Still no end game?

[BernieBlack]

22 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

to rep up my previous comment ; if DE wants to keep the braindead ai then at least give us meaningful rewards or they can choose the ai overhaul .. or even both but ehh .. i personally wouldnt bet on that possibility to even occur knowing the track record.

Oh but you haven't heard, we're not supposed to want rewards. /s

The thing is DE nailed rewards before with the sortie drop table that rotates and raids when they existed, but they steered away from it and went into factions that you just grind until you have no reason to come back. I think they're scared if they don't pump more grind into the game people will leave, and now its a literal numbers game but they don't seem to realize that they're just piling onto the wall for new players to get over and its just daunting. Just stop and think for a moment what all a new player would have to grind to get to where their veteran friends are.

I think if they walked away from the number grinding a bit and embraced better sortie-like drop tables that you can just click on the nission tab and do once a day (like other popular mmos) people would have a better reason to come back.

[Lutesque]

41 minutes ago, BernieBlack said:

Oh but you haven't heard, we're not supposed to want rewards. /s

Exactly 😉

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Well the rewards thing is always gonna be a divisive topic. Its needs more nuanced questions. And there are too many people wanting specific things which are all different.

At the end of the day, it's still up to DE to decide what to "give us".

For example, it's kinda clear DE does not want to give out Umbra formas like candy. Using all 3 of the set mods can basically turn you into a "God" and I think they dont want people reaching that stage too soon for a buncha frames. I put 2 umbras on my saryn, and now she can have 800 armor along with high strength and range. Its awesome, but it also took forever to build that.

We should be asking DE "What are some things you would give us leeway on?"

And also which demographics of the players are we referring to? That's where it gets tricky as well: After awhile of playing, and especially after Plague Star, I went from needing formas every day to barely needing formas.....

There are a couple things where once you hit a certain point in the game, you don't need certain things, while many others still need those things.

And what kind of rewards? Cosmetic? Mod related? Pet related? Resources? Boosters? New weapons? Arcanes? 

It's just a really messy topic because who is gonna decide what kinda rewards and how many are given. 

[killerJoke66]

with the current set of resources mods and other rewards , doesnt give you a specific edge in the tilesets when you think about it , let me open up ; 
- arcanes , less than 10 of them are barely good and yes im also counting energize because there are frames that dont even need it or are rage/hunter adrenaline users
- kuva/riven rewards ; seen as endgame rewards by some people , in reality one can very easily kill +400 level mobs and do bosses without them , again no clear cut edge
- endo/ayatans ; you only need them fair enough in mid-game , or sometimes for maxing primed mods from baro to sell it , is okay 
- cosmetics; are not endgame , decorations arent endgame too , floofs are in there as well go next 
- reskinned weapon phenomena (opticor vandal/kuva weapons) ; i dont know what to say about this , theyre lietrally just cosmetics with not much difference impact in game , kuva nukor or pre-nerf bramma are just preferences , we were fine without them anyway , no f's given

* personal input as an example of what they could give as new power level they could play with ;(not a demand or all knowing attitude , it came to my mind as i was writing above list) 
- right now we have augmented mods for certain frames  , say with a newer endgame-ish activity give us an upper version of a frames augment , add an additonal effect on top of existing one , and you can make this 1 - 2- 3 , third one would need extra 8 forma slots to enable its existence for capacity(maybe for balance purposes and cashes for DE so why not :p) 
- maybe adding extra mod slot additional to the normal 8 as standard  for both weapons and frames ,that you can stack of course (yes it would be powercreep but hey , just an idea)

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

Tbh de could have done something with dog days could have made like summer winter and spring versions of dog days on earth and I think and not make them a limited time think. Personally I think that would be a good end game.

[killerJoke66]

well yes that would add to the so called 'power creep' (referring to my previous post) , since it seems from observations over the years  near 60% of wf community doesnt like challenge from ai , then why not embrace full power fantasy while we're at it  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  , i think going saiyan mode with those upgraded augment mods could be interesting 😈

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

10 hours ago, BernieBlack said:

This is what I mean. Don't read post, throw in generic repeated response. Go to any other online game with "endgame" raids or dungeons or dailies/weeklies. They all have rewards, be it gear or extra xp or some in game token system. 

