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Reb on Shy's stream: Many abilities are going to be BUFFED and hints for deducing selected abilities


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Just now, Jarriaga said:

I don't think so. Otherwise Nezha would have given Blazing Chakram instead of Fire Walker. BC is significantly worse than FW on its own without the synergies, which are not part of the discussion. 

Nope... even without Divine Spears Blazing Chakram Still Debuffs Any Enemies it Touches making them more susceptible to damage... the ability to Teleport is just a fun bonus on top of that.

Fire Walker just makes you run faster.... Its fun but Hardly useful

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Nope... even without Divine Spears Blazing Chakram Still Debuffs Any Enemies it Touches making them more susceptible to damage... the ability to Teleport is just a fun bonus on top of that.

Fire Walker just makes you run faster.... Its fun but Hardly useful

I don't see how an enemy taking more damage is a better ability than being immune to status effects (Just picture this on Hildryn vs. toxin), but you do you. 

You also ignore that Blazing Chakram is a visual proxy to Warding Halo, which is Nezha's actual signature. Outside deluxe skins, you don't get signature items on different frames. You don't get Harrow's Thurible if you put his animations in a different frame. It's no different than Nezha's halo/chakram.

Edited by Jarriaga
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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

The chrysalis system is being overseen and designed by Pablo.

This is either gonna be a good thing or single handedly snap any attempts to balance Warframes into itty bitty pieces.

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4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This is either gonna be a good thing or single handedly snap any attempts to balance Warframes into itty bitty pieces.

Like everything with DE, I think it is going to be a mixed bag. 

On the one hand I think it is going to cause them to take a look at a lot of underused abilities, which will be a good thing. 

On the other hand, like rivens, they just opened up a whole new can of balancing worms, and that is going to make things harder in the long run. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see how an enemy taking more damage is a better ability than being immune to status effects (Just picture this on Hildryn vs. toxin), but you do you. 

It only works if you pass through the Flames... it doesnt work like Halo.... so basically unless you run around in circles to actually benefit from it... its Discount Mach Rush.

 

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You also ignore that Blazing Chakram is a visual proxy to Warding Halo, which is Nezha's actual signature.

I didnt ignore it....  i know they would never give us Either of those Abilities...

Doesn't mean we can't determine which would be better for Other Warframes.

 

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Regarding the balance concerns people have I honestly feel that them making the abilities better will lead to better balancing overall.

If a frame has a bad ability then replacing it with practically anything is a straight upgrade. But if that ability is made worth having in the first place then to replace it on said frame comes at a greater loss especially considering a number of bad abilities come with minor synergies with the rest of their kits. Ultimately making it a much bigger trade off and ideally making the frame come out with more or less the same level power they had before. Buffing the ability in the first place is technically powercreep in that the frame is strictly better but having all four abilities on a frame at least being viable should be the desired state for all frames.

Though of course there will be outliers but this is the expected outcome of min-maxing. Literally nothing they do besides massively gimping abilities on transfer (which defeats the entire point of the system) will prevent there from being some combination that that breaks the game. Which we can fully expect them to address somehow as well can we expect early adopters to throw a fit when their blatantly broken combo gets patched.

 

Also regardless of what people say about broken combos I'm putting all my money on most people going for Pull on all their frames just to use Greedy Pull as a 25m+ long vacuum.

Edited by trst
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2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

On the other hand, like rivens, they just opened up a whole new can of balancing worms, and that is going to make things harder in the long run. 

To be fair at least these abilities will be static in nature rather than percent based increases than can only make a strong weapon stronger and barely salvage a weaker weapon at best.

...I really don't like how useless Riven mods can often be for weaker weapons despite how that's what they are "supposed" to do.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

To be fair at least these abilities will be static in nature rather than percent based increases than can only make a strong weapon stronger and barely salvage a weaker weapon at best.

...I really don't like how useless Riven mods can often be for weaker weapons despite how that's what they are "supposed" to do.

Agreed. It's definitely not the best comparison I admit, as rivens are by far much bigger of a balance problem, in large part for reasons you stated. 

This system definitely allows them to have much more control over the process and removes the randomness (although I doubt Pablo can forsee all broken combos in advance). 

The tricky part for Pablo is now any time he reworks a frame he now has to also consider the interactions of one out of four of that frames abilities with like 42 frames and more on the way. In a way, it just seems like this makes his job of reworking and retouching frames over time harder, and more laborious. 

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7 minutes ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I really just want to know more about the Helminth abilities, the ones on display were pretty weak. I hope the top-tier helminth ones are something impressive and worth using.

If not, we'll trash 'em for it. Then perhaps they'll think about utilizing that portion of the system as passive/base stat tweaking.

Edited by MasterBurik
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Just now, MasterBurik said:

If not, we'll trash 'em for it. Then perhaps they'll think about utilizing that portion of the system as passive/base stat tweaking.

Honestly I could do without the whole subsuming thing, that doesn't really interest me but the idea of adding brand new custom abilities does.

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Just now, xcrimsonlegendx said:

Honestly I could do without the whole subsuming thing, that doesn't really interest me but the idea of adding brand new custom abilities does.

It would've been a bit easier to balance, to be sure.

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Why do I feel like Helminth Chrysalis is just another “railjack for the game awards.”

An idea that was being worked on, but was rushed out to meet the tennocon stream without the developers having any real idea how it might actually work or be implemented...

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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes, Mirage is actually one of the frames I'm currently building because just like Protea, Vauban, Equinox, and Wukong, any ability that she shares will be very valuable.

But I don't see how that logic breaks apart just because all of her abilities are DPS because not all of them are signature/iconic and not all of them are as broken to the same degree.

