Reb on Shy's stream: Many abilities are going to be BUFFED and hints for deducing selected abilities

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Sure, accidents might happen but i doubt that is how it works for all frames. Of course, if zephyr is about controlling air currents or whatever, then none of the abilities should be chosen because they are all its signature abilities. So as i said, no logic, just rather frail excuses.

By your logic, frame abilities from the same frame don't compete. All of Ember's are signatures. All of Frost's are signatures. All of Volt's are signature.

That doesn't take into account iconic status or recognition. Few people would not think of Snow Globe as Frost's signature above his other ice abilities. Few people would not think of Immolation as Ember's signature above her other fire abilities. Signature can be argued to be the most representative out of all representative abilities.

But if you wish and desire to think there's no logic or reasoning involved then you do you. No one will make you change your mind even though there is already a community-developed table with possible choices. Such a table would not be possible without a thought process that indicates Y instead of X instead of random happy accidents.

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

By your logic, frame abilities from the same frame don't compete. All of Ember's are signatures. All of Frost's are signatures. All of Volt's are signature.

That doesn't take into account iconic status or recognition. Few people would not think of Snow Globe as Frost's signature above his other ice abilities. Few people would not think of Immolation as Ember's signature above her other fire abilities. Signature can be argued to be the most representative out of all representative abilities.

Or the skill that the frame is designed around. 

In the end DE doesn't have to stick to any metric. They can and will choose whatever power they want. I don't think people should get too hung up on what "signature ability" means. It doesn't need to be clearly defined for us.

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

4 hours ago, nslay said:

Gauss is, first and foremost, known as one of the greatest mathematicians in all of history. I'm sure his mathematical discoveries were useful for electricity and magnetism, but he is primarily known for mathematics! So no, I never once understood the relation between the theme and name of the frame Gauss... not even slightly.

Gauss's name is actually the name of a unit of electric induction in honour of his mathematical derivations that aided in that field. Because of this his name has relations to all kinds of magnetic transference and magnetic acceleration.

Due to its mechanical reliance on magnetic induction, coilguns are often referred to in sci-fi settings as Gauss rifles and bullet trains have been referred to in literature as Guassian Trains.

His name's relation to magnetic acceleration, the currently most consistent way to create and maintain high speed travel, is why his name is appropriate for a speed frame.

[Felsagger]

War Frames are supposed to live and die with their abilities. 

DE decided to let us modify and balance the War Frames? For what? Discover a new Meta and then end up in the pit of downgraded ideas?

War Frames in a mission are a crew. They are supposed to have abilities that defines them. What would it be if I give Orisa the power of Gengi. How about if I give Torbjorn the power of Tracer. Where the game stands for? Why I have War Frames in the first place? 

A War Frame is a decision the player makes for a certain mission. He needs to carry the limitation and benefits of his or her decision. 

[nslay]

18 minutes ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Gauss's name is actually the name of a unit of electric induction in honour of his mathematical derivations that aided in that field. Because of this his name has relations to all kinds of magnetic transference and magnetic acceleration.

Due to its mechanical reliance on magnetic induction, coilguns are often referred to in sci-fi settings as Gauss rifles and bullet trains have been referred to in literature as Guassian Trains.

His name's relation to magnetic acceleration, the currently most consistent way to create and maintain high speed travel, is why his name is appropriate for a speed frame.

His namesake for that unit is relatively obscure compared to his standing as one of history's greatest mathematicians. I mean, it doesn't even hold a light compared to namesakes like the Gaussian Distribution, Gaussian Elimination, Gaussian Quadrature. He's more widely known for these discoveries. I mean, everyone across all fields of science, mathematics, statistics, know about the Gaussian Distribution... And while I studied mathematics, I've never heard of the Gauss unit (not once).

Type "Gauss" into wikipedia and it will not take you to the page on the unit electric induction named after him. It will take you to the mathematician, the man!

I bet Leonhard Euler has some unit named after him. But I can tell you that he is not known for the name of a unit (Euler is the most prolific mathematician in all of history).

[ILOHARTA]

there is a 215% chance to break the game with this update

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Rhino uses rhino charge makes more sense. Roar is the kind of ability, like speed that doesn't really tie into the warframes theme in any way, the warframe just makes a sound that gives a buff. I doubt they use any logic when they choose the abilities, which makes one think why they even mentioned anything about "signature" abilities.