You cant have endgame activities without rewards. Period. That's why no one plays exploiter. That's why no one bothers with anthems harder modes. If you don't understand that you don't understand game design.

Yeah yeah, because everyone who, you know, enjoys playing games for any reason other than "they are going to have to give me over the top rewards" is doing it wrong. 🙄

Here's a simple explanation for you. Make suggestions that are built around asking for something that you will enjoy doing, not something that you will enjoy getting. 

That way when you burn through it in the first day, you will still have a desire to go back and do it again. 

If you really want to bring other games into it, then you have to recognize that those endgame modes often involve abysmal drop rates for the really great rewards, and often take a lot of time to get done. Look around and you will see players whining about 10% drop rates in this game. 

But somehow, I don't think that you will be demanding that they nerf the drop rates in warframe. All you care about is immediate over the top rewards. And that's why I think that you will never find satisfaction from just playing the game. 

[nerfinator6]

Endgame is coming onto the forums and constantly making threads about how endgame doesn't exist.

 

Stop.

[Ethorin]

18 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Watching an ultra hard game play walk through on Doom Eternal/Dark Souls 3/Blood Borne doesn't make you an expert in doom eternal or on any other of those games.

Watching good players and seeing the explanation on how to use the frame grants that utility to non experienced players instantly. 

Literally not what they meant, what they meant was stuff like Taxiing newbies to the best affinity farm, handing out mods like CO or 60/60's, even, if somewhat less egregrious, stuff like giving a new player all the staples.

 

And given that I have literally seen all of those things happening...

[Felsagger]

7 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

Literally not what they meant, what they meant was stuff like Taxiing newbies to the best affinity farm, handing out mods like CO or 60/60's, even, if somewhat less egregrious, stuff like giving a new player all the staples.

 

And given that I have literally seen all of those things happening...

 

True. 100%

This is not a problem. On the contrary we are helping how to farm effectively and legally using the resources of the game without diverting the objective. New players will not get derailed by random stuff. They will get strong fast in a matter of months. I've seen better players having three months than others that have seven years in the game. Why? These players comes well informed on how the game operates. They reach veteran status faster in the game jumping all the nuances. 

[Ethorin]

10 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I've seen better players having three months than others that have seven years in the game. Why? These players comes well informed on how the game operates.

I wonder how well those players adapted to Status 2.0 or Melee 3.0... 

 

Because here's my experience with knowledge you get from "teaching" vs "finding", "taught" knowledge easily becomes dogma, "found" knowledge is a base on which you can readily add new knowledge.

[Felsagger]

10 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

I wonder how well those players adapted to Status 2.0 or Melee 3.0... 

 

Because here's my experience with knowledge you get from "teaching" vs "finding", "taught" knowledge easily becomes dogma, "found" knowledge is a base on which you can readily add new knowledge.

 

That mysticism of War Frame is over. The internet and smart players understand how to rebuild, refurbish and adapt concepts on changing conditions. It's not copy and paste anymore. Smart players who joins the game wants to understand how the mind of DE changes. In a game that is based on changing meta, we teach the new players how to read DE intentions on the game. They don't lose time searching out wrong answers. 

 

See? 

 

[GEN-Son_17]

On 2020-08-08 at 7:15 PM, Felsagger said:

Any good player can get the game in a week if he or she pays attention to youtube game guides, War Frame Market, Overframe.gg and Semlar.com. 

Skill level are games like Dark Souls, Blood Borne, Sekiro, Daemon Souls. Once players learns them of course these are easy but they requires psycho motor coordination and time reaction skills. War Frame forgives way too much even on Steel Path where the whole game is breezed with meta builds on weapons, synergy and war frame including the tenno skill tree. 

Watching an ultra hard game play walk through on Doom Eternal/Dark Souls 3/Blood Borne doesn't make you an expert in doom eternal or on any other of those games.

Watching good players and seeing the explanation on how to use the frame grants that utility to non experienced players instantly. 

The key element that makes a game challenging IS the enemy A.I. and the variety of these enemies. 

