The Revenant Rework

[ArcticHelix]

How to fix revenant without a kit rework a guide for dummies:
1: Make his base energy 225
2: make thralls killable by you only
3: make the damage from his 4 2,500 at base and remove hold to boost as the damage from that gets moved to being its base damage
4: Make his 4th have scaling damage like flachette orb
5: boost the energy consumption rate due to the increase in damage to the 4 and the overall energy increase

[nslay]

On 2021-01-31 at 8:28 PM, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

The problem with your claim is that it's pretty easily possible for anyone to stroll through Gear's post history to see how he dismisses people's counter arguments and how his entire crusade is purely based on a subjective take on the frame. 

What we need now is @SneakyErvin to come waltzing in here and make the very reasonable suggestion that Revenant might have originally been a vampire frame that got corrupted by Eidolon sentient energy... then we'll have an entire back-and-forth about what "corrupted" means and how bathing in sentient energy for 1000 years erases the old frame and makes the new frame fully kitted with only Eidolon abilities.

[Teridax68]

On 2021-02-01 at 1:28 AM, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

The problem with your claim is that it's pretty easily possible for anyone to stroll through Gear's post history to see how he dismisses people's counter arguments and how his entire crusade is purely based on a subjective take on the frame. 

 

They wanted one thing. We got another thing. Arguments made by them are attempts to give validity to what they are asking for. 

So the debate isn't based on logics or facts or w.e you're attempting to say. 

 

No one is saying that Gears has never made any valid points or criticisms against the design. I actually used to agree with them a long time ago. The issue is ultimately they use their distaste of the frame to write off any points that counter their claims about the performance of the frame. 

 

That ultimately they don't care about arguments against them. Gears wants a different frame to match the headcannon of the frame they thought Revnant would/should be. And it's because this is so clear that no one wants to hear what they have to say. Why we're all tired of hearing Gears talk about Revnant. 

 

It would be like if I tried to change vauban into a completely different warframe purely because what I think an engineer frame isn't what DE thinks is an enginer frame. 

This is also how I see it. While I can certainly agree that this forum isn't really the best place for constructive discussion, and isn't even always really representative of the playerbase as a whole, I think the main reason why this thread and its creator have generated so much backlash is because their approach to the topic is fundamentally wrong, and rooted in what is ultimately a deliberate disconnect from everyone else. While I can agree with Gears on a superficial level that Revenant has some serious thematic and gameplay issues, it's essentially impossible for anyone to really agree much further, because the entire premise of this thread is to take the warframe and bend him out of shape to suit the highly specific fantasy of a single person, everyone else be damned. It's not just that the concept isn't made with other players in mind, the OP seems to take genuine glee in antagonizing other players. This isn't even really a crusade to change Revenant, it's just one long, sad cry for attention.

[p_silveira]

9 hours ago, PrinceMeliodas said:

2: make thralls killable by you only

For the love of god, YES!!
Even more now with that augment that gives you +damage for weapons for each thrall you have. You can't get any decent bonus damage if thralls can't live for more than 3 seconds because there is a trigger-happy teammate with a Bramma wiping them out.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

10 hours ago, PrinceMeliodas said:

How to fix revenant without a kit rework a guide for dummies:
1: Make his base energy 225
2: make thralls killable by you only
3: make the damage from his 4 2,500 at base and remove hold to boost as the damage from that gets moved to being its base damage
4: Make his 4th have scaling damage like flachette orb
5: boost the energy consumption rate due to the increase in damage to the 4 and the overall energy increase

making Thralls only killable by Revenant could potentially open several trolling options

His 4 already scales by converting damage dealt to him. It’s gimped because Mesmer skin actively reduces the number of enemies shooting you. Which is why replacing Mesmer with Defy actually makes Revenant a better frame.

Also, Danse is already the highest drain ability in the game. It doesn’t need to be higher.

4 hours ago, nslay said:

What we need now is @SneakyErvin to come waltzing in here and make the very reasonable suggestion that Revenant might have originally been a vampire frame that got corrupted by Eidolon sentient energy... then we'll have an entire back-and-forth about what "corrupted" means and how bathing in sentient energy for 1000 years erases the old frame and makes the new frame fully kitted with only Eidolon abilities.

No, Ervin was he one that was like “He’s undead and all undead are automatically vampires”.

[p_silveira]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

making Thralls only killable by Revenant could potentially open several trolling options

 

Not really.

Defense - Revenant's thralls don't count for defense wave count, if you kill the last non enthralled enemy on a defense wave and only have thralls left, the wave will count as "past" and the game will start a new wave as if there was no enemy there whatsoever. That's already in the game, it's not a suggestion from me.

Capture - Capture targets cannot be enthralled (among other things, Nyx mind control also doesn't work on them, and many other abilities also do not).

Exterminate - Easily solved by putting them on the same condition as other immortal enemies-turned-minions already in the game (like Nyx mind control, Nidus parasitic link, Garuda blood altar, etc): all the damage dealt to an enemy after he has been minion-ized is dealt to him as soon as the ability duration ends. That's insta death if they're the last enemies on the floor to be killed.

