Limbo and Grendel reworks (partially) in reaction to Heart of Deimos ability swapping

[Azamagon]

As per the title; Limbo and Grendel's abilities would be tough to transfer over to other Warframes (arguably Equinox too, but I'll leave her out of this). While I had these reworks (along many other Warframe reworks) already in mind before the new reveal, I felt I wanted to display them here now quickly, as these reworks would go hand-in-hand nicely with the new ability swapping thing. So, onto the reworks:
 

LIMBO - THE "PEEK-A-BOO" REWORK

An overarcing problem with Limbo is his disruptiveness to teammates. While Cataclysm and Stasis is generally not too much of a problem (as allies can at least interact with enemies and the environment when those two abilities are up and running), his Banish and moreso Rift Surge are hugely annoying. And that is annoying for a Limbo player too, who maybe just wants to use his kit when playing online with other teammates without causing any trouble. This rework not only aims at fixing that, but it also lends himself to having an ability that could work on other Warframes too (as per the title). Let's delve into it!

Passive - Riftwalker

• "Roll" to dash in/out of the Rift (just like now)
• While inside the Rift, Limbo still has the ability to interact with the real world, but when doing so, he is temporarily displaced back into the real world. Or in other words:
  • Moving around in any way (except rolling, as that toggles off the Rift entirely) and casting abilities = Stay in the Rift
  • Shooting, meleeing, hacking panels, using Life support, activating buttons/elevators etc, picking up items = Briefly come back to the real world (for as long as the action takes), then return to the Rift a biref moment later.
• For comparison, think of it like Ivara's Prowl (i.e. how it deactivates temporarily from non-silenced actions). The concept is extremely similar to her ability.
• Limbo's Rift portal creation upon rolling is removed.
• Limbo's 10 energy restore upon killing an enemy in the rift is removed.
• Everything else about the Rift stays the same.

Why? For one, to make his fighting (aside from casting abilities) more exposed (aside from fighting inside the Cataclysm sphere). Not only does this make him more interactive, it also allows for him to have more survivability - not to mention, this change ties into the rest of his ability-changes and how it will no longer troll allies nearly as much as now.

Ability #1 - Banish Rift Blast

• Casts a wave of rift towards the aimed position, violently exploding on enemies, or gently guarding your allies. All these effects takes place on enemies and allies, regardless which plane Limbo is in!
• On enemies; Enemies struck by Rift Blast are dealt 150/300/450/600 Impact damage and are all knocked down, while also being slowed by 65/70/75/80% for 3/4/5/6 seconds. They are NOT put into the Rift though. Furthermore, they are also affected by a debuff called Rift Touch, which lasts for 10/15/20/25 seconds. Enemies affected by Rift Touch are susceptible to Stasis' freezing effect, regardless of which plane they are in, and also pauses the slowdown of Rift Blast until Stasis wears off!
• On allies: Allies are put inside the Rift and gain Limbo's passive effects for 10/15/20/25 seconds (including the toggle on/off on rolling - note that it doesn't remove the BUFF). This means it is no longer disruptive for your allies, as not only do they get out of the Rift when shooting/meleeing/hacking etc, they can still also toggle it on/off whenver they want (The reason for being able to toggle it on/off is because perhaps a player is a Rage-user, and WANTS to get hit etc)
• Modding: Same as now (Strength is damage, Range is wave's length, Duration is effect duration)
• Augment: Rift Haven Rift Mend- Heals 2% of max health every second on allies affected by Rift Blast. This healing increases to 5% per second if they remain in the Rift. Limbo grants himself this regen-buff too whenever he cast Rift Blast (for the same duration as his Rift Blast would last on allies)

Why? Now his ability is useable from any plane and has basicly ZERO of the disruptivness of the old ability. Enemies are no longer put on a seperate plane, they are just CC'd (further so with Stasis), allowing your allies to attack them freely. Allies are put inside the Rift, but since they get the same "peek-a-boo" Rift mechanics as Limbo, it has almost no disruptiveness to it anymore!

Ability #2 - Stasis

• Unchanged (although note the synergy with Rift Blast used on enemies)

Ability #3 - Rift Surge

• While the name is the same, the effect is entirely different (more akin to Rift Surge v1.0, but not quite).
• Grants Limbo a buff for 20/30/40/50 seconds. While active, every second he stays in the Rift, he gains +X% weapon damage (melee and ranged), up to a cap of Y along with regenerating Z shields every 2 seconds (which can Overshield!). While outside the Rift, the weapon bonus (but not the shields) starts dropping down after 1 second, dropping at a similar rate as the gain. Note: This means that fighting inside your Cataclysm means you can fight AND still gain damage over time!
• In addition, when exitting the Rift, he emits an X meter radius stun pulse, with a Y second cooldown.
• Modding is changed like this:
  • Strength: Increases the damage gain (and thus also damage loss) per second, and the cap of the damage bonus
  • Range: Increases the stun pulse's radius
  • Duration: Increases the buff duration
• Augment: Rift Torrent - Every weapon kill during Rift Surge also adds X% to the weapon damage bonus (still adheres to its cap) (Strength boosts this damage bonus percentage)

Why? Well, to encourage Limbo to pop in and out of the Rift with great strength, which goes really well with his "peek-a-boo" Rift mechanic. This lends him to a kind of "Rift Assassin" kind of playstyle (while he can still be the "Rift Guardian" utilizing Stasis and Cataclysm). Also, the current Rift Surge is not only rather clunky to utilize, it's also the worst ability in his kit in regards to being disruptive to his teammates.