I think there is alot of logic behind it, it probably just comes down too weeding out the least iconic skill in a kit with only signatures. Surely some choices will be odd when they also need to consider balance and if a non-sig skill would be too OP over a sig. Mesa comes to mind where her #1 is more of a signature skill than her #3 since she is a gunslinger frame, but we will likely end up with her 1 eitherway. Kinda same deal with chroma, where the most iconic skills would be 1 and 4 due to the dragon theme.

Then we have frames like the elemental frames that only have signatures in their kit.

We also have the other angle, where signature simply has no meaning to the theme, where it simply comes down to "which skill do you think of when you hear X". Which would explain why Mesa will probably give us her #1, since it is the least iconic or signature skill because people think of her #3 or #4 at first.

[Klaeljanu]

13 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So you mean abilities might actually get looked at and be buffed? That can't be true, I was hoping to call it a "bandaid system" and an excuse for DE to NEVER to rework frames ever!

Oh well, I'm sure there's something negative I can find in all of this... Oh yeah "DE can't design a game without power creep!"

I mean, the guy above you says exactly that.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

War Frames are supposed to live and die with their abilities. 

The introduction of the broken frame kinda says no to that idea. Which makes this Helminth expansion very fitting in time.

edit: Orisa with a Genji skill would be hilarious! Depending on which on it is.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

War Frames are supposed to live and die with their abilities. 

DE decided to let us modify and balance the War Frames? For what? Discover a new Meta and then end up in the pit of downgraded ideas?

War Frames in a mission are a crew. They are supposed to have abilities that defines them. What would it be if I give Orisa the power of Gengi. How about if I give Torbjorn the power of Tracer. Where the game stands for? Why I have War Frames in the first place? 

A War Frame is a decision the player makes for a certain mission. He needs to carry the limitation and benefits of his or her decision. 

It's just one ability. 

Personally, I'll still try to maintain a theme with my changes, and not just chase the meta. 

I can't wait to make an electric eel Hydroid. 

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

War Frames are supposed to live and die with their abilities.

Where did you get this from...

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

DE decided to let us modify and balance the War Frames? For what? Discover a new Meta and then end up in the pit of downgraded ideas?

again, pit of downgraded ideas...what does that mean

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

War Frames in a mission are a crew. They are supposed to have abilities that defines them. What would it be if I give Orisa the power of Gengi. How about if I give Torbjorn the power of Tracer. Where the game stands for? Why I have War Frames in the first place? 

Different type of coop game play. Warframe is an one man army, the "role" of each warframe is very loose. It's not like " I hold down the enemy while you shoot" more like"I get the 500 on the left, you get 500 on the right" type of coop. Also I don't understand the second half of this paragraph. We only get to donate 1 out of 4 and replace 1 out of 4 of our abilities, and it's the weakest ability at that. There's still difference between each warframes. And what's with the last 2 questions, they have nothing to this new mechanic.  

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

A War Frame is a decision the player makes for a certain mission. He needs to carry the limitation and benefits of his or her decision. 

They still do tho, I mean after replace one ability...

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

His namesake for that unit is relatively obscure compared to his standing as one of history's greatest mathematicians. I mean, it doesn't even hold a light compared to namesakes like the Gaussian Distribution, Gaussian Elimination, Gaussian Quadrature. He's more widely known for these discoveries. I mean, everyone across all fields of science, mathematics, statistics, know about the Gaussian Distribution... And while I studied mathematics, I've never heard of the Gauss unit (not once).

Type "Gauss" into wikipedia and it will not take you to the page on the unit electric induction named after him. It will take you to the mathematician, the man!

I bet Leonhard Euler has some unit named after him. But I can tell you that he is not known for the name of a unit (Euler is the most prolific mathematician in all of history).

You're talking about knowledge by people in his technical field not knowledge in the world. The average lay person doesn't know about his mathematical prowess, they know his name from the real world examples of things they encounter.

The coilgun or "Gauss Rifle" is an ingrained part of pop culture and is fairly widely known, even if people don't know what it actually is outside "it shoots bullets really really fast! And kills stuff really really fast!"