[p_silveira]

Plus, I'd add a QoL change to Enthrall in addition to enthralled enemies only being damaged from Revenant: the ability to mass-un-entrhall every thrall you have on the map by holding the ability key. That also solves the problem of having all your thralls 3 tiles away when you want to make new thralls in another tileset.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is also how I see it. While I can certainly agree that this forum isn't really the best place for constructive discussion, and isn't even always really representative of the playerbase as a whole, I think the main reason why this thread and its creator have generated so much backlash is because their approach to the topic is fundamentally wrong, and rooted in what is ultimately a deliberate disconnect from everyone else. While I can agree with Gears on a superficial level that Revenant has some serious thematic and gameplay issues, it's essentially impossible for anyone to really agree much further, because the entire premise of this thread is to take the warframe and bend him out of shape to suit the highly specific fantasy of a single person, everyone else be damned. It's not just that the concept isn't made with other players in mind, the OP seems to take genuine glee in antagonizing other players. This isn't even really a crusade to change Revenant, it's just one long, sad cry for attention.

Highly specific fantasy? You agree that he should be Eidolon themed. And I’ve explained to you in extremely fine detail how my rework idea is Eidolon themed. You just kept getting hung up on how it “needs tau Damage” (which is a horrible idea we know nothing about tau damage and it’s liable to be another void damage on Xaku incident), and how my 2nd ability idea is still vampire themed despite its influence being both an Eidolon ability for the visuals and the Eidolon lore of them putting themselves back together using their surroundings. Which is why I stopped arguing with you. Because your arguments were getting hyper nit picky and overall illogical.

I’m genuinely not doing this for attention. I literally just want Revenant to be reworked to be properly Eidolon themed. I didn’t choose for all these people to come in and be like “He’s fine as he is if you ignore all the glaring issues both mechanically and thematically”. I’m aggressive about this because I want Revenant to be fixed, and I neither want to wait years on end for it to happen, nor it be completely ignored because there’s such a loud minority defending him. I’ve even accepted the option of putting his abilities on a completely separate frame as with Sevagoth releasing I don’t have to care that Revenants abilities suck, because Sevagoth provides the abilities I would’ve wanted from a vampire frame too.

 

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, nslay said:

What we need now is @SneakyErvin to come waltzing in here and make the very reasonable suggestion that Revenant might have originally been a vampire frame that got corrupted by Eidolon sentient energy... then we'll have an entire back-and-forth about what "corrupted" means and how bathing in sentient energy for 1000 years erases the old frame and makes the new frame fully kitted with only Eidolon abilities.

At the moment it is a lost cause since a certain someone always prefers to read what he wants instead of what is written, in the case of Revenant atleast. When it comes to other subjects that person is quite reasonable though.

The only thing I do hope for is that DE never pushes the "sentient" theme on the prime, since it would break all continuity that is left in the lore.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

At the moment it is a lost cause since a certain someone always prefers to read what he wants instead of what is written, in the case of Revenant atleast. When it comes to other subjects that person is quite reasonable though.

The only thing I do hope for is that DE never pushes the "sentient" theme on the prime, since it would break all continuity that is left in the lore.

Primes as we receive them are inherently lore breaking. This was established with Valkyr.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, p_silveira said:

Not really.

Defense - Revenant's thralls don't count for defense wave count, if you kill the last non enthralled enemy on a defense wave and only have thralls left, the wave will count as "past" and the game will start a new wave as if there was no enemy there whatsoever. That's already in the game, it's not a suggestion from me.

Capture - Capture targets cannot be enthralled (among other things, Nyx mind control also doesn't work on them, and many other abilities also do not).

Exterminate - Easily solved by putting them on the same condition as other immortal enemies-turned-minions already in the game (like Nyx mind control, Nidus parasitic link, Garuda blood altar, etc): all the damage dealt to an enemy after he has been minion-ized is dealt to him as soon as the ability duration ends. That's insta death if they're the last enemies on the floor to be killed.

Doesn’t solve the issue of Enthrall not being remotely Eidolon themed.

[p_silveira]

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Doesn’t solve the issue of Enthrall not being remotely Eidolon themed.

Nor it should. My comment was a reply about another comment about a QoL for his current 1, not about your crusade for his "theme".

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Highly specific fantasy? You agree that he should be Eidolon themed. And I’ve explained to you in extremely fine detail how my rework idea is Eidolon themed.

You've written volumes of text dressing up your rework as something it's not, that's for sure, but at the end that hasn't made your rework any more Eidolon-themed than the Revenant we have now. As I distinctly recall, towards the end you were frequently citing "creative liberties" as an excuse, while trying to claim that you didn't have to make a real effort because whatever you produced would be better than the Revenant we have now (it wouldn't).

Quote

You just kept getting hung up on how it “needs tau Damage” (which is a horrible idea we know nothing about tau damage and it’s liable to be another void damage on Xaku incident),

I actually just suggested Tau damage on my own proposed kit outline, you're the one who threw a fit because you didn't know what it was, despite having had all the time in the world to research the Sentient damage type. To make it very clear, "we" absolutely know everything about Tau damage, you don't, because you didn't do the research, and are projecting your ignorance onto everyone else.

Quote

and how my 2nd ability idea is still vampire themed despite its influence being both an Eidolon ability for the visuals and the Eidolon lore of them putting themselves back together using their surroundings.

Ah yes, a draining effect that sucks the life from nearby enemies, which no Eidolon or even Sentient uses in-game, and which no part of the lore even remotely mentions. How not vampiric at all. /s

Quote

Which is why I stopped arguing with you. Because your arguments were getting hyper nit picky and overall illogical.