Ability #4 - Cataclysm

• The same as now, but with one new mechanic: Every enemy who dies in the Cataclysm adds a small part of their max health+shield to Cataclysm's collapse damage.
• Allies can now interact with consoles and life support capsules located inside the Cataclysm sphere.
• Augment: Cataclysmic Continuum - In addition to the duration extension, the dome no longer shrinks in size over time at all.
•  

WIth this rework, the "cheesiness" of Limbo is not as prelavent, he is not as disruptive to his teammates, and related to the title of this thread, one ability (the new Rift Blast) is something you can put on other Warframes without worrying too much about trolling etc.

 

GRENDEL - THE "FUNCTION ON AN EMPTY BELLY" REWORK

Grendel's kit is not so problematic in regards to team disruptiveness, it's more that his entire kit relies on his first ability Feast, which is arguably also his signature ability. So, how is he even gonna work with the ability swapping thing which comes with Heart of Deimos? Well, this rework is aimed to both fix that problem, and to grant Grendel a bunch of QoL and ability-independancy.

Passive - Glutton

• His current passive (more armor per enemy currently in his belly) remains as is.
• Additional passive: All health and energy restoring effects are 25% stronger on Grendel

Ability #1 - Feast

• In addition to removing armor, it now also removes shields on armorless enemies (such as most Corpus units etc) at the same rate as the armor removal.
• Energydrain no longer ramps up over time, it only scales with number of enemies in his belly, but the base energycost per second is increased to 2 energy/second (up from 1.5)

Ability #2 - Nourish

• As per this thread ->  https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1186958-quiver-and-minelayer-like-abilities-a-new-casting-option-the-quick-access-numerical-menu/?tab=comments#comment-11519968 Grendel can now use the much quicker and unclunkier "QANM"-style casting. TL;DR version of it for Grendel: Press 2 to open up a choice-menu, press 1, 2 or 3 thereafter to either cast Nourish Energy, Nourish Armor or Nourish Strike, respectively, or press 4 or Escape to close the menu. The menu also autocloses after 5 seconds of not choosing anything.
• The healing effect now also heals nearby allies.
• Energycost reduced to 25 (from 50)
• Can be cast without any enemy in his belly, but then the healing effect is halfed and energycost is increased to 50.

Ability #3 - Regurgitate

• In addition to the instant AoE-damage, it now also leaves a pool of slimy acidic bile in the area for X duration, in the same radius. This acid pool deals Y Corrosive damage every second, and has a high chance to proc Corrosive status (like 50% at base, chance scaling with Strength) on every tick as well, and enemies remaining in the pool have their movementspeed slowed (like 20/25/30/35% slowdown - maybe Strength-moddable?).
• Can be cast without any enemy in his belly, but then the initial instant AoE damage is not present (or is at least just deals a lesser set value of damage), and the cost is then 50 energy, instead of being free of cast.

Ability #4 - Pulverize

• While active he can cast Feast for a radial Feast-cast. Base radius of this radial Feast is 2/3/4/5 meters (compared to the regular Feast's conical 10/15/20/25 meters)
• While active he can cast Regurgitate (both the regular version, and the empty-belly version)
• Can be cast without any enemy in his belly, but then drains energy over time.
  • This energy over time is the same energydrain he has when running out of belly-enemies midduration - however, this energydrain no longer ramps up over time (it's just 10 energy per second, at all times).
  • If he swallows an enemy with Feast midduration, Pulverize's energydrain stops.
• Current augment (Catapult) is now baked into the ability by default. Button to trigger this launch is just the regular firing button (i.e. default button is Mouse 1)
• Augment: Catapult Splash Party - [Placeholder replacement idea] During Pulverize, Grendel leaves acid pools in his wake as he moves around, and in a slightly bigger area whenever he collides or groundslams (the acid pools are similar in effect to what was added to Regurgitate; Mild damage, corrosive procs and slowdown).

And with these new additions and changes, two of his abilities (Nourish and Regurgitate) could be reasonable for ability swapping onto other Warframes with the new mechanic in Heart of Deimos. Not to mention, Grendel would arguably be a bit more fun to use, as you're not as overly reliant on Feast anymore and energy won't just be sapped away in an instant.

 

What do you guys think? Are these changes reasonable to you?

 

[Gabbynaru]

Grendel needs a rework to his obtainability. Limbo doesn't need a rework (maybe some anti-trolling tweaks, but not a rework).

Neither of them need a rework in response to Helminth.

[Azamagon]

I had these suggestion in the works BEFORE the Helminth mechanic (as I'm doing a rework-all-frames document), just thought that it was good timing to post these ideas now, considering the Helminth thing.

Also: Grendel's obtainability is fine + Limbo REALLY needs a rework to make him less disruptive to allies. I don't think I could disagreed with you any more on the latter part.

[Lutesque]

 

19 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Limbo's Rift portal creation upon rolling is removed.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 😮 !!!!

19 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Limbo's 10 energy restore upon killing an enemy in the rift is removed.

At what point does a Rework just become a Slaughterhouse Nerf ? 😐

21 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

•  

Ability #1 - Banish Rift Blast

• Casts a wave of rift towards the aimed position, violently exploding on enemies, or gently guarding your allies. All these effects takes place on enemies and allies, regardless which plane Limbo is in!
• On enemies; Enemies struck by Rift Blast are dealt 150/300/450/600 Impact damage and are all knocked down, while also being slowed by 65/70/75/80% for 3/4/5/6 seconds. They are NOT put into the Rift though. Furthermore, they are also affected by a debuff called Rift Touch, which lasts for 10/15/20/25 seconds. Enemies affected by Rift Touch are susceptible to Stasis' freezing effect, regardless of which plane they are in, and also pauses the slowdown of Rift Blast until Stasis wears off!
• On allies: Allies are put inside the Rift and gain Limbo's passive effects for 10/15/20/25 seconds (including the toggle on/off on rolling - note that it doesn't remove the BUFF). This means it is no longer disruptive for your allies, as not only do they get out of the Rift when shooting/meleeing/hacking etc, they can still also toggle it on/off whenver they want (The reason for being able to toggle it on/off is because perhaps a player is a Rage-user, and WANTS to get hit etc)
• Modding: Same as now (Strength is damage, Range is wave's length, Duration is effect duration)
• Augment: Rift Haven - Grants X% health regeneration to allies who remain in the Rift while affected by Rift Blast. Limbo grants himself this regen-buff too whenever he cast Rift Blast (for the same duration as his Rift Blast would last on allies)

