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I'm kind of worried about the Chrysalis system.


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DE kind of has a history of going "OOOOH, SHINY" and then not thinking it all the way through before just running with it.  I've been going through each frame and trying to guess what ability we'll get from that frame for fun, and I've got a funny feeling about this.

I have a feeling 2 things are going to happen because of this system:
 

1. People will start calling for individual ability reworks much more frequently.  They showed off Shock and Pull being the skills you get from Volt and Mag.  Neither of those skills are good.  There might be a few really niche cases where you would want pull, but I can't see shock working with any frame.  You can look at the abilities of all the frames in game and for most of them make an educated guess as to what skills we're going to get.  Frost will probably be Freeze.  Banshee will probably be Sonic Boom.  Neither of these are very good either and most likely not worth replacing another skill with.  This system is going to highlight that, hard.  It won't help that this system was talked about as being for endgame players with stockpiles of resources and the ability to just farm up, craft and throw away frames at will.  Shock is not going to help an endgame player do anything but meme around in the starchart.  Sonic Boom is pretty weak CC that isn't really worth going through the trouble of replacing, especially when you can get the same effect with your Operator dash without having to replace anything.

2.  Massive power creep, potentially resulting in nerfs, maybe even to frames that technically could use buffs.  This is all speculation, obviously, so maybe we don't get Sonic Boom from Banshee.  Maybe we get Silence, or even Sonar.  On the right/wrong frames those abilities could be absolutely broken.  In the case of Sonar (which I know won't happen) it would be broken on ANY frame.  But what about Nyx?  Most people think Nyx needs a rework/buff.  But Psychic Bolts is one of the most slept on abilities in the game (and is my guess as to what ability we'll get from her.), and on several other frames would be absolutely broken as it's a recastable, duration based, 100% armor and shield strip for 6 enemies at a time at just 125% power strength.  The fact that it would be really strong on other frames would either be power creep or result in Nyx getting nerfed, or in the Crysalis system getting nerfed into being pointless as they watch what we do and realize that certain frames would become absolutely OP by being able to replace one ability with just a handful of other likely candidates.  

Think about some of the frames that don't really have bad abilities.  Hildryn.  It doesn't matter what ability we get from her, whichever one it is will make many other frames insane.  Trinity.  Same thing.  Well of Life might be pointless on Trinity because Blessing exists, but Well of life to replace one of the more useless skills on several different frames, like Mesa's Ballistic Battery?  Now Mesa can heal the squad.  Or if it's Link, now there's an extra defensive ability for a frame like Excal, who has two completely useless-past-the-star-chart abilities in Slash Dash and Radial Javelin, but could really use a defensive ability.  Link on a melee frame would be extremely strong.  Look at Wisp's kit.  It won't be her "ultimate" even though her 4 is actually her weakest ability.  Any of the other 3 in the right hands on several other frames would be extremely strong.  There's a really long list of abilities that will probably end up being the ability we get that are going to massively shake up frame choice and builds, which is fun, but will definitely result in power creep.  

Nearly every single frame is either going to be putting up an ability that will be completely useless (because it's useless no matter what, or useless outside its kit's synergy) or completely OP.

It's going to be really interesting to see which abilities we get, what sort of restrictions there will be on their use (if any) and how they handle certain frames like Limbo, Grendel and Gauss, whose whole kit relies on synergy and passives.

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Now Mesa can heal the squad.

I mean... She can... But she wont... 

7 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

It doesn't matter what ability we get from her, whichever one it is will make many other frames insane.

Most will be rubbish....Some will be really good... Absolutely none of them will be Insane unless they change their mind about 4th Abilities. 