Or, rather, because you were getting so badly trounced, and had so many other people you'd picked arguments with, that you couldn't keep going. See, you always seem to have a reason to dismiss X or Y individual, which could perhaps be okay if it happened only from time to time, but which starts to look a little weird when you do so for every person you argue with, all while picking fights with unprecedentedly large amounts of people on the forums... at the same time. It really is a you problem.

Quote

I’m genuinely not doing this for attention. I literally just want Revenant to be reworked to be properly Eidolon themed. I didn’t choose for all these people to come in and be like “He’s fine as he is if you ignore all the glaring issues both mechanically and thematically”. I’m aggressive about this because I want Revenant to be fixed, and I neither want to wait years on end for it to happen, nor it be completely ignored because there’s such a loud minority defending him. I’ve even accepted the option of putting his abilities on a completely separate frame as with Sevagoth releasing I don’t have to care that Revenants abilities suck, because Sevagoth provides the abilities I would’ve wanted from a vampire frame too.

Let's not play the victim here, you picked those fights yourself, and went out of your way to antagonize the people you've been arguing with, including the entirety of Revenant's playerbase. You have devoted entire orders of magnitude more effort into arguing with people than actually discussing Revenant's design, and have managed to annoy even other people who would normally agree with your criticism of the frame. You do not get to call anyone else "a loud minority" when you are by far the loudest and most minoritarian voice here. At the end of the day, you can say whatever you want, nobody here believes you anymore, because your actions have spoken for you. This thread isn't about Revenant; it never was. It was always about you. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2021-02-04 at 7:33 PM, Teridax68 said:

You've written volumes of text dressing up your rework as something it's not, that's for sure, but at the end that hasn't made your rework any more Eidolon-themed than the Revenant we have now. As I distinctly recall, towards the end you were frequently citing "creative liberties" as an excuse, while trying to claim that you didn't have to make a real effort because whatever you produced would be better than the Revenant we have now (it wouldn't).

I actually just suggested Tau damage on my own proposed kit outline, you're the one who threw a fit because you didn't know what it was, despite having had all the time in the world to research the Sentient damage type. To make it very clear, "we" absolutely know everything about Tau damage, you don't, because you didn't do the research, and are projecting your ignorance onto everyone else.

Ah yes, a draining effect that sucks the life from nearby enemies, which no Eidolon or even Sentient uses in-game, and which no part of the lore even remotely mentions. How not vampiric at all. /s

Or, rather, because you were getting so badly trounced, and had so many other people you'd picked arguments with, that you couldn't keep going. See, you always seem to have a reason to dismiss X or Y individual, which could perhaps be okay if it happened only from time to time, but which starts to look a little weird when you do so for every person you argue with, all while picking fights with unprecedentedly large amounts of people on the forums... at the same time. It really is a you problem.

Let's not play the victim here, you picked those fights yourself, and went out of your way to antagonize the people you've been arguing with, including the entirety of Revenant's playerbase. You have devoted entire orders of magnitude more effort into arguing with people than actually discussing Revenant's design, and have managed to annoy even other people who would normally agree with your criticism of the frame. You do not get to call anyone else "a loud minority" when you are by far the loudest and most minoritarian voice here. At the end of the day, you can say whatever you want, nobody here believes you anymore, because your actions have spoken for you. This thread isn't about Revenant; it never was. It was always about you. 

Until you actually do your research and acknowledge that my rework is actually Eidolon themed I have no choice but to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

I know what Tau Damage is. The issue with suggesting it be put on Revenant is that WE LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT DOES. I can’t find any information in its strength or weaknesses or even its status proc. And you failed to provide said information the multiple times I requested it. So throwing something like that onto a frame is honestly worse than throwing Void Damage on a frame.

My 2nd ability drains ARMOR and SHIELDS and I believe is suggested health from infested that don’t have armor so the ability wouldn’t end up like Pillage in infested missions and be completely useless. But shields and armor are the main focus. You can even explain the health drain as Revenant ripping off chunks of flesh.

[Teridax68]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Until you actually do your research and acknowledge that my rework is actually Eidolon themed I have no choice but to take everything you say with a grain of salt.

It is precisely because I did my research that I know your rework isn't Eidolon-themed. As pointed out above and beforehand already, your kit has very little to do with Eidolons.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I know what Tau Damage is. The issue with suggesting it be put on Revenant is that WE LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT DOES. I can’t find any information in its strength or weaknesses or even its status proc.

If you actually knew what Tau damage was, you'd know exactly what it does. It in fact does not have any health type modifiers or status proc.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And you failed to provide said information the multiple times I requested it. 

So this is a lie:

On 2020-08-17 at 12:57 PM, Teridax68 said:

Are you not aware of the wiki?

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage#Unique_Damage

Had you done even the barest minimum of research, which would've taken you a grand total of ten seconds, you would've known exactly what Tau damage is and what it does. It's a unique damage type dealt exclusively by Sentient units, with no status proc.

Not only did I already give you the above information, I gave you a direct link to the section of the wiki where it is listed, and you still choose to remain ignorant. It's not even that you put more effort into arguing than doing research, you put zero effort into doing any research, even when it is spoon-fed to you.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So throwing something like that onto a frame is honestly worse than throwing Void Damage on a frame.

