames break lore and make prime version of said frames impossible.

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7 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

this problem is easy to solve

DE's easy solution has always been to pretend the problem doesn't exist, which is what they're likely doing. The correct answer is to actually fix abilities to begin with so they don't become obsolete.

For example, if an ability only does damage (Shuriken) then it won't be used when you have access to far more damage (Blade Storm) more effectively. In this example, adding something like a disarm effect gives Shuriken a purpose that scales better.

Almost all abilities on newer and reworked abilities do several things, where older frames are still stuck with their traditional one-trick-ponies in most cases so they don't see much use and there isn't a lot they can contribute to newer and more advanced kits through Helminth that would be better than what those newer frames already have inherently.

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Maybe you should rename the topic into 'people's reactions and delutical expectation from Heminth Chrysalis system'. So far I see no real problem with the system.

 

Только что, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- сказал:

Almost all abilities on newer and reworked abilities do several things, where older frames are still stuck with their traditional one-trick-ponies in most cases so they don't see much use and there isn't a lot they can contribute to newer and more advanced kits through Helminth that would be better than what those newer frames already have inherently.

Thats the problem with reworks - old frames like Valkyr spend years wating for changes, yet they aren't coming because people still use her and DE has other things to do.

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You are probably worrying too much. Helminth might provides few useful abilities and the rest will be useless. DE update just works that way.

Edited by Marvelous_A
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3 minutes ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Maybe you should rename the topic into 'people's reactions and delutical expectation from Heminth Chrysalis system'. So far I see no real problem with the system.

 

Thats the problem with reworks - old frames like Valkyr spend years wating for changes, yet they aren't coming because people still use her and DE has other things to do.

Yep, they only seem to rework things that are overly effective these days (Blade Storm, World on Fire, Simulor, and Pablo said he be will looking at Spores again) but ignore the bottom tier stuff. Atlas Prime access came and went without so much as a glance. My fingers are still crossed for Hydroid getting a rework with his Deluxe but not holding my breath.

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2 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Let's do a thought experiment:

Let's say the helminth chrysalis system isn't a massive failure, and it ushers in an age of less frequent reworks, without strictly stopping them from happening. In the meantime, a frame desperate for a rework gets it kit supplemented with another frames ability. This goes on until the frame gets a rework. Now, let's say the ability supplemented is no longer necessary. So you remove it, as DE said we could. Now let's say that a different ability gets swapped to strengthen the role the frame plays. Let's say it become stupid broken, and a nerf is issued. And now let's say the cycle repeats until there are no frames that you'd need to swap abilities on, and that the granted abilities are nerfed to the point of irrelevance. The system is obsolete.

Helminth chrysalis is poorly thought through. It's a balancing nightmare. Letting the system only grant helmith abilities lessens that nightmare and it allows for more a creative approach to temporarily solving the "every frame has at least 1 useless ability" "problem". Nothing's stopping DE from constantly adding new ones anyway, but you really have to think about WHY they came up with it in the 1st place. Not thinking critically about this leaves room for error. Think about and discuss the flaws, whether they're the ones pre-launch, on-launch, or in the future in order to prevent worse ones. It's a domino effect.

First, I don't know what ability is useless for Octavia, Gara, and other frames that don't have useless abilities.

Second, you can conduct a lot of thought experiments in the world of pink unicorns, but there are a couple of facts that you miss.

1) Reworks come very rarely and are just as rarely good.

2) Nothing prevents you from returning the standard ability. So if rework has occurred, then you can do it. On the other hand, you might not do this because you might not like one of the new standard abilities, not because it's useless, but because you just don't like it. So here the system offers a means of customization, which gives you a chance to create something individual and suitable for a person. And new frames will come out and people will try their abilities. So no, the system will never get outdated.

3) Balance. Balance. Balance. Stop talking about balance. If you interview people in other games, you will always find 1-2 people who will say that there is no balance in that game. On the other hand, I see that every person on this forum has their own balance, because we all live in parallel worlds and never play the same warframe. The problem is that when people talk about balance, they only mean their subjective opinion. And imagine, there is a subjective opinion that Gara needs a buff because she can't do anything, you know? The balance is a number that you won't be able to get until you start the tests.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:
Yep, they only seem to rework things that are overly effective these days (Blade Storm, World on Fire, Simulor, and Pablo said he be will looking at Spores again) but ignore the bottom tier stuff. Atlas Prime access came and went without so much as a glance. My fingers are still crossed for Hydroid getting a rework with his Deluxe but not holding my breath.

I think that the rework will happen in any case. I think this system will give more data about which abilities people use more. I just don't think they have that much time to make reworks for all the frames, who need it. 

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Just a thought to turn over, but what about Chrysalis with passives (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Passives/Warframe) instead (as a concept) since in-game passive descriptions aren't usually attached to frames, like:

Quote

"Become invulnerable for a brief moment after shields are depleted. This ability is restored when shields recharge." -- Hildryn

"Overshield cap doubled." -- Harrow

*usually = some, like Korra's Venari, are.

Edited by (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk
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Sure, DE is going to have to make some specific changes for frames like Limbo and add restrictions to not let this get out of hand, but reworks and this new system are not mutually exclusive.  They can still work on both.

Are you really satisfied with waiting another 3, 4, or 5+ years for a specific frame to get a rework?  At least this gives us options.