 

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ya i can def see this being an issue on a couple frames.... look at wukon for instance. any of his abilities would be amazingly OP if abused. while on the one hand it seems like some frames DE is taking a heavy hand on that by picking useless abilities wherever they can... like with volt or frost where they took the most basic weak damage abilities when they could have gone with usefull utility abilities like snowglobe... even zeph will be hit with that as obviously we wont get turbulance (op as heck on a tank frame) and we wont get tailwind cause of its utility as a good speed/travel ability especially for slow heavy frames, so looks like we are getting airburst, her most basic weak damage ability

Edited by SweetAnubis
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Absolutely none of them will be Insane unless they change their mind about 4th Abilities.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion if you really stop and think about some of the frames we'll be pulling abilities from, vs how many frames (even really good frames) have one bad ability.  Wisp's 4 isn't very useful past sortie 3 levels, and compared to weapons isn't ever really the obvious choice like Peacemaker is.  That means you could safely replace Wisp's 4 with any number of things that we're likely to get from other frames.  We'll probably get either Pillage or Haven from Hildryn.  Either of those would be broken on Wisp.  

For Wisp herself, we know we're not getting the ultimate.  It probably won't be her Reservoirs, unless they are smoking that good S#&$ over at DE.  It will be her 2 or 3.  Her 3 is insane damage output and would increase the DPS of so many frames.  Her 2 is not just an excellent distraction skill for survivability at high levels, it's a mobility skill as well.

I think we'll end up with Ensnare from Khora, because it would be absolutely ridiculous for them to give us Whipclaw for any frame, and Venari and Strangledome both seem like signature abilities that we're not likely to get.  Ensnare is excellent CC and for any frame that lacks CC but has one bad ability, that frame just got that much stronger.  

Some frames are a toss up.  I think Revenant will either give us Mesmer Skin or Reave.  If it's Reave, it will be meh since you won't have thralls.  If we get Mesmer Skin, that would flat out break the game.  Nearly any frame would be capable of running through Steel Path without taking any damage.  Imagine doing something stupid like stacking Mesmer Skin on Rhino with Iron Skin or Scarab armor on Inaros.  The enemy just flat out couldn't hurt you.  They get through one defense and then they have to get through another while you recast the first.  It would be totally broken, depending on which skill we get.

EDIT:  The only way this won't be broken is if we don't get to pick which ability we're replacing with the Chrysalis ability.  Like if you HAVE to replace a 1 ability with a 1 ability.  And there are still probably cases where it will be broken.

  

12 minutes ago, SweetAnubis said:

like with volt or frost where they took the most basic weak damage abilities when they could have gone with usefull utility abilities like snowglobe

Unless there's a released list that I don't know about of which powers we're getting, the only confirmed powers are Shock and Pull and I'd say those might even be subject to change, though I doubt it.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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27 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

like Mesa's Ballistic Battery?  Now Mesa can heal the squad.

Pssh, Protea’s one to replace Mesa’s one. And done. Protea getting straight thrown into the blender. 

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While you all are worried about X Warframe abilities being good on others.... I want to see how good the new exclusive helminth abilities will be.

And going by that all abilities shown are either direct damage or utility buffs. Pretty sure Mesmer Skin is regarded as a signature skill along side Iron Skin.


Have some faith and you know that if something is too broken there will be nerfs. So don't invest in the meta right away.

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For better or worse, balance will be screwed regardless. And we don't even know all the abilities Helminth will have, because Rebecca was only at rank 2.

 

While I love customization (and I can't lie that I'm drooling over some of the potential synergies like everyone else), that's not my main concern. Mainly I'm worried frames will lose their identity, and that this will be an excuse to not buff/fix weaker frames. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

So don't invest in the meta right away.

The nice thing about this is that I don't think there's a way for them to screw us on investing in the meta, so long as you were planning to "eat" all the frames for completion any way.  Which I am.  If they decide they don't want to let an ability be the one you get and switch it, I feel like they would just swap the one already in your arsenal for whatever new ability that frame gives instead.  And again, for some frames, like Trinity, it won't matter what ability they pick, it will be useful and strong.

 

4 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Wait and see

I'm just starting discussion on it, because it's interesting to me, not trying to get them to change anything before it even comes out.