Because... ? Gentle reminder here that your ignorance is not a balancing factor.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My 2nd ability drains ARMOR and SHIELDS and I believe is suggested health from infested that don’t have armor so the ability wouldn’t end up like Pillage in infested missions and be completely useless. But shields and armor are the main focus. You can even explain the health drain as Revenant ripping off chunks of flesh.

So, as pointed already, it sucks the life from enemies, like any run-of-the-mill vampiric ability. You can "explain" whatever you wish in whichever manner you desire, your ability has exactly as much to do with Eidolons or Sentients as Revenant's current kit. At the end of the day, you're expecting people to humor you when absolutely no-one on this thread (and, arguably, this forum) has even the slightest desire to do so. Why should they, when you've made an enemy of everyone?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is precisely because I did my research that I know your rework isn't Eidolon-themed. As pointed out above and beforehand already, your kit has very little to do with Eidolons.

If you actually knew what Tau damage was, you'd know exactly what it does. It in fact does not have any health type modifiers or status proc.

So this is a lie:

Not only did I already give you the above information, I gave you a direct link to the section of the wiki where it is listed, and you still choose to remain ignorant. It's not even that you put more effort into arguing than doing research, you put zero effort into doing any research, even when it is spoon-fed to you.

Because... ? Gentle reminder here that your ignorance is not a balancing factor.

So, as pointed already, it sucks the life from enemies, like any run-of-the-mill vampiric ability. You can "explain" whatever you wish in whichever manner you desire, your ability has exactly as much to do with Eidolons or Sentients as Revenant's current kit. At the end of the day, you're expecting people to humor you when absolutely no-one on this thread (and, arguably, this forum) has even the slightest desire to do so. Why should they, when you've made an enemy of everyone?

Vomvalyst summoning, using the surroundings to build your defense, damage adaptation, giant energy waves, big gun. The only way my rework is getting any more Eidolon themed is if I literally suggested just copying Eidolons attacks exactly, but there’s several things they do that wouldn’t be effective in actually gameplay like the energy sapping ground or magnetic proc energy blast, so I changed and modified things while staying as close to the Eidolon/sentient theme.

Why would you suggest I replace adaptive damage, a damage type that has been doing very well on both Danse Macabre and Serene Storm, with a damage type that you know does absolutely nothing? That’s not practical.

All the wiki entry says is that it’s the Sentients damage type and that they deal it. And as you said the damage type has literally nothing going for it. So why use it over adaptive damage?

We know what void damage does! We can form an option around that. If Tau Damage has no damage benefits or status proc then it has no reason to ever be used by us. Honestly the fact that you’re calling me ignorant when you’re blatantly ignoring this fact is absurd.

So because I put one extra mechanic onto my ability to ensure it won’t be useless against 1 of the games factions you immediately dismiss the other 95% of the ability, focus on that one aspect and call it a vampire ability. Despite literally the rest of the ability not having any vampire influence and I took the idea directly from the Eidolons lore.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So because I put one extra mechanic onto my ability to ensure it won’t be useless against 1 of the games factions you immediately dismiss the other 95% of the ability, focus on that one aspect and call it a vampire ability. Despite literally the rest of the ability not having any vampire influence and I took the idea directly from the Eidolons lore.

It's not about dismissing the rest of the ability, it's about pointing out that your proposed ability is, at its core, vampiric in nature. You made a vampire ability. Arguably, the only thing remotely Eidolon-related in your kit is the Vomvalysts, the rest have no relation to things Eidolons or Sentients actually do, not without needing far-fetched "explanations" to even remotely start making sense. Your "build your defense" ability is just a reskinned vampire leech, your giant energy waves are nothing like the ones Eidolons use, and are about as generic as they come, and your big gun hilariously doesn't operate in any way like that of an Eidolon.

You also seem to have missed the point with Tau damage, in that the fact that it "does nothing" makes it perfectly-suited for a frame that deals adaptive damage. In your version, the adaptive damage is a permanent passive and partial damage conversion, which is just about the most boring way to implement it (might as well just give Revenant bonus damage), but in the kit I proposed, my adaptive damage would in fact be bonus damage: effectively, because Tau damage encounters no resistances, it can be balanced to deal equal damage to all factions (and thus equally high damage), and its lack of status effects would be irrelevant on abilities that have no innate status chance. The adaptive damage would be layered on top of that Tau damage, as well as the player's weapon damage, and thus be able to clearly distinguish itself. Worth noting as well the obvious thematic value in giving an Eidolon frame Sentient damage, as Eidolons do in fact deal Tau damage. For someone who self-professes wanting to make Revenant an Eidolon frame, you seem strangely opposed to actually giving him the gameplay and thematic elements of an Eidolon.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It's not about dismissing the rest of the ability, it's about pointing out that your proposed ability is, at its core, vampiric in nature. You made a vampire ability. Arguably, the only thing remotely Eidolon-related in your kit is the Vomvalysts, the rest have no relation to things Eidolons or Sentients actually do, not without needing far-fetched "explanations" to even remotely start making sense. Your "build your defense" ability is just a reskinned vampire leech, your giant energy waves are nothing like the ones Eidolons use, and are about as generic as they come, and your big gun hilariously doesn't operate in any way like that of an Eidolon.

