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The Revenant Rework


(XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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10 hours ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

Wait, what happened to him being a Vampire frame?

clip notes version:

DE started development on new frame. They chose the concept art of an Eidolon Frame one of their artists made.

Because everyone was working on Fortuna at the time they let Rebecca lead his development.

She made him a vampire for no reason outside of her obsession with vampires. And apparently nobody was supervising her.

Few months later when they reveal Revenant he’s shown to have a completely vampire themed kit with no Eidolon connections outside of his frame design. Steve didn’t like this and said that “The Eidolon frame actually needs to have Eidolon powers”, and that’s how we got Danse Macabre.

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On 2020-08-31 at 1:31 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Your passive idea sounds more like something that should be on Xaku.

Honestly yeah but Xaku and Revenant are sorta blurred, a lot of people have been talking about how Xaku looks more like an eidolon then revenant which is both funny and sad

On 2020-08-31 at 1:31 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Correct, I wasn’t going for a Damage minion as there is only 1 good one and Vomvalysts don’t lead to way to using what makes that minion good. I provided both the healing and the distraction, but I didn’t feel like that was enough for an ability so I threw the explosion on death onto them tho I personally think it’s going to be rather useless. But hey every good frame has 1 or 2 useless mechanics on them.

Glad to know I got that bit right : )- and yeah almost all good frames have something useless, it is just a shame to have anything useless to begin with, especially when speaking from a hypothetical standpoint like we are now.

On 2020-08-31 at 1:31 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Not a fan of spawning Vomvalysts through enemies.

It would probably be too clunky yeah, I threw it on their cause I wanted a quick example way of spawning more vomvalysts without it being a boring old recast or gain over time- 

Would the idea be more appealing if the marked enemies took additional damage- then the vomvalyst summon idea I proposed would provide

-Aggro drawing

-Damage vulnerability to an increasing number of enemies

-Shield restore and radial damage

On 2020-08-31 at 1:31 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Interesting and good are two very different things. Current Revenant has the issue where his base ability functions are awful and useless and they completely rely on their synergies to do anything. Which isn’t fun or really all that engaging. I want to focus on making good abilities first that stand on their own, and then throwing in synergies where it’s beneficial to do so.

Perhaps- I believe the two are linked. You can create something good on paper, but if it is boring and uninteresting you will get that reaction, boredom, but if you create a unique mechanic that still fills a purpose, even if less useful then another ability it will still be used more often then not. I agree that abilities must stand on their own before you focus on making them unique, but I also believe that unless you build the unique mechanic into the ability from scratch it will come across as rushed and clunky- Revenant as he is is the perfect example- standalone each ability doesnt sound too bad- 

1-A mind control ability too distract enemies and spread between enemies while still providing dot aoe when killed ooh boy

2-A free damage immunity and stun ooh boy

3-A dash that damages and leaches hp from allies ooh boy

4-Laser beams that adapt their damage to enemies and can be boosted when under attack ooh boy

but when combined they fall short because the synergies are tagged on instead of built into the core feel of the abilities- 

On 2020-08-31 at 1:31 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m open to any suggestions for a 4 alternative that resonates with the rest of the kit.

Ill take a shot at creating one on the fly, though I would love to talk more in depth about a full kit to try and create the best possible product as I am still wishy washy on some of your stats and effects and would prefer to create one in depth concept 

4- Revenant summons the spectral pieces of an eidolon which spawn in various locations within range- 5 pieces(4 limbs and one head) each protruding from the ground in a random location- These Pieces function as proxies for his abilities in order to maximize their effect-

To balance out their range of effects the Pieces can be destroyed by enemies, each piece having a health and armor rating based on Revenants stats multiplied by an amount determined by strength-

Passive effect- Pieces disrupt the environment- dealing magnetic or radiation damage like the eidolons in game blood effect

When casting 1- Each piece summons an additional vomvalyst that draws aggro away from the piece and performs the same functions- if the vomvalyst dies while revenant still has his own active an additional vomvalyst will spawn

(i picked only one vomvalyst since thats already an extra 5 on top of your 7- thats 12 total giving your team 6 free revives and about a gajillion other effects)

When casting 2- Each peace gains 50% of the initial effect(that meaning half the shield and armor strip and 45% base dr since they already have a multiplied hp and armor bar) and share the resistance stacking effect with you- effectively increasing the rate at which you achieve maximum resistance

when casting 3- creates its own aoe effect that stuns enemies-(always has the effect of your hold cast- effectively this just increases the number of enemies you stun and debuff

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8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

clip notes version:

DE started development on new frame. They chose the concept art of an Eidolon Frame one of their artists made.

