The Revenant Rework

[TheGuyver]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

 

You are single handedly the most infuriating person to argue with. You flat out ignore the obvious to go off on tangents

Pot, meet kettle. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 hour ago, TheGuyver said:

Pot, meet kettle. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, TheGuyver said:

Pot, meet kettle. 

My reason and logic are always sound.

I’m still waiting for the answer to “Why use an Eidolon Frame character model if the intent from the start was to make a vampire frame”.

And I mean an actual answer. Not a shallow excuse.

[Kaiune]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

My reason and logic are always sound.

I’m still waiting for the answer to “Why use an Eidolon Frame character model if the intent from the start was to make a vampire frame”.

And I mean an actual answer. Not a shallow excuse.

They did in the story you just wont accept it. I guess we will have to wait till Revenant Prime to see his original look pre corruption if they keep up the Primes are old war Orokin versions of the frames lore they will be coming up on some hard ones to address that with soon with Revenant, Harrow, and possibly Nidus where there story lines may cause issue to the Prime lore.  

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Kaiune said:

They did in the story you just wont accept it. I guess we will have to wait till Revenant Prime to see his original look pre corruption if they keep up the Primes are old war Orokin versions of the frames lore they will be coming up on some hard ones to address that with soon with Revenant, Harrow, and possibly Nidus where there story lines may cause issue to the Prime lore.  

Nothing in Revenants backstory justifies the vampire theme. It makes zero mention of anything even remotely related to what Revenants 1-3 does. Like I’ve said you’re literally gonna have to make things up to find anything related to vampires in Revenants lore.

Already stated in the past that we should really stop expecting prime frames to be lore friendly/accurate. They existed but the form in which we get them in the game may not be completely accurate to the actual prime. It’s how you can get away with putting rage abilities on Valkyr Prime.

[Pizzarugi]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Nothing in Revenants backstory justifies the vampire theme.

He was a warden of the Eidolons following the fall of the Sentient destroyer that tried to besiege the Unum. He doesn't need a vampire story to justify his vampire powers, Revenant existed to keep guard over the remnants of a now-dead threat which eventually got hold of and corrupted him.

Maybe Revenant could use a Leverian entry to have a story about him prior to the corruption, perhaps.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

We’re literally talking about a Warframe infused with Eidolon/sentient energy. How tf are you still on about how that doesn’t work when it’s right in front of your face?

You are single handedly the most infuriating person to argue with. You flat out ignore the obvious to go off on tangents like “Ghosts are vampires” and “Danse Macabre isn’t named after a song of Revenants development leads favorite band. It’s named off a painting that has no other connection to the ability outside of the name”. It’s like you deliberately try to find the least logical way to think about something.

No we arent, because there is no eidolon/sentient energy. What is mentioned in his lore is "essence of eidolon", which isnt the same as saying he has anything sentient in him. All it indicates is that he uses the same energy that brought the eidolons to "life" to keep himself "alive".

And danse is named after the song which is named after the painting, which is named and inspired by an old folk tale invented by the church to keep people from having extravagant feasts, balls, proms and so on.

edit: And the vamp theme is pretty obvious with rev still. His story even has connections to the story of Vlad with the whole self sacrifice to defend a people, making him succumb to the powers of "evil" in the process and getting corrupted.

[CopperBezel]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What is mentioned in his lore is "essence of eidolon", which isnt the same as saying he has anything sentient in him. All it indicates is that he uses the same energy that brought the eidolons to "life" to keep himself "alive".

I feel like arguing with this is eventually going to result in having to prove to you that the Eidolons are Sentients. Like, I don't agree with Gears that Revenant desperately needs a full kit and theme rework, and I definitely don't agree with the DE-hates-us whining, but this is just not a sensible lore argument. Revenant is as Sentient as he and every other frame is Infested. And considering we can use Sentient weapons, your pet theory that Sentients just melt when you attach them to warframes or, say, use the Void to teleport them around as we do with Operator mode, is just already demonstrated untrue. Thralls' silly hats are already meant to evoke Vomvalysts. A frame being able to call up Vomvalysts or something similar in the way that Eidolons do would not break anything. 