Why? Now his ability is useable from any plane and has basicly ZERO of the disruptivness of the old ability. Enemies are no longer put on a seperate plane, they are just CC'd (further so with Stasis), allowing your allies to attack them freely. Allies are put inside the Rift, but since they get the same "peek-a-boo" Rift mechanics as Limbo, it has almost no disruptiveness to it anymore!

Ability #2 - Stasis

• Unchanged (although note the synergy with Rift Blast used on enemies)

Ability #3 - Rift Surge

• While the name is the same, the effect is entirely different (more akin to Rift Surge v1.0, but not quite).
• Grants Limbo a buff for 20/30/40/50 seconds. While active, every second he stays in the Rift, he gains +X% weapon damage (melee and ranged), up to a cap of Y along regenerating Z shields every 2 seconds (which can Overshield!). While outside the Rift, the weapon bonus (but not the shields) starts dropping down after 1 second, dropping at a similar rate as the gain. Note: This means that fighting inside your Cataclysm means you can fight AND gain damage over time!
• In addition, when exitting the Rift, he emits an X meter radius stun pulse, with a Y second cooldown.
• Modding is changed like this:
  • Strength: Increases the damage gain (and thus also damage loss) per second, and the cap of the damage bonus
  • Range: Increases the stun pulse's radius
  • Duration: Increases the buff duration
• Augment: Rift Torrent - Every weapon kill during Rift Surge also adds X% to the weapon damage bonus (still adheres to its cap) (Strength boosts this damage bonus percentage)

Why? Well, to encourage Limbo to pop in and out of the Rift with great strength, which goes really well with his "peek-a-boo" Rift mechanic. This lends him to a kind of "Rift Assassin" kind of playstyle (while he can still be the "Rift Guardian" utilizing Stasis and Cataclysm). Also, the current Rift Surge is not only rather clunky to utilize, it's also the worst ability in his kit in regards to being disruptive to his teammates.

Ability #4 - Cataclysm

• The same as now, but with one new mechanic: Every enemy who dies in the Cataclysm adds a small part of their max health+shield to Cataclysm's collapse damage.
• Allies can now interact with consoles and life support capsules located inside the Cataclysm sphere.
• Augment: Cataclysmic Continuum - In addition to the duration extension, the dome no longer shrinks in size over time at all.
•  

WIth this rework, the "cheesiness" of Limbo is not as prelavent, he is not as disruptive to his teammates, and related to the title of this thread, one ability (the new Rift Blast) is something you can put on other Warframes without worrying too much about trolling etc.

So Limbo is more Team Friendly.... but loses the very thing that makes him Limbo...

24 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Additional passive: All health and energy restoring effects are 25% stronger on Grendel

Thats  it ? Only 25% ? 😐

16 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Grendel needs a rework to his obtainability.

Indeed... 

But then again I would also argue all RNG Warframes need a Obtainability Rework. 

17 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Limbo doesn't need a rework (maybe some anti-trolling tweaks, but not a rework).

Finally... Some one who understands !!! 

 

[Azamagon]

15 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

 

1) NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 😮 !!!!

2) At what point does a Rework just become a Slaughterhouse Nerf ? 😐

3) So Limbo is more Team Friendly.... but loses the very thing that makes him Limbo...

4) Thats  it ? Only 25% ? 😐

1) Considering how much easier the Rift is to utilize for him and his team, gving Banish / Rift Blast for free is unnecessary.

2) That energybonus has never been a big deal anyway. He (and his team) has free energyregen in the Rift, that's enough. There's so much energy overflow in this game anyway.

3) You mean Limbo being able to swap in and out of the Rift at a whim (passive) and able to put both allies in the Rift (Rift Blast+Cataclysm) as well as enemies (Cataclysm). Oh, you just don't do it with 3 abilities  + passive anymore (which just makes for a very redundant-feeling kit), it's now just in 1,5 abilities + passive? So the rework removes ability redundancy and a lot of team disruptiveness. Is that a bad thing to you?

Not to mention, he would actually be able to engage bosses now, with some potency at that.

4) It's a simple passive. It's definitely enough. Especially when he has healing on demand with Nourish, and can further boost the energy-gain with Nourish Energy.

[Lutesque]

Just now, Azamagon said:

1) Considering how much easier the Rift is to utilize for him and his team, gving Banish for free is a little over the top

Its not Free... it costs 25 Energy.

1 minute ago, Azamagon said:

2) That energybonus has never been a big deal anyway.

And yet you removed it anyway...

If what you say is true... then leave it alone....

Or atleast man up and be honest about why want this nerf.

3 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

There's so much energy overflow in this game anyway.

No there isnt... 

What we have is Band Aid Over Flow... 

There's literally 0 Reliable ways of actually getting Energy By Default... this is why Warframes like Gauss, Harrow, Hildryn, Trinity and Limbo are cool... They can function without Band Aids...