Because everyone was working on Fortuna at the time they let Rebecca lead his development.

She made him a vampire for no reason outside of her obsession with vampires. And apparently nobody was supervising her.

Few months later when they reveal Revenant he’s shown to have a completely vampire themed kit with no Eidolon connections outside of his frame design. Steve didn’t like this and said that “The Eidolon frame actually needs to have Eidolon powers”, and that’s how we got Danse Macabre.

I choose to believe that revenants Lore in game is sort of a mirror for his development- in that originally he was a vampire warframe and then he got converted to become an eidolon. Not an excuse for him to make no frickin sense just my headcanon. I think when revenant(not if when) gets a rework they should split him into two frames- a true eidolon and a vampire frame.

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On 2020-08-28 at 5:35 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It doesn’t make sense. WTF is the point of the Eidolon angle if there was no intention of incorporating it into the design. There’s not even a mention of vampires or equivalent anywhere in Revenants backstory, so there’s no reason those powers should be on him.

 

This is the equivalent of asking what's the point of the harlequin angle on Mirage if her gimmick is light manipulation or the metal angle is on Khora if she's a beastmaster...

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Just now, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

This is the equivalent of asking what's the point of the harlequin angle on Mirage if her gimmick is light manipulation or the metal angle is on Khora if she's a beastmaster...

She’s the magic/illusion frame. And iirc harlequins back in the day would perform magic tricks amongst other things.

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47 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

This is the equivalent of asking what's the point of the harlequin angle on Mirage if her gimmick is light manipulation or the metal angle is on Khora if she's a beastmaster...

I mean, the Harlequin part actually makes sense as it goes with her light-manipulation theme. She's a trickster, illusionist. Does seemingly impossible feats with the trick of the light

 

 

Khora? Yeah definitely a miss. I like using her thanks to Venari, but her theme is a bit mixed up, and it's probably because of her mid-development revision after the damage rework she was supposed to be packaged with didn't pan out.

 

 

I'll be honest, I thought she was meant to be a spider-frame. Look at her head, her ass-skirt, Strangledome, and her femme-persona.

Edited by (PS4)GingyGreen
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  • 2 weeks later...

"DE started development on new frame. They chose the concept art of an Eidolon Frame one of their artists made."

Wasn't he a vampire frame from the start and then was tied to eidolons? I mean, his codename was Vlad. And he doesn't look like eidolons. The energy that flows through him has notning in common with eidolon tentacles. His head looks like unicorn head, but definetly not like teralyst head. The only common thing he has with eidolons in terms of look is tentacles on Rev shoulder when he casts mesmer skin. If anything, Xaku looks more like eidolon. So yeah, Revenant is a vampire frame that got tainted by Eidolons, he is not Eidolon warframe and never will be. In fact, Revenant looks like a ghost or undead with all those spoopy flames around him, and that makes sense, since he is kinda... you know... Revenant, undead creature.

Edited by Adramahlihk
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Holy crap 17 pages, excuse me for not reading all replies.

Just wanted to voice my thoughts on the topic. The idea of the Vomalysts sounds fun, perhaps a bit OP here and there but with some adjustments could be cool. I agree that minions as damage dealers never rly worked well (mainly because they dont do damage hah) so utility is much better choice. In fact this is what I suggested to do with Atlas Rumblers, make them "bodyguard" other players giving them slight damage resistance or armor (or just take damage on behalf of the target). 

I don't much like the idea of another exalted weapon though, I never liked the previous ones we have on other frames either all that much. Perhaps a lightning storm instead, similar to what the 3rd eidolon does, zapping enemies for a specific duration for damage and stun. Or the corrosive rain.

 

Or just rework him completely as the vampire he is apparently supposed to be o_O

Edited by xombob89
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В 15.09.2020 в 23:01, xombob89 сказал:

Holy crap 17 pages, excuse me for not reading all replies.

Just wanted to voice my thoughts on the topic. The idea of the Vomalysts sounds fun, perhaps a bit OP here and there but with some adjustments could be cool. I agree that minions as damage dealers never rly worked well (mainly because they dont do damage hah) so utility is much better choice. In fact this is what I suggested to do with Atlas Rumblers, make them "bodyguard" other players giving them slight damage resistance or armor (or just take damage on behalf of the target). 