Watching others play is the real problem. If the player is sitting down and just watching all of the content and overall experience instead of immersing themselves into the game and learning over time, then the problem lies 100% on that player. I, for example, very very rarely reference any of the youtubers and only used the wiki for learning about the effects (years before the improved in game details). Because of this, my experience over time seems to be much greater because  because I needed to figure out enemy stats via scanning, boss patterns and my favorite load-out builds on my own. I can only imagine my lack of growth experience if I had watched people do it for me. That's skipping the experience. Why would I want to do that?

Finally, regarding the games you mentioned, flip the script: Dark Souls has great a.i. for such a painfully slow, quirky controlled, extremely limited enemy presence game. I can only imagine Warframe's movement system, weapon interaction and variety, spacing and combo system in Dark Souls. The a.i. would no longer be good and the game would be too short. Two different genres with Warframe offering a superior play-style for both environments but also wouldn't fit in both games.

[Felsagger]

The game War Frame is based on the oldest game we learn to play. The game of engineering. We test an hypothesis and understand the instrumentation needed for the solution. The internet changed that pace but it can't provide experience gained in testing. DE will not provide a guiding scheme for all the existing solutions on the given problem. DE will allow multiple solutions on a given problem without having preference over anyone. 

However the internet provides a mindset over the game helping the player understand the environment where the player is in. Notions and intuition are better assessed than before since youtube videos allows hyper text, writing and video recording. Of course the player must seek the solution but the difficulty is bypassed by the hardware acquired not by the skill developed. In other games the player doesn't have the acquired toolkit that this game provides. Hence the enemies have a chance of winning. 

War Frame accommodates too many types of players that are not differentiated due to the excessive power the game provides. There is no distinction between these players. The game goes 'politically correct' between these players without singling out which ones are the most profitable ones. Of course we exclude the outliers. But the case remains, where is the end game on this game? 

DE wants to establish a definite endgame? Is there a need to define an endgame? Or do we want a particular endgame out of this game? This game suggests me that endgame is the long endurance run testing the optimum output damage and regeneration in my given tools that I acquired during the game progression.  

[DoubleQuarterPounder]

You're an mr29 with 8 hydro caps, the end game is there, you're just not doing it lol

[kgabor]

8 minutes ago, DoubleQuarterPounder said:

You're an mr29 with 8 hydro caps, the end game is there, you're just not doing it lol

Eh, can't blame op for that, those are really boring.

And with the current meta amps they get oneshot anyways, hardly endgame.

[DoubleQuarterPounder]

Just now, kgabor said:

Eh, can't blame op for that, those are really boring.

And with the current meta amps they get oneshot anyways, hardly endgame.

Well, I still consider getting a 6x3 pretty endgame, it's pretty hard to pull off even if you know all the mechanics. I'm still stuck at the 5x3 level

[Fascistsonfire]

After some time, you will always run out of things to do if you are a long time player or play a high amount of hours per day. I can barely play one hour, so for me the game has endless content.

Endgame in a lot of games is doing the same stuff repeatedly, following a certain gameplay loop. Said endgame is considered good if the loop is cool. What we get in Warframe is a variety of mini gameplay loops that spams all over content and you can pick your poison.

I like it better that way, but I get it when people say they need "an endgame" - what people mean is a challenging, high level content with cool gameplay loop and cool rewards, but even then, that will eventually become part of the "oh I ran out of things to do".

And that's exactly what's happening and what will always happen in a F2P that keeps releasing content patches - eventually the content of the patch, which is akin to a new endgame activity, will wear thin. 

However, Warframe has been going for years and DE keeps releasing new, fun content, for potentially no financial return in some cases(not everyone spends plat, but I know a lot people do too). You can see the amount of passion and dedication they put into this game.

You can read a 1000-page book in a day or in weeks. It's still the same book and the same length. The point being: players will always outpace content. The amount of time it takes to write a 1000-page book is nowhere near the same time it takes to read it, and the same happens here.

Some people finished Steel Path in a day or two. Some people will finish Deimos in a week or two, depending on standing limitations. Maybe it will take less. It will still be a big patch with loads of content. These people will then complain about not having an endgame. 