7 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

3) You mean Limbo being able to swap in and out of the Rift at a whim (passive) and able to put both allies in the Rift (Rift Blast+Cataclysm) as well as enemies (Cataclysm). Oh, you just don't do it with 3 abilities  + passive anymore (which just makes for a very redundant-feeling kit), it's now just in 1,5 abilities + passive? So the rework removes ability redundancy and a lot of team disruptiveness. Is that a bad thing to you?

Its also alot less Synergystic and honestly makes limbo just feel like every other Warframe since now he can deal damage and heal and buff... Boring !!!

Thats why I was never a big fan of Booben's Rework... specifically Photon Strike and Fletchet Orbs (and Overdriver).... I want to CC... Stop giving me damage, I already have weapons for that !!!

10 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

4) It's a simple passive. It's definitely enough. Especially when he has healing on demand with Nourish, and can further boost the energy-gain with Nourish Energy.

Its Never Enough... But whatever... I dont like DE's Grendel and your Grendel doesnt make me want to play him either way.... so I guess its fine...

 

[Azamagon]

21 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

1) Its not Free... it costs 25 Energy.

2) And yet you removed it anyway... If what you say is true... then leave it alone.... Or atleast man up and be honest about why want this nerf.

3) No there isnt... What we have is Band Aid Over Flow... There's literally 0 Reliable ways of actually getting Energy By Default... this is why Warframes like Gauss, Harrow, Hildryn, Trinity and Limbo are cool... They can function without Band Aids...

4) Its also alot less Synergystic and honestly makes limbo just feel like every other Warframe since now he can deal damage and heal and buff... Boring !!!

5) Thats why I was never a big fan of Booben's Rework... specifically Photon Strike and Fletchet Orbs (and Overdriver).... I want to CC... Stop giving me damage, I already have weapons for that !!!

6) Its Never Enough... But whatever... I dont like DE's Grendel and your Grendel doesnt make me want to play him either way.... so I guess its fine...

 

1) Woosh? The Rift Portal on dash is free, which is thus essentially a Banish/Rift Blast for free. Get it?

2) Because Rift Surge + Cataclysm means absolute mayhem. And with that, lots and lots of energy from the 10-energy-on-kill-in-Rift. Which makes him a bit too easy to use against hordes of enemies. Also, it's part of an energy revamp, where energy is a bit more scarce overall, but all abilities are also more useful (no more nigh-useless Fireball or Ripline)

3) By default, yes. But with all the tools at our disposal (mods like Streamline+Fleeting Expertise, Rage+Hunter Adrenaline, Energy Siphon, Energy restore pads, Zenurik's Energizing Dash etc), it gets over the top in the end. With my energy revamp I have in mind (which I didn't wanna put in here as well), you have better DEFAULT tools, but the added tools you attain to help with your energy are less impactful than they are now - for a more balanceable experience. And removing that 10-energy-on-kill-in-Rift is part of that change.

4) First; Limbo could already deal damage and heal and buff.

Deal damage: Rift Torrent augments.

Heal: Rift Haven exists.

Buff: His whole kit puts allies in the Rift for energy regen.

So it's nothing new.

Also, there's technically not LESS synergy, but different synergy.

Current style (if you are using his whole kit), is about putting enemies in the Rift with Banish, Rift Surge and Cataclysm, while CCing them with Stasis. 3 abilities doing the same thing in different ways. I'd argue that THAT is boring.

The reworked style is, for example: Putting enemies in the Rift with Cataclysm and CC them with Stasis (like now). Activate Rift Surge and go to town on the enemies inside. Could also knock 'em down with Rift Blast for some melee ground finishers.

Or, for a more mobile experience: Buff yourself with Rift Surge, weave in and out of combat with his passive, while CCing your enemies with Stasis+Rift Blast. Cast Cataclysm if the crowd gets really big. Not to mention, you'd be able to do this to bosses as well - as you might know, fighting strong bosses with Limbo right now is rather clunky/frustrating, unless you're just there to "Rift-tank" with his passive.

5) Not gonna argue about Booben here (I have some general issue with his kit), but you want more CC? You'd still have a lot of CC with my suggested Limbo rework. Cataclysm+Stasis would still be a thing. In fact, Rift Blast+Stasis would be even *better* CC than his current Banish+Stasis (as Rift Blast affects enemies regardless which side of the Rift you or the enemies are!)

6) You sound rather greedy my man. You need to chill and stop sounding so entitled.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, Azamagon said:

1) Woosh? The Rift Portal on dash is free, which is thus essentially a Banish/Rift Blast for free. Get it?

But Its not a Banish... ergo... not a Free Banish... 

2 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

2) Because Rift Surge + Cataclysm means absolute mayhem. And with that, lots and lots of energy from the 10-energy-on-kill-in-Rift. Which makes him a bit too easy to use against hordes of enemies.

Oh no !!! A Warframe thats actually designed around the Horde Shooter Concept... Cant Have That !!

NERF !!!

4 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Also, it's part of an energy revamp, where energy is a bit more scarce overall, but all abilities are also more useful (no more nigh-useless Fireball or Ripline)

What Energy Revamp ?

5 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

 

3) By default, yes. But with all the tools at our disposal (mods like Streamline+Fleeting Expertise, Rage+Hunter Adrenaline, Energy Siphon, Energy restore pads, Zenurik's Energizing Dash etc), it gets over the top in the end.

Do you not understand what "Band Aid" means...?

Mod Slots, Focus, Companions, etc... always preventing you from using something you actually Want to use... 

As long as thats the case Energy will never be overpowered regardless of How Hard you Spam...

8 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

With my energy revamp I have in mind (which I didn't wanna put in here as well), you have better DEFAULT tools, but the added tools you attain to help with your energy are less impactful than they are now - for a more balanceable experience. And removing that 10-energy-on-kill-in-Rift is part of that change.