[nslay]

6 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I feel like arguing with this is eventually going to result in having to prove to you that the Eidolons are Sentients. Like, I don't agree with Gears that Revenant desperately needs a full kit and theme rework, and I definitely don't agree with the DE-hates-us whining, but this is just not a sensible lore argument. Revenant is as Sentient as he and every other frame is Infested. And considering we can use Sentient weapons, your pet theory that Sentients just melt when you attach them to warframes or, say, use the Void to teleport them around as we do with Operator mode, is just already demonstrated untrue. Thralls' silly hats are already meant to evoke Vomvalysts. A frame being able to call up Vomvalysts or something similar in the way that Eidolons do would not break anything. 

It would cause lore problems in Void missions where Revenant is seemingly able to venture without issue. But not Vomvalysts which should start decaying like the Battalysts and Conculysts we see decyaing in Void. Still... you could argue that Revenant could shield his hypothetical Vomvalysts much like Hunhow does his Battalyst and Conculyst intruders. And I have always wondered why Revenant is able to venture into Void without problems... despite his unique background with Eidolons!

[selig_fay]

11 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m still waiting for the answer to “Why use an Eidolon Frame character model if the intent from the start was to make a vampire frame”.

Because eidolons are vampires.I'm tired of counting how many times you've been told this.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

This is not a rework. This is a full Redesign of the frame in its totality..

As others have mentioned.. it could never happen.. and i will add that as much as i like these ideas, we are unlikely to get another eidolon themed frame.. or a more accurately themed one at all. Thats just how DE do.

Revenant is their vampire eidolon hybrid. And while i actually like revenants moveset, i do think he is the single biggest thematic mess in this game.

Not to mention how flipping pointless most of his synergies are.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I feel like arguing with this is eventually going to result in having to prove to you that the Eidolons are Sentients. Like, I don't agree with Gears that Revenant desperately needs a full kit and theme rework, and I definitely don't agree with the DE-hates-us whining, but this is just not a sensible lore argument. Revenant is as Sentient as he and every other frame is Infested. And considering we can use Sentient weapons, your pet theory that Sentients just melt when you attach them to warframes or, say, use the Void to teleport them around as we do with Operator mode, is just already demonstrated untrue. Thralls' silly hats are already meant to evoke Vomvalysts. A frame being able to call up Vomvalysts or something similar in the way that Eidolons do would not break anything. 

Yes the eidolons are sentients, but that doesnt mean that Rev is sentient just because he wields the essence of eidolons. Only earth has a presence of actual eidolons, we only know of one sentient that turned into eidolons. So all it tells us is that revenant is afflicted by that same energy that made the eidolons reanimate. 

The big guys are simply eidolon sentients and Rev is an eidolon warframe, or more accurately they are both "undead" versions of their original self. Eidolon isnt a sentient description to begin with, it is an earth word from the very region cetus is located in. The "lyst" is the designation of the specific sentients. So Terry. Garry and Harry are whatever they were while part of the massive sentient, they just happen to be eidolon versions of the originals. Likely they were somehow part of the sentient's weapon systems.

The thing that Gears tries to imply is that there is some special sentient magic involved, which there is no indication of. We only know of the Unum's bomb which held some energy to originally trap the eidolons. We also know that energy somehow was connected to Rev, which is why he sacrificed himself to close that rift instead of being the constant anchor into our world.

[CopperBezel]

We're told that the Eidolons are remnants of the sentient that was originally destroyed and that Revenant's special magic does indeed come from this Sentient. "Eidolon" is indeed an Earth word, but it's a word for the thing that the Eidolons are, and the Plains of Eidolon are named for them, you know, the plains with the eidolons in. Any additional, even more special ghost magic in addition to whatever Sentient magic was involved in the first place is speculation.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

He was a warden of the Eidolons following the fall of the Sentient destroyer that tried to besiege the Unum. He doesn't need a vampire story to justify his vampire powers, Revenant existed to keep guard over the remnants of a now-dead threat which eventually got hold of and corrupted him.