I don't understand the talk surrounding the meta either.  There are multiple frames I can use right now that are literally invulnerable or room clearing gods.  Adding Volt's shock to a different frame isn't really going to change that fact overnight.  Especially if they aren't utilizing their so-called signature abilities yet.

Most of the concern seems less about "balance" and more about "I don't like seeing someone else with [x] abilities, they're not playing the way I would".

You can also totally ignore this system and use the standard abilities too, if that floats your orbiter.

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36 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I think that the rework will happen in any case. I think this system will give more data about which abilities people use more. I just don't think they have that much time to make reworks for all the frames, who need it. 

Good news! I just read from another post that it is confirmed they are in fact using this system as the opportunity to rework the bad abilities! So I admit I was wrong and my fear may have been misplaced. (There's still time for these changes to be useless though. lol)

Starting at 43:50.

 

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I have a question. Am I wrong in thinking that a Warframe's ability set is relevant to its identity? Because I'm under the belief that each frame is meant to be unique, and that's kinda what I'm concerned about -- infusion posing a risk to, even overwriting that identity.

Or maybe I'm just worried about nothing.

For the record, balance has little-to-nothing to do with my concern.

Edited by (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk
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28 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

1) Reworks come very rarely and are just as rarely good.

Objectively false. The speed of reworks in only determined by DE's willingness or community pressure. We got 2 reworks at once, remember? As to whether they're good or not, that's on you and is entirely subjective.

21 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

3) Balance. Balance. Balance. Stop talking about balance. If you interview people in other games, you will always find 1-2 people who will say that there is no balance in that game. On the other hand, I see that every person on this forum has their own balance, because we all live in parallel worlds and never play the same warframe. The problem is that when people talk about balance, they only mean their subjective opinion. And imagine, there is a subjective opinion that Gara needs a buff because she can't do anything, you know? The balance is a number that you won't be able to get until you start the tests.

The community doesn't know what it wants, and neither does DE. Like, I saw, not enough people are talking about future-proofing this system. The people saying "there's no balance" don't know what balance means. And for once, you're right, everybody has their subjective take on balance. My take is that I don't want to see the same frame with the same setup in every mission because it's the most efficient, and not most popular/the player likes playing them that way. I don't see any Hildryn's in Tridolon.

36 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

First, I don't know what ability is useless for Octavia, Gara, and other frames that don't have useless abilities.

Doesn't matter a single bit. Rather, it just proves my point that DE don't want to look at frames and abilities that need fixing.

41 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Second, you can conduct a lot of thought experiments in the world of pink unicorns, but there are a couple of facts that you miss.

You should've lead with this before. Maybe don't step into a debate if aren't willing to look at potential issues.

By all means, enjoy the update and play the game however you want, but don't try to join a discourse if you can't preemptively look at potential issues. I'm genuinely tired from try to get through to you.

 

Just now, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

I have a question. How relevant is a Warframe's ability set to its identity? Because I'm under the belief that each frame is meant to be unique, and that's kinda what I'm concerned about.

Or maybe I'm just worried about nothing.

We don't actually know, considering this system is coming soon. I'm under the same impression, hell, I assumed DE is as well if you look at Grendel, who's whole kit revolves around Devour, which so happens to be his "signature" ability, I guess.

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2 hours ago, wargthewarg said:

That is true but some of the weak abilities given out are far better than others. And may work a lot better with a different kit.

On Shy's stream yesterday Rebecca mentioned that some of the worse abilities would see some changes when this goes live. She mentioned Zephyr's 2 as an example. So that will also be interesting to see some of the terrible abilities getting a facelift. I still don't think I want to keep Zephyr's 2 when almost anything on offer should be better.

Didnt see the stream, but thats good to know. Most of those 1st abilities are all but useless, unless they carry some particular synergy with other powers (Zephyrs 2 is a good example, as its only used to buff tornados).

As a side note, i want DE to add Super Jump to the helmiths abilities 😄 #bringbacksuperjump

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2 minutes ago, Blexander said:

You should've lead with this before. Maybe don't step into a debate if aren't willing to look at potential issues.

By all means, enjoy the update and play the game however you want, but don't try to join a discourse if you can't preemptively look at potential issues. I'm genuinely tired from try to get through to you.

You didn't mention any potential problems. You just said it would either be broken or useless. I might as well say that this will be normal. At the moment, I don't see any examples or counterarguments that the moult will be broken with any frame. 

But Yes, you have raised concerns about reworks, but this has nothing to do with the current system. There will be a rework, the system will be updated, maybe even the ability will be replaced, this is not the problem of this topic.

7 minutes ago, Blexander said:

I don't see any Hildryn's in Tridolon.

You don't play much random.

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24 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:
Good news! I just read from another post that it is confirmed they are in fact using this system as the opportunity to rework the bad abilities! So I admit I was wrong and my fear may have been misplaced. (There's still time for these changes to be useless though. lol)

This is really good news.

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4 hours ago, -CoI-IAmNotMatthew said:

Signature abilities are "signature" for a reason.

Most of them are signature abilities, so you will get one regardless. The only one you can get is the one that isn't as obviously connected to the warframes theme. Of course some frames have nothing but abilities fitting for their theme, so they just take the most useless ability.

As an example, if rhino charge on rhino isn't a signature ability, then it isn't much of a rhino. Iron skin could be too strong (= too useful) and if i understood correctly, you can't get 4 abilities so no stomp. Only one left is roar, the not so obvious one.

Edited by (PS4)Yggranya
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