Looking at your Limbo Nerfs... im not sold by this supposed "Energy Revamp" of yours. Im telling you right now If i need a single mod of any kind just to get my Warfame to function than its already just as pointless as what we have now.

10 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

4) First; Limbo could already deal damage and heal and buff.

With Augments... Which require Slots... 

Damage was never a Base Functionality of Limbo like it is now in your Rework.

12 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Also, there's technically not LESS synergy, but different synergy.

Yes... Damage Synergy... which many other Warframes already have.... which can Go to hell as far as Im concerned. None of them have Limbo's Uniqueness.

14 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Current style (if you are using his whole kit), is about putting enemies in the Rift with Banish, Rift Surge and Cataclysm, while CCing them with Stasis. 3 abilities doing the same thing in different ways. I'd argue that THAT is boring.

Then Make it fun... Dont make it like everything else... 

15 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

The reworked style is, for example: Putting enemies in the Rift with Cataclysm and CC them with Stasis (like now). Activate Rift Surge and go to town on the enemies inside. Could also knock 'em down with Rift Blast for some melee ground finishers.

So basically its like a DPS Frame but with a lot more steps to actually kill enemies.... 

This is what you gutted Limbo's Characteristics for ? 😐

17 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

5) Not gonna argue about Booben here (I have some general issue with his kit), but you want more CC? You'd still have a lot of CC with my suggested Limbo rework.

But Less Synergy with That CC... since you converted the other Abilities to damage Abilities. 

19 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Cataclysm+Stasis would still be a thing.

But Cataclysm + Stasis + Rift Surge + Banish would not be a thing anymore... 

21 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

. In fact, Rift Blast+Stasis would be even *better* CC than his current Banish+Stasis (as Rift Blast affects enemies regardless which side of the Rift you or the enemies are!)

No its not... Nothing Beats Stasis + Banish.... The blast means nothing... The enenies cant move.... Job is done.... blast them if you want to but you didnt improve on stasis... all you did was add junk on top of it..... seriously when in the history of Warframe has Limbo ever cared about Damaging Enemies ? 

23 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

 

6) You sound rather greedy my man. You need to chill and stop sounding so entitled.

Dont know how Im being greedy or entitled.... If you want to rework Warframes... go ahead. If you want to nerf them or butcher their Originality then Im going to have something to say about that.... does that make entitled... ? GOOD !!! 

 

[Azamagon]

19 hours ago, Lutesque said:

1) But Its not a Banish... ergo... not a Free Banish... 

2) Oh no !!! A Warframe thats actually designed around the Horde Shooter Concept... Cant Have That !! NERF !!!

3) What Energy Revamp ?

4) Do you not understand what "Band Aid" means...?

5) Mod Slots, Focus, Companions, etc... always preventing you from using something you actually Want to use...

6) As long as thats the case Energy will never be overpowered regardless of How Hard you Spam...

7) Looking at your Limbo Nerfs... im not sold by this supposed "Energy Revamp" of yours. Im telling you right now If i need a single mod of any kind just to get my Warfame to function than its already just as pointless as what we have now.

8 -)With Augments... Which require Slots... Damage was never a Base Functionality of Limbo like it is now in your Rework.

9) Yes... Damage Synergy... which many other Warframes already have.... which can Go to hell as far as Im concerned. None of them have Limbo's Uniqueness.

10) Then Make it fun... Dont make it like everything else... 

11) So basically its like a DPS Frame but with a lot more steps to actually kill enemies.... This is what you gutted Limbo's Characteristics for ? 😐

12) But Less Synergy with That CC... since you converted the other Abilities to damage Abilities. 

13) But Cataclysm + Stasis + Rift Surge + Banish would not be a thing anymore... 

14) No its not... Nothing Beats Stasis + Banish.... The blast means nothing... The enenies cant move.... Job is done.... blast them if you want to but you didnt improve on stasis... all you did was add junk on top of it..... seriously when in the history of Warframe has Limbo ever cared about Damaging Enemies ? 

15) Dont know how Im being greedy or entitled.... If you want to rework Warframes... go ahead. If you want to nerf them or butcher their Originality then Im going to have something to say about that.... does that make entitled... ? GOOD !!!

 

1) It's close enough. And close enough to free Banish = reason to scrap it. Come on, you're getting the point, right?

2) Let me guess, you're on that ridiculous bandwagon train of though "ONLY BUFF, NEVER NERF", yes? Because that mindset is how you ruin videogames.

3) My Energy revamp, which no one has seen - I'm mentioning it, hoping you are smart enough to understand that there's a "bigger picture" behinid my changes. But I guess I'm expecting too much of you...

4) Yes, it's a synonym for plaster... /s
No but really, not all of those things listed there are videogame "bandaids". To me "bandaids" are more along the lines of QoL-additions or "fixes" in the form of mods and such, instead of just being straight up added to an ability or whatnot. Having the ability to cast a lot of abilities via Streamline and Fleeting Expertise are not bandaids in that sense - they are VERY (over)powerful tools you may choose to use. They aren't all bandaids, but many of them are problematic "false choices", due to how powerful they are (just like mods such as Serration on a Rifle etc).

Now, to make you understand a bit what the overall idea more or less is behind the energymechanics I'd like to suggest (this is very WIP, mind you), here's a list of changes I'd do to energy and abiltiies:

• All energycosts are more or less cut in half, by default (so, an "ultimate" goes from 100 energy to about 50 energy)
• All Warframes have some innate energyregen. Nothing too crazy, and neither something over the top either (think ~ 1 energy per second or so)
• Mods like Streamline and Fleeting Expertise no longer alter energycosts, but they rather grant small/moderate amounts of personal energyregen.
• Energypads (or rather, ALL pads, have a slight cooldown between useage
• All Focus Schools give some kind of way to help with energyregen (Zenurik staying basicly the same, Unairu has a mild version of Rage etc)
• All Abilities, at least the very weak ones, become way more potent - more worthwhile to use your now slightly more scarce energy resources on.