Maybe Revenant could use a Leverian entry to have a story about him prior to the corruption, perhaps.

Nothing you said counters my claim. I’m aware that he was a Warden to the Eidolons. But there’s no mention of what his powers were before being turned into Revenant. So we have to assume that it doesn’t matter because him becoming an Eidolon frame granted him new powers. But those new powers have absolutely nothing to do with Eidolons.

I don’t think quest frames get Leverians.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

10 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Because eidolons are vampires.I'm tired of counting how many times you've been told this.

Eidolons are not vampires. There is not enough similarities between Eidolons and the general concept of a vampire to say they are the same thing.

They’re honestly more in line with zombies.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

17 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No we arent, because there is no eidolon/sentient energy. What is mentioned in his lore is "essence of eidolon", which isnt the same as saying he has anything sentient in him. All it indicates is that he uses the same energy that brought the eidolons to "life" to keep himself "alive".

And danse is named after the song which is named after the painting, which is named and inspired by an old folk tale invented by the church to keep people from having extravagant feasts, balls, proms and so on.

edit: And the vamp theme is pretty obvious with rev still. His story even has connections to the story of Vlad with the whole self sacrifice to defend a people, making him succumb to the powers of "evil" in the process and getting corrupted.

But that still makes Revenant Eidolon themed. And it makes zero sense to make a frame who’s abilities have no connection to their theme. It’s like if they swapped Gauss and Grendels abilities and still claimed Gauss was stillkinetic energy and Grendel was still the devourer.

But the ability isn’t named after the painting. It’s named after the song. Revs profile video even has a line from the song in it, or at least a reference.
 

Story telling similarities is not enough to justify a completely disconnected ability set. It’s like saying “Gara blew herself up to save the Unum. Guess we can give her the powers of the Iron Giant”.

[selig_fay]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They’re honestly more in line with zombies.

hmm. zombies are undead. vampires are undead. everything, theory confirmed, gear confirmed. xD

[SneakyErvin]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that still makes Revenant Eidolon themed. And it makes zero sense to make a frame who’s abilities have no connection to their theme. It’s like if they swapped Gauss and Grendels abilities and still claimed Gauss was stillkinetic energy and Grendel was still the devourer.

But the ability isn’t named after the painting. It’s named after the song. Revs profile video even has a line from the song in it, or at least a reference.
 

Story telling similarities is not enough to justify a completely disconnected ability set. It’s like saying “Gara blew herself up to save the Unum. Guess we can give her the powers of the Iron Giant”.

But what abilities arent eidolon themed?

1. Controls lesser beings, eidolons control voms to help them.

2. Meh well, yeah maybe not spot on eidolon themed, though it could easily be a stand in for the unique eidolon shields.

3. Voms use a similar skill, Voms on the plains are eidolons as their name indicates. Large eidolons can also teleport across the whole map.

4. Same lightshow as one of the eidolons use. It is more or less identical, the difference is it comes directly from Revs hands and not from a floating flatform.

It is actually harder to find any specific vampire theme in the skills, even though all of them except #4 fit in on a generic vampire concept with enthrallment, bedazzlement/mesmerization and mist movement. Though those things are shared with other creatures aswell that fall under the revenant monicer, so they more just fit his name and not vampires specifically.

And when did anyone say it was named after the painting?

[TheGuyver]

10 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Because eidolons are vampires.I'm tired of counting how many times you've been told this.

No, vampires are revenants and revenants are vampires. The words are basically interchangeable. An Eidolon is a phantom, a spirit, without corporeal form. That's why they scream, because they're trying to put themselves back together since their remains are scattered among the plains. That's why the gauntalyst has a boulder for an arm. 

Revenant is the vampire, the warden, who kept them in check so they wouldn't rise and cause havoc, until he was corrupted by them. His first three abilities are all inspired by vampire related themes, with the ultimate being an exception. 