I think for Mirage, her ability will be Eclipse because:

- Hall of Mirrors is her signature/iconic, therefore excluded by default.

- Eclipse is a buff you can't rely on or control at will. The UI shows the max potential value but not the actual buff value as it is affected by light levels. Even at peak brightness in Simulacrum you don't get the same buff value as what the UI shows. Same goes for darkness defensive buff. Additionally, doing something as simple as taking a step forward can change the buff type. This is nowhere near as game-breaking as Sleight of Hand, thus more viable for sharing.

I have no idea what Wukong ability they are going to share.

Clone is just ripe for abuse

Cloud walk isnt powerful per se, but it is incredibly useful for any frame on any mission.

Defy is just asking to be abused. 

Staff will not be shared because they said no exalted weapons.

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1 minute ago, Kconvey said:

I have no idea what Wukong ability they are going to share.

Clone is just ripe for abuse

Cloud walk isnt powerful per se, but it is incredibly useful for any frame on any mission.

Defy is just asking to be abused. 

Staff will not be shared because they said no exalted weapons.

Defy I think would be the choice. Iron staff is ult, no to everyone getting a clone. Those are obvious. That leaves cloud walker and defy, and if you go off of wukong's mythology he rides a cloud, so i think that's the iconic criteria since the staff is the ult. 

So that leaves defy.

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2 minutes ago, Kconvey said:

I have no idea what Wukong ability they are going to share.

Clone is just ripe for abuse

Cloud walk isnt powerful per se, but it is incredibly useful for any frame on any mission.

Defy is just asking to be abused. 

Staff will not be shared because they said no exalted weapons.

Cloud Walker, probably.

And i'm fine with that, that's really good.

Defy uses the Iron Staff in the animation, so it's likely out of the question.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

What does that mean for Rhino though? Charge is his signature skill (he's rhino), stomp is his Ult, but both roar and iron skin are way too game breaking to put on anyone else. Personally if have shared his charge but that move is kinda the whole reason for his name...

This is what was been worrying me. However, take Saryn for instance, we thought Molt is a signature for Saryn yet they are giving every warframe the ability to "shed" their skin. I think this logic could apply to Rhino as well, even if it's named "Rhino Charge" that is 100% the ability we will get and if it is Roar I'm going to be absolutely furious.

This is a copy/paste from user Lumen2ne1 who I think words very well my thoughts on this system. Apologies if there's a way to link someone else comment from another post as I am not aware of it.

 

Many warframes revolve around a couple of strong abilities and mediocre ones but there are some that have fully useful kits, and whichever ability we can get from them will be extremely good on another frame with already 2 or 3 good abilities. Take Wisp for example because I use her a lot. She's already a good support frame, but I don't really like nor use her 3rd ability (her 2 not so much either), and any skill from Khora, Protea or Mirage will be too good on her, being a support and having even more strong support abilities or better CC and more damage.

I only see a couple of possible outcomes out of this balance hell system. They either decide to not implement it at all or nerf abilities that have numbers and percentages with a cap. If they nerf abilities, then the system is pointless because you're going to replace an already mediocre ability with one you won't potentially use anymore so you end up with the same. If they only give the relatively worst abilities of each frame up for transfer, warframes with already bad kits will not benefit from this, or everyone will transfer the same good and strong abilities available, creating a meta.

The way I see this system is it shouldn't be implemented at all, as curious I am, but it's for the best. This is rivens 2.0, balance nightmare that acts as a band-aid for warframes with mediocre abilities that need reworks and gets abused on strong warframes instead. People will invest on the strong combinations and will eventually get nerfed or adjusted like dispositions and people will complain for wasting their effort. On one hand I'm curious to see how it all plays out, but on the other hand I'm almost convinced that it won't turn out good and they should back out on this, even though they hyped it too much with TennoCon and probably will be harder to take it back.

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The only reason this system is being implemented is because Warframe is losing many players. DE wants to give some eyecandy for people to stick around longer and keep the sinking boat afloat. Though tencent won't be happy with the earnings of DE and would most likely shut the game down in 3 or so years.

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2 hours ago, Voltage said:

This whole system is a balance nightmare. DE is going to release their list, and there will be a few good combinations with the rest being basically useless. Sure, the game is already easy, but this doubles the size of your squad to 8 potential Warframes. This also really hurts the feeling of figuring out the right Warframe for the job. This cements existing roles, and creates an even larger gap.

Why even bother with using Shock Trooper on Volt when your buddy can give it to you as Chroma and you can take something else instead?

This whole system is bad and a mistake. I'm going to use it, I'm going to be overpowered, but this makes me question, why the hell does DE even touch Riven Dispositions or Limbo in Scarlet Spear if they have no problem with you stacking Chroma (base damage) to a multiplicative elemental damage mod on the same Warframe? It's absolutely nonsense.

Agreed 100%.

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43 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

However, take Saryn for instance, we thought Molt is a signature for Saryn

In some sense all abilities are "signature". The question is the degree. Is Molt more signature than Spores?

Different people will look at a frame and see different things. For example, some people may go by what they see as the frame's "theme", while others may go by what distinguishes a frame from other frames and makes it unique, and yet others may go by how the frame ends up being used in-mission.

If Saryn is all about melting the enemy with a deadly mixture of biological and chemical agents, then miasma and spores are thematic. On the other hand, they're just like half a dozen other aoe damage/debuff abilities, whereas Molt is a little more unique.

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the OP kinda hit it on the nail imo. ive been saying this system is more of a litmus test for buffing or nerfing abilities. case in point they are already giving many buffs for this system. this is a much more thorough way to test which abilities are more or less popular. because an ability may be good but the frame isnt popular or visa versa....

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