Something along those lines. Buffs along with nerfs, for a having less extreme start-vs-end points (i.e. newbies have an easier time from the getgo, while the longtimer won't become so atrociously overpowered as they are now)

5) And what is that "something" you want instead? Just all out on damage? There HAS to be choices for a lot of what we do. A mod like Intensify is not a "bandaid" for our powers, it's a choice in that we want to increase the power of our abilities. Refer back to my #4 choice - there's a difference between bandaid and false choice.

6) No, powerspam is very much a problem. On one end, it makes some content trivial (think Mesa Peacemaker's power). On the other end, having such huge availability of energy is keeping many bad abilities in their bad shape - because they are so spammable anyway. Balancing how we handle Energy is absolutely crucial for all other ability-balancing.

7) That's been the very core issue due to the powercreep running amok. It's kind of the point needing an overarcing rework to energy...

8-) And you were speaking of bandaids? Kidding aside, this is more of a design philosophy I have a big issue with on a lot of Warframes: And that's ability redundancy. Vauban used to have SIX (Even 7 if you count Tesla) CC-abilities, which is bound to make him "spam the best one and ignore the others". Limbo currently has 3 abilities and 1 passive which all amount to "put things in the Rift". Ember has 3 abilities aimed at dealing damage. And so on. THIS STUPID ABILITY REDUNDANCY NEEDS TO STOP!

And, that's why my Limbo rework looks the way it does. I'd even argue that I could make it even less redundant, but then he'd be far too different from what he is.

Also my rework actually is more or less a hybrid of Limbo 1.0 (which DID have a self-damagebooster by default - AND he had some seriously overpowered nuking power with Cataclysm! So in the regard of damage, you're very wrong) and current Limbo for a reasonable compromise of his current and his past forms. So, you can scream all you want about "wah, don't destroy my pwecious toll-Limbo", because then I can be immature and also scream "waaah, but I liked the OLD duelling Limbo". But I suggested something in between, so both camps can remain happy enough.

9) Limbo would still be plenty unique after my rework.

10) Fun is subjective. And I find the "Rift Assassin" style to be an awesomely enticing playstyle (you know, something more similar to how he was at the start). To you, CC seems to be fun. And there's still massive CC left in him (just far less trolly now).

11) Exaggerate much? A powerful DPSer like Chroma has to take damage before doling it out himself. Limbo would have to power up in the Rift for a bit. High effort woopdidoo? I was talking about synergies, of course they might look like "a lot of work". Just like his current current CC-methods (if you use all of his powers that is) is "a lot of work".

12) Again: 3 abitliies to (with some unnecessary complexity) keep enemies in the Rift. Like I said, ability redundancy.

13) Yeah, thank GOD for that trolly and chaotic mess!

14) Hold up, hold up ,hold up...

If you're saying that Rift Blast + Stasis is outright WORSE than Banish + Stasis... I dunno man, that clearly tells you haven't really understood my suggestions.

Lemme ELI5 it for you:

Current Banish + Stasis

• Banish only works to be cast on enemies of on the same side of the Rift.
  • So if you're in the real world, you can cast it on real world enemies to put them in the Rift for 25 seconds (let's just stick to max rank and unmodded)
  • If you're in the Rift, you can cast it on enemies in the Rift to put them back in the real world
• Stasis only works with the former cast (as putting them back in the real world puts them out of Stasis too)
• Allies have limitted action from themselves to interact with how a Limbo casts his spells, because if they are in the Rift, they can either
  • deal damage to them with damaging abilities (something not all Warframes possess, like Loki for example)
  • hope that Limbo puts the allies in the Rift too (via Banish or Cataclysm) so they can attack them with their weapons

My suggested Rift Blast + Stasis

• Limbo can cast Rift Blast on enemies regardless if he is in the Rift or the real world, or if the enemies are in the Rift (via Cataclysm) or in the real world.
• Stasis works with Rift Blast to "freeze" enemies struck by the Rift Blast, which will keep them in Stasis (but they are still in the REAL WORLD) for up to 25 seconds. After the Stasis wears off, the slowdown effect from Rift Blast takes place for 6 seconds, giving you some time to react to them coming out of Stasis.
• Allies can fully interact with these "frozen" enemies, since they are still in the real world. They can shoot them, melee them, or cast abiltiies on them. No team disruption.

HOW IS THAT WORSE??

Also, as for this part of your response: "seriously when in the history of Warframe has Limbo ever cared about Damaging Enemies"

Both in his original conception (Rift Surge was a personal damagebuff), and his first rework (Cataclysm nuked HARD) and partially in his current form (Cataclysm's explosion damage still scales with enemy health, just not absurdly so + his Rift Torrent augment).

The question in itself is also kinda of nonsensical. If you wanna kill when using Limbo, you do so. If you wanna CC when using Limbo, you do so. Everyone can damage enemies if they want to. Limbo very much so, if the player chooses to (Rift Torrent gives you that option in particular).

15) You don't know how you're sounding greedy/entitled? Well what about these words:

Quote

Its Never Enough.

That's sounds very greedy and very entitled.

Also, I find it quite ironic that you say I butcher the originality of Limbo, when I'm ACTUALLY taking inspiration from his true origin, his 1.0 form. Even so, even if my rework might not be considered the most original, remember this: Just because something is original, doesn't mean it's good (or, to clarify myself in this case; doesn't mean it's well designed - just pointing that out so you don't go and misunderstand me thinking I'm saying he's a weak Warframe)

[Lutesque]

6 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

1) It's close enough. And close enough to free Banish = reason to scrap it. Come on, you're getting the point, right?