It's a shame OP can't accept this. 

[Solarsyphon]

I'd say his current abilities are actually pretty on theme for Eidolons. What do they do they spawn wisps that is his thralls, they ignore all damage except void that's his Mesmer skin, the teleport that's his reave and they shoot lasers that's his danse macabre. You could argue they should change some visual effects to make it look a little closer to eidolons but mechanically the only non eidolon aspect of his kit is that he mind controls instead of making his own wisps and personally I think the mind control is more interesting. 

For a serious change I think his big issue is not whether he fits his theme but the reality that Danse macabre is a meme. My advice is replace the silly spinning laser with a one off nuke that you can make look like the wail. Make it strip shields and armor, detonate all the wisps do those pillar things and then let them do the damage. Maybe buff their projectiles a bit to be big rapid fire blobs like what the teralyst does.
 

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, TheGuyver said:

No, vampires are revenants and revenants are vampires.

Well yes and no. Not all revenants are vampires, several revenants share abilities with vampires though. A poltergeist is a revenant, same as a normal ghost, they feed on the life force of the living, but they cannot turn into animals or mist, nor do they have corporeal forms. Both of the two can also possess people, but they dont enthrall people like a vampire.

Just as the Draugr can turn into mist and sustain himself through consumption of the living, but he cannot enthrall people. He can drive people mad, he can also turn them into his servants by killing them and eating their brain. He is also obsessed with riches, but those traits arent shared with vampires, ghosts or poltergeists.

[TheGuyver]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Well yes and no. Not all revenants are vampires, several revenants share abilities with vampires though. A poltergeist is a revenant, same as a normal ghost, they feed on the life force of the living, but they cannot turn into animals or mist, nor do they have corporeal forms. Both of the two can also possess people, but they dont enthrall people like a vampire.

Just as the Draugr can turn into mist and sustain himself through consumption of the living, but he cannot enthrall people. He can drive people mad, he can also turn them into his servants by killing them and eating their brain. He is also obsessed with riches, but those traits arent shared with vampires, ghosts or poltergeists.

While this is correct, I was speaking in broader terms as a whole, since you don't really need to dig too deep to find out just where the themes in the kit come from. If we were to really put the vampire thing under a microscope we would be here all day lol

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, TheGuyver said:

While this is correct, I was speaking in broader terms as a whole, since you don't really need to dig too deep to find out just where the themes in the kit come from. If we were to really put the vampire thing under a microscope we would be here all day lol

Sadly that is what Gears does. He implies vampire frame would mean Dracula frame, he ignores ancient vampiric origins. Like he does in every thread where people bring up the similarities to both eidolons and vampires in the skills he has. 

The whole kits (except 4) fits both themes while the story of the frame falls inline with that of Vlad, although not identical.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well yes and no. Not all revenants are vampires, several revenants share abilities with vampires though. A poltergeist is a revenant, same as a normal ghost, they feed on the life force of the living, but they cannot turn into animals or mist, nor do they have corporeal forms. Both of the two can also possess people, but they dont enthrall people like a vampire.

Just as the Draugr can turn into mist and sustain himself through consumption of the living, but he cannot enthrall people. He can drive people mad, he can also turn them into his servants by killing them and eating their brain. He is also obsessed with riches, but those traits arent shared with vampires, ghosts or poltergeists.

The revenant is not about being. A revenant is a being who has been able to return from another world, space, etc., and who has received a certain mark of distinction from this space. This sign, in most cases, is the ability to see the souls of the dead. In principle, influence can be represented in different ways, for example, when a person is under the influence of another world completely changes his opinion about things that he was sure of before he got to another space.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, selig_fay said:

hmm. zombies are undead. vampires are undead. everything, theory confirmed, gear confirmed. xD

Zombies aren’t vampires. There’s a reason they are called zombies and not vampires. It’s because they are 2 very different things. Just because something is undead does not automatically make it a vampire.