  

1 minute ago, KitMeHarder said:

this will be an excuse to not buff/fix weaker frames. 

That thought crossed my mind too.  "We don't need to rework Inaros, just rework him yourself!"

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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21 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

 Absolutely none of them will be Insane unless they change their mind about 4th Abilities. 

Or Signature abilities...

I can't even imagine how much more fun I'd have on Hydroid with an Ironskin I could potentially buff with Tidal Surge. 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm just starting discussion on it, because it's interesting to me, not trying to get them to change anything before it even comes out.

Oh you can continue to discuss it, my take on the situation is just "wait and see" it might be a too broken, too weak or it might be nice

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1 minute ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The nice thing about this is that I don't think there's a way for them to screw us on investing in the meta, so long as you were planning to "eat" all the frames for completion any way.  Which I am.  If they decide they don't want to let an ability be the one you get and switch it, I feel like they would just swap the one already in your arsenal for whatever new ability that frame gives instead.  And again, for some frames, like Trinity, it won't matter what ability they pick, it will be useful and strong.

Or maybe is the other way around and they'll rework frames around that system. Like Inaros 1st ability is obviously the choice here, but imagine how powerful would be an instant finisher on Loki? They either rework Inaros or let it be OP.

We'll see how it turns out.

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Just now, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

Or maybe is the other way around and they'll rework frames around that system. Like Inaros 1st ability is obviously the choice here, but imagine how powerful would be an instant finisher on Loki? They either rework Inaros or let it be OP.

We'll see how it turns out.

or they just give certain frames a generic ability. Like a generic damage reduction or a generic damage buff. I can totally see them doing that instead of spending time balancing a bunch of unique frame specific powers to be universal. Every frame may not have a unique ability. 

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21 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Unless there's a released list that I don't know about of which powers we're getting, the only confirmed powers are Shock and Pull and I'd say those might even be subject to change, though I doubt it.

theyve revealed a few on twitter and some of their other social media outlets... there were also some shots released on china version showing some other abilities if im not mistaken

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1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Shock is a good ability. It can CC while you reload or buff damage with the augment. 

If I really need that much safety to reload (ignoring the fact that most of my weapons reload themselves or are reloaded by my sentinel.) I have the extreme movement of a warframe to get me to safety, and hard and soft CC in the form of my Operator Dash by itself and also with Magus Lockdown.  I can't imagine wanting or needing that tiny bit of CC with tiny damage from Shock on any frame, including Volt.  I feel like half the reason they're bringing this system in is so they don't have to actually do anything with weak abilities like Shock because you can just take them off in favor of something that doesn't suck.  As for the augment, I'm sure there will be some interesting builds that revolve around other frames using shock and taking up a mod slot for the augment, especially for niche things like Eidolon hunting, but I can't see it being something that would see widespread use.  It might have it's extreme niche uses like Pull, but I would never say it's a "good" ability.  Especially since it's one of the abilities that's only actually useful with a bandaid augment.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

If I really need that much safety to reload (ignoring the fact that most of my weapons reload themselves or are reloaded by my sentinel.) I have the extreme movement of a warframe to get me to safety, and hard and soft CC in the form of my Operator Dash by itself and also with Magus Lockdown.  I can't imagine wanting or needing that tiny bit of CC with tiny damage from Shock on any frame, including Volt.  I feel like half the reason they're bringing this system in is so they don't have to actually do anything with weak abilities like Shock because you can just take them off in favor of something that doesn't suck.  As for the augment, I'm sure there will be some interesting builds that revolve around other frames using shock and taking up a mod slot for the augment, especially for niche things like Eidolon hunting, but I can't see it being something that would see widespread use.  It might have it's extreme niche uses like Pull, but I would never say it's a "good" ability.  Especially since it's one of the abilities that's only actually useful with a bandaid augment.

welp, thats the beauty of the system. You dont need to use it. 

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57 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

DE kind of has a history of going "OOOOH, SHINY" and then not thinking it all the way through before just running with it.  I've been going through each frame and trying to guess what ability we'll get from that frame for fun, and I've got a funny feeling about this.