You also seem to have missed the point with Tau damage, in that the fact that it "does nothing" makes it perfectly-suited for a frame that deals adaptive damage. In your version, the adaptive damage is a permanent passive and partial damage conversion, which is just about the most boring way to implement it (might as well just give Revenant bonus damage), but in the kit I proposed, my adaptive damage would in fact be bonus damage: effectively, because Tau damage encounters no resistances, it can be balanced to deal equal damage to all factions (and thus equally high damage), and its lack of status effects would be irrelevant on abilities that have no innate status chance. The adaptive damage would be layered on top of that Tau damage, as well as the player's weapon damage, and thus be able to clearly distinguish itself. Worth noting as well the obvious thematic value in giving an Eidolon frame Sentient damage, as Eidolons do in fact deal Tau damage. For someone who self-professes wanting to make Revenant an Eidolon frame, you seem strangely opposed to actually giving him the gameplay and thematic elements of an Eidolon.

By your logic Hildryn is also a vampire. I wanted an ability that represents the Eidolon taking things from their environment to put themselves back together. But I didn’t want to create some stupid looking ability where Revenant is gluing crates and lockers to himself, and I wanted an effective tank ability that also takes advantage of sentient Damage adaptation. So I took the idea of taking things to rebuild oneself to taking things to build your defense ability. Then the issue came to what to I take. I can’t just absorb the environment it has no intate stats that I could scale the ability off of. So I turned to enemy armor and shields as debuffing enemies is always a welcome feature. Then came the tanking portion of the ability. I gave it 90% DR because it’s been the consistently reliable DR percent. I then put in passive effect it has where the more you take damage from a certain damage type it fills up a bar that when maxed grants a 10s immunity to that damage type. That synergizes with my 4th ability idea as Revenant will concert incoming Damage into Damage for his big gun. It would also help Danse Macabre as Revenant would be able to take advantage of its scaling mechanic and the damage immunity would keep him safer at higher levels when trying to scale up Danse. Now the big problem with this ability is that while I can take armor from grineer and shields from corpus I can’t take anything from infested, which means Revenant would then be unable to tank in infested missions. I hate the idea of a frame not being effective against a certain faction, so I included that if an enemy has no armor or shields then Revenants 2 would drain a percent of their health and the ability’s defense would scale off that. Also, the ability synergizes with the Vomvalysts to heal Revenant. Which is what the Eidolons ability that inspires this ability does. Uses Vomvalysts to revive the fallen Eidolon.

His 3rd ability is literally the visual design of the Eidolons energy pulse when you break a synovia. But that energy pulse is a magnetic proc, which is only effective for fighting Corpus. So I changed that to the double enemy damage weaknesses because it’s a unique effect and it ties into the whole damage adaptation thing.

His 4 is the big gun arm the Eidolons have. But of course it would be ridiculous if you found an exact replica of it thats his size, so the idea of him calling forth broken fragments of the Eidolons to form a gun out of makes more sense. It also keeps the converting damage that Danse Macabre does, but doesn’t drain at an absurd rate.

Do you want adaptive damage or Tau Damage? Why make all these extra steps to apply adaptive damage when you can just have adaptive damage, and not have this unnecessary middle man damage that does literally nothing. Coding wise that’s just inefficient. Also, My rework for his 4th ability has 2 modes that proc status, my passive idea means that if Revenant is holding a status weapon it has a small chance to proc the adapted damages status effect because of how the game calculates what status effect to proc when a weapon has multiple damage types.

I’ve already stated that the idea is to mesh Eidolon abilities and attributes and sentient ability and attributes since they are under the same faction and Revenant is likely going to be the only time we get a frame this close to being sentient themed, so might as well take advantage of that fact to its fullest. Danse Macabre is also Revenants only Eidolon themed ability and it has adapting Damage, so I see no issue on capitalizing on that more.

[Teridax68]

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

By your logic Hildryn is also a vampire.

Hildryn doesn't steal health or heal, though, now does she?

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I wanted an ability that represents the Eidolon taking things from their environment to put themselves back together.

I think that's already where the problem begins, because Sentients don't really just pull stuff from the environment. Eidolons certainly incorporate some bits of the world into themselves, but that's over a process of centuries, and even regular Sentients tend to bring things into specialized places to process them. There are so many ways you could've done that kind of effect differently.

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 3rd ability is literally the visual design of the Eidolons energy pulse when you break a synovia. But that energy pulse is a magnetic proc, which is only effective for fighting Corpus. So I changed that to the double enemy damage weaknesses because it’s a unique effect and it ties into the whole damage adaptation thing.

So, effectively, you abstracted the ability to its most generic feature (a radial energy wave), and implemented something that has nothing to do with the original ability. By that same logic, Hildryn would also be an Eidolon frame, as Pillage is an energy wave, and so would be mag, especially because Polarize does in fact deal Magnetic damage.

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 4 is the big gun arm the Eidolons have. But of course it would be ridiculous if you found an exact replica of it thats his size

The problem is that the gun operates nothing like those of the Eidolons. You might've well just reskinned a Supra and called it a day.

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Do you want adaptive damage or Tau Damage? Why make all these extra steps to apply adaptive damage when you can just have adaptive damage, and not have this unnecessary middle man damage that does literally nothing. Coding wise that’s just inefficient.

Why not both? You certainly have adaptive damage and not-adaptive damage in your own kit, having a portion of neutral, i.e. Tau damage prevents the damage bonus from being too swingy, as it would already trigger health type multipliers. While it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, I would nonetheless find it interesting to know exactly how having a frame deal two damage types is "inefficient" in terms of coding.