I don't much like the idea of another exalted weapon though, I never liked the previous ones we have on other frames either all that much. Perhaps a lightning storm instead, similar to what the 3rd eidolon does, zapping enemies for a specific duration for damage and stun. Or the corrosive rain.

 

Or just rework him completely as the vampire he is apparently supposed to be o_O

Well, all texts that feature Revenant also mentions his thralls, plus, on Rev poster he is hanging out with his thralls, so if they replace thralls with vomvalysts they have to redo all posters and rewrite all texts with Revenant, I don't think that DE are going to do this, too much work to just replace one minion ability with another. Perhaps, instead of light pillars, thralls would turn into vomvalysts on death and hover around revenant acting as his bodyguards, when Revenant dies, one vomvalyst sacrifice his life and ressurects Revenant. There could be cap at 4 vomvalysts and 7 thralls,making 11 servants in total. Thralls would be a distraction and vomvalysts would be Revenant personal guards. I think that would keep his thrall theme  while also giving him eidolon vibe. Vomvalysts could actually heal you, and reave would just do percentage damage and debuff enemies, making them more vulnerable, without health leechining. When vomvalyst dies, he becomes spectre for 5 second, if you reave through spectral vomvalyst you will bring him back to life, if you don't vomvalyst dies permanently.

For mesmer, i guess you can make it so he sacrifices 50% of his current health to eidolons and gets protection in form of 8 charges, these charges also displayed as tentacles on Rev shoulder, 1 tentacle - 1 charge, Reaving through non-spectral vomvalyst with mesmer active will drain 100% of their health and give you 2 charges of mesmer.

 

Edited by Adramahlihk
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On 2020-09-16 at 6:01 AM, Adramahlihk said:

Well, all texts that feature Revenant also mentions his thralls, plus, on Rev poster he is hanging out with his thralls, so if they replace thralls with vomvalysts they have to redo all posters and rewrite all texts with Revenant, I don't think that DE are going to do this, too much work to just replace one minion ability with another. Perhaps, instead of light pillars, thralls would turn into vomvalysts on death and hover around revenant acting as his bodyguards, when Revenant dies, one vomvalyst sacrifice his life and ressurects Revenant. There could be cap at 4 vomvalysts and 7 thralls,making 11 servants in total. Thralls would be a distraction and vomvalysts would be Revenant personal guards. I think that would keep his thrall theme  while also giving him eidolon vibe. Vomvalysts could actually heal you, and reave would just do percentage damege and debuff enemies, making them more vulnerable, without health leechining. When vomvalyst dies, he becomes spectre for 5 second, if you reave through spectral vomvalyst you will bring him back to life, if you don't vomvalyst dies permanently.

For mesmer, i guess you can make it so he sacrifices 50% of his current health to eidolons and gets protection in form of 8 charges, these charges also displayed as tentacles on Rev shoulder, 1 tentacle - 1 charge, Reaving through non-spectral vomvalyst with mesmer active will drain 100% of their health and give you 2 charges of mesmer.

 

That is an fantastic idea, hope DE sees this post before Rebbeca does.

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On 2020-09-03 at 10:11 AM, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

I mean, the Harlequin part actually makes sense as it goes with her light-manipulation theme. She's a trickster, illusionist. Does seemingly impossible feats with the trick of the light

 

 

Khora? Yeah definitely a miss. I like using her thanks to Venari, but her theme is a bit mixed up, and it's probably because of her mid-development revision after the damage rework she was supposed to be packaged with didn't pan out.

 

 

I'll be honest, I thought she was meant to be a spider-frame. Look at her head, her ass-skirt, Strangledome, and her femme-persona.

I think Khora was supposed to be metal themed in some manner. 

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I think Khora was supposed to be metal themed in some manner. 

In that case they completely screwed that up. Nothing about her abilities directly relates to metal or even the quality of metal except...that the word metal might be mentioned a few times in ability descriptions.

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On 2020-09-15 at 1:01 PM, xombob89 said:

Holy crap 17 pages, excuse me for not reading all replies.

Just wanted to voice my thoughts on the topic. The idea of the Vomalysts sounds fun, perhaps a bit OP here and there but with some adjustments could be cool. I agree that minions as damage dealers never rly worked well (mainly because they dont do damage hah) so utility is much better choice. In fact this is what I suggested to do with Atlas Rumblers, make them "bodyguard" other players giving them slight damage resistance or armor (or just take damage on behalf of the target). 