I dont think you understand How Banish works 

If these two things were the same then Actual Banish would have no reason to cost energy....

Banish is Banish

And Rift Walk is Rift Walk....

9 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

2) Let me guess, you're on that ridiculous bandwagon train of though "ONLY BUFF, NEVER NERF", yes? Because that mindset is how you ruin videogames.

I dont know of any of Video Games ruined by buffs.... but I know quite a few Ruined by Nerfs...

10 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

3) My Energy revamp, which no one has seen - I'm mentioning it, hoping you are smart enough to understand that there's a "bigger picture" behinid my changes. But I guess I'm expecting too much of you...

Duh !!! I cant read your mind. 

11 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

4) Yes, it's a synonym for plaster... /s
No but really, not all of those things listed there are videogame "bandaids". To me "bandaids" are more along the lines of QoL-additions or "fixes" in the form of mods and such, instead of just being straight up added to an ability or whatnot. Having the ability to cast a lot of abilities via Streamline and Fleeting Expertise are not bandaids in that sense - they are VERY (over)powerful tools you may choose to use. They aren't all bandaids, but many of them are problematic "false choices", due to how powerful they are (just like mods such as Serration on a Rifle etc).

As long as they conpete for Mod Slots simply for the Warframe to function... its a Band Aid... through and Through...

13 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

All Warframes have some innate energyregen. Nothing too crazy, and neither something over the top either (think ~ 1 energy per second or so)

😐

thats it ? 

built in Energy Siphon ? 

i think we're done here.

 

[Azamagon]

37 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

1) I dont think you understand How Banish works. If these two things were the same then Actual Banish would have no reason to cost energy....

Banish is Banish

And Rift Walk is Rift Walk....

2) I dont know of any of Video Games ruined by buffs.... but I know quite a few Ruined by Nerfs...

3) Duh !!! I cant read your mind. 

4) As long as they conpete for Mod Slots simply for the Warframe to function... its a Band Aid... through and Through...

5)

😐

thats it ? 

built in Energy Siphon ? 

i think we're done here.

 

1) It still puts allies into the Rift, free of cost. Banish / Rift Blast puts allies into the rift, but not free of cost. What's so hard to grasp here?

2) You've never heard of the problems of powercreep? And how it's literally a huge problem in Warframe itself??

3) I mentioned it to you a few times over this thread that I had a bigger energy rework in mind - but I didn't wanna go in to the details because they are heavily work-in-progress. It was nothing about reading my mind, more that I had other broader ideas in mind too.

4) ... I'm not sure what to really reply to this nonsense... What DO you want to put in the Warframe slots? Give me examples so I see what mod choices you considered to be ACTUAL choices and not "bandaids" (which you are very much seemingly mislabelling).

5) Now that's a serious case of selective reading right there.

What about halfed abiliy costs? What about Focus schools all having energy-regaining methods? What about all abilities becoming overall a bit stronger, since energy is a bit more scarce? Or that I said that it's a WORK IN PROGRESS and the fact that the innate energyregen number can be tweaked according to what would fit better (since it's very hard to know how things would work out in practice)?

In fact, I forgot a few things, one very important one (my oopsie) such as some way to regain energy via killing which isn't reliant on just Energy Orbs. That part, in particular, (again, very much my oopsie) is why I've removed the energy-gain-on-killing-enemies-in the Rift for Limbo - not to mention that this passive would be very oddly specific to just function with Cataclysm in my rework.

[Loza03]

The Limbo changes don't seem to address one of his biggest issues overall.

Stasis+cataclysm isn't just the strongest, least disruptive playstyle, it's also among the most linear and boring of his kit. The suggestions remove some of Limbo's cheesiness, which is nice, but removing banish and streamlining the process of attacking cross rift isn't worth it. It just lets Limbo get kills somewhat for free, since there's seemingly no downside to attacking cross-rift under this - as is, with Banish, you need to properly plan out the situation, and risk yourself at least on the initial banishing.

 

Personally speaking, I'd approach the Banish as unfriendly problem a different way - making it visibly clearer when enemies are riftbound, and making it more convenient for allies to affect the rift, rather than more convenient for Limbo to affect outside it. My logic being that, by playing a Warframe, you sign up for all their foibles and requirements for that playstyle, but your teammates didn't. To this end, I'd change the rift effect (partial transparancy being my preferred effect) and give teammates the same 'roll into Rift' ability Limbo has when in the presence of Rifted enemies.

Stasis meanwhile, is simply an ability that allows Limbo to ignore all risk and all gameplay with the push of a button. It's only affected by two stats (Efficiency and duration) and it's a cheap ability, even by crowd control standards. Given how easy it is to get enemies into the rift, especially in defensive situations, the rift is not a suitable downside. I would personally change it to be a bubble in its own right, and give a number of other benefits to fighting in the rift.

[Azamagon]

9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The Limbo changes don't seem to address one of his biggest issues overall.

Stasis+cataclysm isn't just the strongest, least disruptive playstyle, it's also among the most linear and boring of his kit. The suggestions remove some of Limbo's cheesiness, which is nice, but removing banish and streamlining the process of attacking cross rift isn't worth it. It just lets Limbo get kills somewhat for free, since there's seemingly no downside to attacking cross-rift under this - as is, with Banish, you need to properly plan out the situation, and risk yourself at least on the initial banishing.