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, My rework for his 4th ability has 2 modes that proc status, my passive idea means that if Revenant is holding a status weapon it has a small chance to proc the adapted damages status effect because of how the game calculates what status effect to proc when a weapon has multiple damage types.

So the Eidolon fantasy to you means applying lots of status effects, then, something neither Eidolons nor current Revenant are known for. Got it.

On 2021-02-06 at 5:36 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’ve already stated that the idea is to mesh Eidolon abilities and attributes and sentient ability and attributes since they are under the same faction and Revenant is likely going to be the only time we get a frame this close to being sentient themed, so might as well take advantage of that fact to its fullest. Danse Macabre is also Revenants only Eidolon themed ability and it has adapting Damage, so I see no issue on capitalizing on that more.

I could sympathize with this, if your abilities had any Sentient flavor to them. They don't. Your kit is thematically confused down to its core, and no amount of window dressing is going to change that. You would be better off drafting a new kit.

[ConsumerJTC]

On 2021-02-02 at 11:29 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Mesmer skin is not that good. 100% DR is redundant as all the other tank abilities that provide 90-95% DR can scale up to around level 400. Which is far beyond all playable content. So you’re ultimately just left with a skill with an annoying charges mechanic, an anti-synergy with Danse Macabre, and an ability that prevents the usage of mods like rage and arcanes like Grace.

This is quite the subjective view, considering the nature of Mesmer Skin you can just do away with health/shields and their regen values entirely and save multiple slots on your loadout that would have been used for armor and vitality.

Arcanes like Aegis and Grace would have been totally redundant in this case either way and danse macabre is a trap that is actually a helminth subsume slot, 

[SkyRox3112]

2 hours ago, ConsumerJTC said:

and danse macabre is a trap that is actually a helminth subsume slot, 

^ literally, probably his weakest abbility, except in lvl 30 missions and lower

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, ConsumerJTC said:

This is quite the subjective view, considering the nature of Mesmer Skin you can just do away with health/shields and their regen values entirely and save multiple slots on your loadout that would have been used for armor and vitality.

Arcanes like Aegis and Grace would have been totally redundant in this case either way and danse macabre is a trap that is actually a helminth subsume slot, 

Oh right because Revenants modding needs are so diverse. You literally just have to throw strength and efficiency on him and nothing else. So the idea of being able to forgo health mods doesn’t really benefit him as he has no need for Range or duration.

And what about the Rage mod? I’ve stated before that replacing Mesmer with Defy actually let’s Danse scale unrestricted, makes Revenant tanky, lets him regain energy with Rage, and Reave can heal him. Immediately Revenants kit has a flow to it and all it involved was replacing Mesmer with a traditional tank ability.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2021-02-07 at 12:03 PM, Teridax68 said:

Hildryn doesn't steal health or heal, though, now does she?

I think that's already where the problem begins, because Sentients don't really just pull stuff from the environment. Eidolons certainly incorporate some bits of the world into themselves, but that's over a process of centuries, and even regular Sentients tend to bring things into specialized places to process them. There are so many ways you could've done that kind of effect differently.

So, effectively, you abstracted the ability to its most generic feature (a radial energy wave), and implemented something that has nothing to do with the original ability. By that same logic, Hildryn would also be an Eidolon frame, as Pillage is an energy wave, and so would be mag, especially because Polarize does in fact deal Magnetic damage.

The problem is that the gun operates nothing like those of the Eidolons. You might've well just reskinned a Supra and called it a day.

Why not both? You certainly have adaptive damage and not-adaptive damage in your own kit, having a portion of neutral, i.e. Tau damage prevents the damage bonus from being too swingy, as it would already trigger health type multipliers. While it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, I would nonetheless find it interesting to know exactly how having a frame deal two damage types is "inefficient" in terms of coding.

So the Eidolon fantasy to you means applying lots of status effects, then, something neither Eidolons nor current Revenant are known for. Got it.

I could sympathize with this, if your abilities had any Sentient flavor to them. They don't. Your kit is thematically confused down to its core, and no amount of window dressing is going to change that. You would be better off drafting a new kit.

My 2 rework doesn’t use infested health to heal Revenant tho. It uses vomvalysts for that and that’s something Eidolons do. The health drain from unarmored, unshielded enemies is so the abI Lott can still function when facing infested.

Well I asked you for ideas as to how I could somehow make the environment scale so Revenant would use that instead of enemy armor/shields. But you chose to act like the question didn’t make sense.

Hildryn more Eidolon themed than Revenant. You heard it here first, folks. Also technically Pillage is an inverse energy pulse. Like yeah she sends it out, but it doesn’t do anything until it returns back to her (BTW the duration on that needs to go).

You realize you can’t just take exactly what Eidolons do, slap it on a frame, and expect it to be good, right? Like you actually have to be a little creative on the mechanics of them, otherwise you literally just have a frame with a damage type that does literally nothing, magnetic procs, and a giant bubble shield. The goal with my rework is to make playing Revenant feel like playing a scaled down Eidolon, but give the mechanics of his abilities more variety and base those mechanics off sentient abilities and attributes so we don’t end up with what Revenant is now. A frame whose theme was completely ignored in favor of a different, completely unrelated theme. I’m trying to take his theme, do the obvious, and also be a little innovative with it.