I have a feeling 2 things are going to happen because of this system:
 

1. People will start calling for individual ability reworks much more frequently.  They showed off Shock and Pull being the skills you get from Volt and Mag.  Neither of those skills are good.  There might be a few really niche cases where you would want pull, but I can't see shock working with any frame.  You can look at the abilities of all the frames in game and for most of them make an educated guess as to what skills we're going to get.  Frost will probably be Freeze.  Banshee will probably be Sonic Boom.  Neither of these are very good either and most likely not worth replacing another skill with.  This system is going to highlight that, hard.  It won't help that this system was talked about as being for endgame players with stockpiles of resources and the ability to just farm up, craft and throw away frames at will.  Shock is not going to help an endgame player do anything but meme around in the starchart.  Sonic Boom is pretty weak CC that isn't really worth going through the trouble of replacing, especially when you can get the same effect with your Operator dash without having to replace anything.

2.  Massive power creep, potentially resulting in nerfs, maybe even to frames that technically could use buffs.  This is all speculation, obviously, so maybe we don't get Sonic Boom from Banshee.  Maybe we get Silence, or even Sonar.  On the right/wrong frames those abilities could be absolutely broken.  In the case of Sonar (which I know won't happen) it would be broken on ANY frame.  But what about Nyx?  Most people think Nyx needs a rework/buff.  But Psychic Bolts is one of the most slept on abilities in the game (and is my guess as to what ability we'll get from her.), and on several other frames would be absolutely broken as it's a recastable, duration based, 100% armor and shield strip for 6 enemies at a time at just 125% power strength.  The fact that it would be really strong on other frames would either be power creep or result in Nyx getting nerfed, or in the Crysalis system getting nerfed into being pointless as they watch what we do and realize that certain frames would become absolutely OP by being able to replace one ability with just a handful of other likely candidates.  

Think about some of the frames that don't really have bad abilities.  Hildryn.  It doesn't matter what ability we get from her, whichever one it is will make many other frames insane.  Trinity.  Same thing.  Well of Life might be pointless on Trinity because Blessing exists, but Well of life to replace one of the more useless skills on several different frames, like Mesa's Ballistic Battery?  Now Mesa can heal the squad.  Or if it's Link, now there's an extra defensive ability for a frame like Excal, who has two completely useless-past-the-star-chart abilities in Slash Dash and Radial Javelin, but could really use a defensive ability.  Link on a melee frame would be extremely strong.  Look at Wisp's kit.  It won't be her "ultimate" even though her 4 is actually her weakest ability.  Any of the other 3 in the right hands on several other frames would be extremely strong.  There's a really long list of abilities that will probably end up being the ability we get that are going to massively shake up frame choice and builds, which is fun, but will definitely result in power creep.  

Nearly every single frame is either going to be putting up an ability that will be completely useless (because it's useless no matter what, or useless outside its kit's synergy) or completely OP.

It's going to be really interesting to see which abilities we get, what sort of restrictions there will be on their use (if any) and how they handle certain frames like Limbo, Grendel and Gauss, whose whole kit relies on synergy and passives.

Shock with “Shock Trooper” Augment.   With High Power Strength you can Buff your Entire team with +200% electrical damage. 

Every Elemental “1” with this type of Augment can boost a kit.

Imagine Harrow or Mesa or Chroma’s Powers being Augmented by that.  Or Rhino or Valkyr.

You’ve got to think outside the box.

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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Yet you do realize that the "bad" abilities that frames can contribute are part of that frame, right? For every frame with one of these you can now swap it for something potentially better. For instance if you don't use the synergies Volt has with Shock then swapping it with anything else is an upgrade. Plus we'll be able to use that abilities augment on any frame with the ability meaning for something like Pull you can now have greedy pull on anyone you want.