TL;DR: People's expectations are unrealistic. I suggest, if we want an endgame, that we start considering options and brainstorming ideas of what would be an interesting, reward, non-repetitive endgame activity. 

[(PSN)NeunDrachen]

Considering its a free mmorpg, endgame will never be a thing until de decides to make a conclusion to the story. Once that happens, thats it, warframe is finished. Just look at any online mmo. None of them have an endgame that doesnt involve something like pvp and in a game like this where youre meant to have a power fantasy, pvp isnt an option. 

Saying you want an endgame should be a sign its time to move on from warframe and find something else to play. It might not be the answer youd like but its the truth.

Cause lets face it, the community is such that any new content de puts out gets completed blazingly fast by the community. An endgame would be no different 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, kgabor said:

Eh, can't blame op for that, those are really boring.

And with the current meta amps they get oneshot anyways, hardly endgame.

Lol yea right dude. 

Please make a video of you one shotting Hydro with an amp.

[GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, Fascistsonfire said:

After some time, you will always run out of things to do if you are a long time player or play a high amount of hours per day. I can barely play one hour, so for me the game has endless content.

Endgame in a lot of games is doing the same stuff repeatedly, following a certain gameplay loop. Said endgame is considered good if the loop is cool. What we get in Warframe is a variety of mini gameplay loops that spams all over content and you can pick your poison.

I like it better that way, but I get it when people say they need "an endgame" - what people mean is a challenging, high level content with cool gameplay loop and cool rewards, but even then, that will eventually become part of the "oh I ran out of things to do".

And that's exactly what's happening and what will always happen in a F2P that keeps releasing content patches - eventually the content of the patch, which is akin to a new endgame activity, will wear thin. 

However, Warframe has been going for years and DE keeps releasing new, fun content, for potentially no financial return in some cases(not everyone spends plat, but I know a lot people do too). You can see the amount of passion and dedication they put into this game.

You can read a 1000-page book in a day or in weeks. It's still the same book and the same length. The point being: players will always outpace content. The amount of time it takes to write a 1000-page book is nowhere near the same time it takes to read it, and the same happens here.

Some people finished Steel Path in a day or two. Some people will finish Deimos in a week or two, depending on standing limitations. Maybe it will take less. It will still be a big patch with loads of content. These people will then complain about not having an endgame. 

TL;DR: People's expectations are unrealistic. I suggest, if we want an endgame, that we start considering options and brainstorming ideas of what would be an interesting, reward, non-repetitive endgame activity. 

Correct! The endgame crowd has a special privilege with Warframe: the continuous ability to use their years of invested gear in ever evolving content without getting "ripped off". The reward were more than had yet rewards still continue. At this point, I recognize the stressing of endgame as a whiney but still welcomed fight towards content. 

[Chaemyerelis]

You can't have an endgame with such garbage imbalance.

Until then i guess we have to enjoy the "power fantasy" of spamming left click.

[Chaemyerelis]

8 hours ago, DoubleQuarterPounder said:

You're an mr29 with 8 hydro caps, the end game is there, you're just not doing it lol

how do you see other peoples stats? Looking them up ingame?

[DoubleQuarterPounder]

58 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

how do you see other peoples stats? Looking them up ingame?

/profile (username) in game. In this case, I just did /profile (OP's name) to see what his stats were to see if his complaint was valid

6 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Lol yea right dude. 

Please make a video of you one shotting Hydro with an amp.

It's pretty easy to do tbh, just charge void strike, proc virtuos shadow, shoot through volt shield, bam, hydro shield gone. You can just youtube up eidolon 6x3 if you're not convinced lol, it's been common practice among the eidolon community to know how to one shot eidolon shields for quite some time now.

[Kontrollo]

8 hours ago, Fascistsonfire said:

TL;DR: People's expectations are unrealistic. I suggest, if we want an endgame, that we start considering options and brainstorming ideas of what would be an interesting, reward, non-repetitive endgame activity. 

Psst...

Spoiler

It's called PvP and Clan Wars, but don't tell them I brought it up.

 

Brainstorming is endgame, too.