Also, Supra isn’t a beam, burst, or launcher style weapon.

I already said that having Tau Damage as a catalyst for adaptive damage instead of just having adaptive damage outright it just inefficient coding. Basically you’re coding in a damage type, only to then code in a second damage type to replace the first damage type. There’s no need for the first damage type. Also, as I recall the damage converted on weapon Revenant would wield would only be 10% so it’s not going to dramatically impact a weapons performance. But it’s going to do a lot more than what he current passive does.

I make 1 ability a big exalted arm cannon that has 3 firing modes 1 of which is status focused, one that has equal crit and status, and one that is crit focused. And you come to the conclusion that my entire rework revolves around proccing status? IDK how you people keep making these absurd leaps in logic. Eidolons are the big giant sentients that roam the Plains, slowly putting themselves together. They fire lasers and energy waves, and are followed around by Vomvalysts. I made a Revenant rework that involves laser, energy waves, Vomvalysts, and pulling in things around you to build up your defense ability. It also involves damage adaptation because that’s something the Sentients do, and Revenant as he is right now has Danse Macabre which  has an offensive version of Sentient damage adaptation, and it can also proc status.

My rework is Eidolon and sentient themed. The only thing here that’s confused is you. Because I truly have no idea how tf you got “Gears thinks Eidolons are about proccing status” from me wanting Revenant to have a big exalted arm cannon.

 

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My 2 rework doesn’t use infested health to heal Revenant tho. It uses vomvalysts for that and that’s something Eidolons do. The health drain from unarmored, unshielded enemies is so the abI Lott can still function when facing infested.

And it's still a vampiric effect that exists in your kit. The existence of a self-heal from Vomvalyst just makes the effect redundant in addition to a thematic mismatch. It's not really effective to claim at the same time that an effect does and doesn't exist in your kit, and doing so just comes across like you're trying to hide something that's plainly obvious.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well I asked you for ideas as to how I could somehow make the environment scale so Revenant would use that instead of enemy armor/shields. But you chose to act like the question didn’t make sense.

I said it was a terrible idea that would only make your ability even more needlessly convoluted. The question doesn't make sense because it wouldn't address the problems with your ability, and presumes that making Revenant scale with the environment a la Mirage would somehow contribute positively to him in any way. It wouldn't.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hildryn more Eidolon themed than Revenant. You heard it here first, folks. Also technically Pillage is an inverse energy pulse. Like yeah she sends it out, but it doesn’t do anything until it returns back to her (BTW the duration on that needs to go).

Yes, we heard it here... from you. The entire point to invoking something that ridiculous is because it is the logical consequence of your own argument: if the only thing an ability needs to be Eidolon-themed is to be a radial energy pulse, then any frame with a radial energy pulse, such as Hildryn or Mag (whose damage type also matches the OG Eidolon pulse) is as Eidolon theme as your concept. Given how absurd even you seem to realize that is, it's clear abilities need a little more than just the barest visual similarity to fit a certain theme.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You realize you can’t just take exactly what Eidolons do, slap it on a frame, and expect it to be good, right? Like you actually have to be a little creative on the mechanics of them, otherwise you literally just have a frame with a damage type that does literally nothing, magnetic procs, and a giant bubble shield. The goal with my rework is to make playing Revenant feel like playing a scaled down Eidolon, but give the mechanics of his abilities more variety and base those mechanics off sentient abilities and attributes so we don’t end up with what Revenant is now. A frame whose theme was completely ignored in favor of a different, completely unrelated theme. I’m trying to take his theme, do the obvious, and also be a little innovative with it.

You failed at your goal, then, given that your proposed Revenant kit looks virtually nothing like an Eidolon, much less the Revenant we have now, and your "creative" mechanics (which are almost entirely ripped off from other frames) have completely missed the point of what it even means to play like either. If you really are trying to take the Eidolon theme and innovate with it... try again. It would cost you only a fraction of the effort you've put into arguing here, and defending a kit that was dead in the water nineteen pages ago already.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, Supra isn’t a beam, burst, or launcher style weapon.

You're right, and yet it still bears more of a resemblance to the Teralyst's cannon than the filler weapon you added to the fourth ability slot. That doesn't say much good about your ability.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I already said that having Tau Damage as a catalyst for adaptive damage instead of just having adaptive damage outright it just inefficient coding. Basically you’re coding in a damage type, only to then code in a second damage type to replace the first damage type. There’s no need for the first damage type.

So first off, that's not what inefficient coding is, second, nothing is getting replaced when the second damage type is bonus damage, and not total damage conversion. As I suspected, your accusation here has zero basis, and completely misunderstands both the thing you are attacking and the concepts you are invoking.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, as I recall the damage converted on weapon Revenant would wield would only be 10% so it’s not going to dramatically impact a weapons performance. But it’s going to do a lot more than what he current passive does.

You do realize how awful 10% damage conversion is, right? Even in the case of an adaptive damage type that deals 75% bonus damage to the target you're hitting, that just amounts to a 7.5% damage increase. Not only would damage conversion be more "inefficient coding" by your own logic than bonus damage, due to outright replacing existing damage (not that it would be either, as that's not really a coding problem), your own effect is so underwhelmingly balanced it may as well not exist. 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I make 1 ability a big exalted arm cannon that has 3 firing modes 1 of which is status focused, one that has equal crit and status, and one that is crit focused. And you come to the conclusion that my entire rework revolves around proccing status? IDK how you people keep making these absurd leaps in logic.