As for the fear mongering over nerfs people need to calm down already. The only things that actually get nerfed are the on things that fully deserved it for being too dominant or so overpowered that even DE can't ignore it. Yes there will certainly be some ability that ends up too strong or some synergy that breaks the game but that's inevitable with a system like this. And there is the very obvious solution to the whole problem by just nerfing the ability if it's transferred i.e. if Pull becomes abused/overpowered then it's base range of 25m can be reduced to 15 or 20 on all frames other than Mag.

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59 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

There might be a few really niche cases where you would want pull, but I can't see shock working with any frame.

Shock Trooper.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Either of those would be broken on Wisp.  

What would you be Breaking exactly ?

So Wisp gets more Shields... Big Whoop... il take Haste mote over that anyday.

8 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Her 3 is insane damage output and would increase the DPS of so many frames.

Yes it would... But It would be Far from "Insane"... it would only be Really Good...

10 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Ensnare is excellent CC and for any frame that lacks CC but has one bad ability, that frame just got that much stronger.  

Indeed it has.... but still not "Broken" or Overpowered like Whipclaw would be.

11 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

If we get Mesmer Skin, that would flat out break the game.  Nearly any frame would be capable of running through Steel Path without taking any damage. 

Because Absorbing Damage is the most effective way to Complete Mission Objectives ? 

13 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The enemy just flat out couldn't hurt you. 

Nor would they be trying to hurt you... They would be trying to capture Towers... destroy Defense Objectives... evading Capture and other S#&$ where being Immortal is pointless.

 

I know its been a while but we already had an Immortal Warframe. Wukong before his Rework.... Rage + Defy gave him more Survivability than Inaros.... was this overpwered ? Ofcourse not. Because Personal Survivability does #*!% all to Complete Mission Objectives.... this is why Wukong was literally in dire need of a rework literally more than any and every other Warframe... even more than Ember before Her Rework. 

Wukong is no longer Immortal but he's significantly stronger and more beneficial to mission objectives now. If that doesnt convince you why Mesmer Skin on any Warframe is not as good as it seems on paper then I dont know what to tell ya...

 

 

All these toys and all you care about is more Survivability. 

You Lack The Proper Imagination to Truly Break Warframe 😐

13 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Wait and see

Considering the Rumors that aare popping up lately... this would be the best way to avoid disappointment. 

11 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm just starting discussion on it, because it's interesting to me, not trying to get them to change anything before it even comes out.

If you keep saying: "Broken, OP & Insane".... they will change it.... did you learn nothing from the Xoris Nerfs ? 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)poloslash18 said:

Or maybe is the other way around and they'll rework frames around that system. Like Inaros 1st ability is obviously the choice here, but imagine how powerful would be an instant finisher on Loki? They either rework Inaros or let it be OP.

We'll see how it turns out.

Loki Already gets Finisher Damage Multiplier when he's invisible... Pocket Sand would boost this... but not in any meaningful way considering its Coverage. Its still better than Decoy so Il Take it...

4 minutes ago, SweetAnubis said:

... there were also some shots released on china version showing some other abilities if im not mistaken

Those are the ones that Im most worried about....

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Shock with “Shock Trooper” Augment.   With High Power Strength you can Buff your Entire team with +200% electrical damage. 

Every Elemental “1” with this type of Augment can boost a kit.

Imagine Harrow or Mesa or Chroma’s Powers being Augmented by that.  Or Rhino or Valkyr.

You’ve got to think outside the box.

Since it only Buffs weapon Damage.... Im going to give it a Solid Meh... it would be aggresively good on Mesa though since she has better coverage. But at the same in situation where I really would want this the most is going to get ruined by Ability Immunity anyway.

 

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My concern is if they decide to expand it later to include passives and all abilities.  There needs to be a checklist of some sort (similar to the Dojo research) so you only need to subsume each warframe once (and only once) then any additional abilities can be made available retroactively.  It would really suck to have to subsume each warframe up to 5 times to get everything unlocked.  It could also serve as a useful progress tracker for completionists.

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