I don't much like the idea of another exalted weapon though, I never liked the previous ones we have on other frames either all that much. Perhaps a lightning storm instead, similar to what the 3rd eidolon does, zapping enemies for a specific duration for damage and stun. Or the corrosive rain.

 

Or just rework him completely as the vampire he is apparently supposed to be o_O

I had an Idea for Atlas’s 4 that he could use Rubble to charge up the damage of Rumblers. But that would require more changes to make that actually be practical and good. And this isn’t an Atlas rework thread.

You’re just suggesting Volts Discharge.

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Just now, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

In that case they completely screwed that up. Nothing about her abilities directly relates to metal or even the quality of metal except...that the word metal might be mentioned a few times in ability descriptions.

Well she was originally supposed to switch between the IPS damage types and the texture of her changing spikes look very metallic. So it was really using the metal theme to push the IPS switching.

Ensnare and Strangledome also have a metallic texture on them. Tho Strangledome was not part of Khoras original design before Damage 2.5 waste scrapped and Khora got put in development Hell.

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On 2020-09-14 at 4:24 AM, Adramahlihk said:

"DE started development on new frame. They chose the concept art of an Eidolon Frame one of their artists made."

Wasn't he a vampire frame from the start and then was tied to eidolons? I mean, his codename was Vlad. And he doesn't look like eidolons. The energy that flows through him has notning in common with eidolon tentacles. His head looks like unicorn head, but definetly not like teralyst head. The only common thing he has with eidolons in terms of look is tentacles on Rev shoulder when he casts mesmer skin. If anything, Xaku looks more like eidolon. So yeah, Revenant is a vampire frame that got tainted by Eidolons, he is not Eidolon warframe and never will be. In fact, Revenant looks like a ghost or undead with all those spoopy flames around him, and that makes sense, since he is kinda... you know... Revenant, undead creature.

I mean....you’re just wrong. No other way to say it.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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26 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well she was originally supposed to switch between the IPS damage types and the texture of her changing spikes look very metallic. So it was really using the metal theme to push the IPS switching.

Ensnare and Strangledome also have a metallic texture on them. Tho Strangledome was not part of Khoras original design before Damage 2.5 waste scrapped and Khora got put in development Hell.

Eh...that'd have been an awful design. That's the Xaku-method of kit design, where she is a void frame just because the word void comes up in her ability descriptions and her powers are supposedly void-looking however that's supposed to look. So I'm slightly glad she's what she is now even if I'm still critical with her overall confused design.

 

 

To take an example of a well designed frame whose kit both works and actually translates well into their identity look no further than Grendel and Gauss. They're both great frames that are actually useful all throughout the game.

 

With Gauss, his main schtick is manipulation of Kinetic energy, he's basically a race car frame with a focus on running fast. His 1 speaks for itself. From absorbing kinetic energy of things he's in contact with, so absorbing/expelling kinetic energy, to overdriving his kinetic battery.

 

With Grendel, his gluttony theme literally speaks for itself in his abilities, all of which feed off his signature Feast ability and can only work with it.

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  • 4 months later...

Preferably into an actually Eidolon themed Warframe.

It’s increasingly upsetting to have such an amazing theme idea get completely replaced by a vampire theme that literally comes out of nowhere. All while he still retains an Eidolon appearance.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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10 minutes ago, (PSN)Ragology said:

I'm not sure. 

I think Revenant is one of DE rebecca's favorite frames (she even got super emotional when talking about his deluxe yesterday) so he might not get the kind of rework that could do his eidolon theme enough justice.

Yeah, not a big fan of a frame being “quality-gated” by one person.

Like this is going to sound mean. But I don’t care that Rebecca has a big emotional attachment to Revenant. Because ultimately it’s actively hurting Revenant.

If Rebecca wants a vampire frame I’m perfectly fine with her designing the abilities of a frame that’s specifically tailored to a vampire theme. And then someone else can come in and give Revenant Eidolons abilities.

That is a far better way to do things than what’s essentially Rebecca getting what she wants at the expense of others.

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40 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

No.

Revenant is fine, he just needs QoL tweaks to his kit, especially for thralls so teammates stop murdering his minions and interrupting skill synergies.

And as we’ve established his issues go much deeper than that. You’re denial of them doesn’t make them go away.

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7 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And as we’ve established his issues go much deeper than that. You’re denial of them doesn’t make them go away.

And as we've established, his issues can be fixed with QoL and doesn't need to be nuked from orbit. You not liking his theme doesn't mean he should go away.

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