Probably because you keep speaking nonsense and people call you out for it, to your own apparently never-ending surprise. In this particular case, you mentioned an intent to make Revenant somehow capitalize on the extra status effects he'd be proccing, which makes no real sense given that neither Revenant nor Eidolons are status-focused. Your frame isn't Eidolon-themed, it's one big kitchen sink of mechanics that you decided to chuck in willy-nilly, regardless of whether or not those mechanics fit the theme or original frame. It is thus no surprise that your rework concept is three pages long on a Word doc. What's probably the saddest part here, though, is that none of those three firing modes look anything like the Teralyst, Hydrolyst, or Gantulyst's own guns. You had one job there.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My rework is Eidolon and sentient themed. The only thing here that’s confused is you. Because I truly have no idea how tf you got “Gears thinks Eidolons are about proccing status” from me wanting Revenant to have a big exalted arm cannon.

I'm not quite sure how you expect me to believe you here when virtually everyone on this thread is telling you that your rework is neither, and pointed out numerous instances of you confusing yourself, getting the facts wrong, or just flat-out lying. You are the only one here defending a rework no-one likes, while declaring the most outrageous bull to an audience with whom you've destroyed every possible bit of trust and good faith.

With the above, I'm reminded of a joke: A man's driving down the highway, and turns on the radio. The radio news broadcaster announces "This just in, we have reports of a driver speeding down the wrong side of the highway;" the driver looks around him and says: "Only one? There's hundreds of them!"

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2021-02-08 at 8:07 PM, Teridax68 said:

And it's still a vampiric effect that exists in your kit. The existence of a self-heal from Vomvalyst just makes the effect redundant in addition to a thematic mismatch. It's not really effective to claim at the same time that an effect does and doesn't exist in your kit, and doing so just comes across like you're trying to hide something that's plainly obvious.

I said it was a terrible idea that would only make your ability even more needlessly convoluted. The question doesn't make sense because it wouldn't address the problems with your ability, and presumes that making Revenant scale with the environment a la Mirage would somehow contribute positively to him in any way. It wouldn't.

Yes, we heard it here... from you. The entire point to invoking something that ridiculous is because it is the logical consequence of your own argument: if the only thing an ability needs to be Eidolon-themed is to be a radial energy pulse, then any frame with a radial energy pulse, such as Hildryn or Mag (whose damage type also matches the OG Eidolon pulse) is as Eidolon theme as your concept. Given how absurd even you seem to realize that is, it's clear abilities need a little more than just the barest visual similarity to fit a certain theme.

You failed at your goal, then, given that your proposed Revenant kit looks virtually nothing like an Eidolon, much less the Revenant we have now, and your "creative" mechanics (which are almost entirely ripped off from other frames) have completely missed the point of what it even means to play like either. If you really are trying to take the Eidolon theme and innovate with it... try again. It would cost you only a fraction of the effort you've put into arguing here, and defending a kit that was dead in the water nineteen pages ago already.

You're right, and yet it still bears more of a resemblance to the Teralyst's cannon than the filler weapon you added to the fourth ability slot. That doesn't say much good about your ability.

So first off, that's not what inefficient coding is, second, nothing is getting replaced when the second damage type is bonus damage, and not total damage conversion. As I suspected, your accusation here has zero basis, and completely misunderstands both the thing you are attacking and the concepts you are invoking.

You do realize how awful 10% damage conversion is, right? Even in the case of an adaptive damage type that deals 75% bonus damage to the target you're hitting, that just amounts to a 7.5% damage increase. Not only would damage conversion be more "inefficient coding" by your own logic than bonus damage, due to outright replacing existing damage (not that it would be either, as that's not really a coding problem), your own effect is so underwhelmingly balanced it may as well not exist. 

Probably because you keep speaking nonsense and people call you out for it, to your own apparently never-ending surprise. In this particular case, you mentioned an intent to make Revenant somehow capitalize on the extra status effects he'd be proccing, which makes no real sense given that neither Revenant nor Eidolons are status-focused. Your frame isn't Eidolon-themed, it's one big kitchen sink of mechanics that you decided to chuck in willy-nilly, regardless of whether or not those mechanics fit the theme or original frame. It is thus no surprise that your rework concept is three pages long on a Word doc. What's probably the saddest part here, though, is that none of those three firing modes look anything like the Teralyst, Hydrolyst, or Gantulyst's own guns. You had one job there.

I'm not quite sure how you expect me to believe you here when virtually everyone on this thread is telling you that your rework is neither, and pointed out numerous instances of you confusing yourself, getting the facts wrong, or just flat-out lying. You are the only one here defending a rework no-one likes, while declaring the most outrageous bull to an audience with whom you've destroyed every possible bit of trust and good faith.

With the above, I'm reminded of a joke: A man's driving down the highway, and turns on the radio. The radio news broadcaster announces "This just in, we have reports of a driver speeding down the wrong side of the highway;" the driver looks around him and says: "Only one? There's hundreds of them!"

IDK what you’re even talking about anymore.

Like it genuinely feels like you’re picking whatever contradicting point against me regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Everyone who said my rework was bad were all the people who claim Revenant is good and all they did was bash my rework instead of give constructive criticism.

I don’t think even you know what you want from an Eidolon/Sentient themed frame.