 

Personally speaking, I'd approach the Banish as unfriendly problem a different way - making it visibly clearer when enemies are riftbound, and making it more convenient for allies to affect the rift, rather than more convenient for Limbo to affect outside it. My logic being that, by playing a Warframe, you sign up for all their foibles and requirements for that playstyle, but your teammates didn't. To this end, I'd change the rift effect (partial transparancy being my preferred effect) and give teammates the same 'roll into Rift' ability Limbo has when in the presence of Rifted enemies.

Stasis meanwhile, is simply an ability that allows Limbo to ignore all risk and all gameplay with the push of a button. It's only affected by two stats (Efficiency and duration) and it's a cheap ability, even by crowd control standards. Given how easy it is to get enemies into the rift, especially in defensive situations, the rift is not a suitable downside. I would personally change it to be a bubble in its own right, and give a number of other benefits to fighting in the rift.

Hmm, I have a mild suspiscion you didn't completely understand the changes to Banish/his passive:

When influenced by Banish (or when Limbo is inside the Rift with his passive) whenever you attack with weapons, you will be brought back to the real world. That means you are exposed whenever you or an ally attack with non-abilities. In a way, it's similar to using Banish and the passive right now, just quicker and far less clunky. And it's that quick and unclunky changeup which I find vital to make him feel more "modernized", so he can keep up with the fast pace of the game without juggling himself and his enemies in such a tedious manner as he has to do it currently. Make him more... smooth, I guess is the main changeup here.
Going at it from the other way (as per your suggestion) - while it could certainly work - still puts the burden on the teammates in that they have to know about the whole roll-into-Rift thing. It's still gonna feel very intrusive for them.

I do see your point with Cata+Stasis though, but I didn't want to change him up TOO much. Stasis getting some changes to be a bit less cheesy though (in a way that doesn't make it useless either) could go a long way into balancing him, yes.

[Steel_Rook]

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Personally speaking, I'd approach the Banish as unfriendly problem a different way - making it visibly clearer when enemies are riftbound, and making it more convenient for allies to affect the rift, rather than more convenient for Limbo to affect outside it. My logic being that, by playing a Warframe, you sign up for all their foibles and requirements for that playstyle, but your teammates didn't. To this end, I'd change the rift effect (partial transparancy being my preferred effect) and give teammates the same 'roll into Rift' ability Limbo has when in the presence of Rifted enemies.

Yeah. If nothing else, there needs to be a MUUUCH better indication of what's in the Rift an what isn't. Yes, there is an effect so faint I need glasses and a pause feature to actually spot it on enemies, but that's by FAR not enough. Many a time I've fired on enemies for quite a while not realising they were banished and wondering why they weren't dying. There also needs to be a better indication of when I myself am in the Rift. Again, there's a slight cel shaded look to everything when that happens, but it's so slight as to be imperceptible in a wide range of lighting conditions. Something more obvious is needed to tell me that I accidentally walked through a Limbo portal and that's why I can't hit buttons any more.

As for the rest of his rework, I don't really have much of an opinion on the matter. I'm not sure what core gameplay loop would be the most fun for him. When I first started playing Limbo, I had a lot of fun staying in the Rift an banishing enemies in with me to shoot them one at a time without the others being able to help. Sort of non-stealth version of that one Rambo stalking scene. However, that's a pretty impractical way of playing him and I eventually transitioned to "Cataclysm + Stasis + what other abilities?"

 

As to Grendel... Honest, I'd just get rid of the energy cost for keeping enemies in his belly. In fact, I'd get rid of his energy cost entirely, and go the Hyldrin approach. Have all of his abilities cost enemies in his gut. Maybe have him upchuck if you accidentally eat more than 10 people, as a sort of metaphor for overeating. My reasoning here is that Grendel is fun when I can eat enemies, spit them out and roll around. However, he's so energy-bound that that ends up being my limitation more often than not. I'm always a fan of "removing energy" and replacing it with some other resource, and Grendel has one built into his design.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

When influenced by Banish (or when Limbo is inside the Rift with his passive) whenever you attack with weapons, you will be brought back to the real world. That means you are exposed whenever you or an ally attack with non-abilities. In a way, it's similar to using Banish and the passive right now, just quicker and far less clunky. And it's that quick and unclunky changeup which I find vital to make him feel more "modernized", so he can keep up with the fast pace of the game without juggling himself and his enemies in such a tedious manner as he has to do it currently. Make him more... smooth, I guess is the main changeup here.
Going at it from the other way (as per your suggestion) - while it could certainly work - still puts the burden on the teammates in that they have to know about the whole roll-into-Rift thing. It's still gonna feel very intrusive for them.

I understand this, but my logic is that his need to juggle is his primary limiting factor.

With these changes, there's basically no risk involved in attacking an enemy as Limbo. Your defence is automatic, and costs nothing of you to maintain. As-is, there's an opportunity cost. You can stay safe, in exchange for being unable to attack. If you want to attack, you must lower your guard. Whilst on paper this is maintained with this setup, it's greatly reduced, since it's entirely automatic. The other option is that the window is quite long, at which point you're cheated out of meaningful action - as-is, you can see an attack coming and immediately respond to defend yourself, but if it's based on a timer then you've effectively been screwed through no fault of your own.

I empathise that it's intrusive to other players, but the nature of Co-operative games means that players will be able to interact with each other, and thus mess with each other. It'll be somewhat intrusive one way or the other, forcing players to learn properly. As long as it's reasonable to learn a mechanic, and the adjustment is reasonable (i.e. it's not borderline impossible to tell if an enemy is on a different plane to you), then the mechanic is fair game.

[--Q--EXHALER_Wolf]

Grendel might need a rework as his current state doesn't feel good to play with, but Limboi is completely fine as he is. He's a solo focused frame and pressing 2+4 gets the job done when you're playing in a squad. Pressing all 4 buttons is for when you wanna chill and have some fun alone, at which Limbo is fantastic.