Another key implication where people would know of his name is in the form of Gaussian Blur, which is another specific implementation defined on the use of one of his functions and has associations with motion blur.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Gauss's name is actually the name of a unit of electric induction in honour of his mathematical derivations that aided in that field. Because of this his name has relations to all kinds of magnetic transference and magnetic acceleration.

Due to its mechanical reliance on magnetic induction, coilguns are often referred to in sci-fi settings as Gauss rifles and bullet trains have been referred to in literature as Guassian Trains.

His name's relation to magnetic acceleration, the currently most consistent way to create and maintain high speed travel, is why his name is appropriate for a speed frame.

Thanks i was trying to put this into words but couldn't figure it out. Sadly, I didnt even know Gauss was a famous Mathematician, I was immediately thinking of what you just said. 

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I can't wait to make an electric eel Hydroid.

...That's actually kind of clever not gonna lie.

[nslay]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

You're talking about knowledge by people in his technical field not knowledge in the world. The average lay person doesn't know about his mathematical prowess, they know his name from the real world examples of things they encounter.

The coilgun or "Gauss Rifle" is an ingrained part of pop culture and is fairly widely known, even if people don't know what it actually is outside "it shoots bullets really really fast! And kills stuff really really fast!"

Another key implication where people would know of his name is in the form of Gaussian Blur, which is another specific implementation defined on the use of one of his functions and has associations with motion blur.

Gaussian Blur is related to the Gaussian Distribution's pdf. Gaussian Distribution is probably the most widely known tool used by almost everyone in the world. Anyone who takes basic statistics will know what it is. Anyone who does high school and college algebra will probably have heard of Gaussian Elimination (even if they forgot it).

I have never worked with electricity and I have never heard of the Gauss unit for electrical induction. But almost everyone will have heard about Gaussian Distribution (Blur, Kernel, etc...) or Gaussian Elimination. And none of these have anything to do with speed (though Gaussian Quadrature is very computationally efficient!).

[(XBOX)pwnSacrifice]

While I think most "ultimates" are off the table, I honestly can think of a couple of cases where it would be appropriate. I think Octavia is probably the best example. Mallet is just ridiculous, we know we're not getting that. Resonator is also extremely strong, even without amp or mallet (I would concede that this ability could be a viable choice, though a very very strong ability to choose). Opera I would argue is signature, on top of being problematic from implementation and balance perspective. That leads us to Amp, the least obnoxious of her abilities. It's a limited (although still large) area of increased damage that changes with the amount of noise going on. I think, without the rest of her kit going off, so only gunfire and screams ect giving a moderate but controlled damage buff would be an appropriate tool to give. It also doesn't require any "fudging" that would need to occur for any of her other abilities (other frames lacking a mandachord and all). 

Just my two cents on the rampant speculation going on. 

[Colyeses]

16 hours ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

What does that mean for Rhino though? Charge is his signature skill (he's rhino), stomp is his Ult, but both roar and iron skin are way too game breaking to put on anyone else. Personally if have shared his charge but that move is kinda the whole reason for his name...

Although still not really sure how Volt's Shock isn't his signiture skill >.>

'Signature' doesn't refer to the audiovisual theme, like Shock is to Volt's audiovisual theme of electricity, but rather to the core of the gameplay design. What is, essentially, the first thing that comes to mind when you think of that frame? Volt is hardly known for Shock, but he IS known for Speed and his shield.

Similarly, Rhino isn't known for Charge, even though he's basically called a rhinoceros. Rhino is far more famous for his Iron Skin allowing him to brave huge amounts of punishment. So Iron skin is his signature, and Charge will likely be what gets transferred.

That said, this isn't 100% spot-on, because it's been leaked that Wukong could be passing on Celestial Twin, which I would say is his signature ability.

[vFlitz]

14 hours ago, kgabor said:

Cloud Walker, probably.

And i'm fine with that, that's really good.

Defy uses the Iron Staff in the animation, so it's likely out of the question.

Cloud Walker also uses the Staff in the casting animation. Briefly, but still.

I think it'll still be the clone. Defy would be the default pick for any frame looking for more survivability, because we're unlikely to get anything better than 1500 armor from Helminth. Cloudwalker is the best spy ability and one of the best mobility abilities, on top of providing healing, status cleanse and invulnerability.

Don't get me wrong, the clone is also very nice.. but it doesn't do anything special. And without the synergies from Cloudwalker and Defy, on squishy frames it'll be just as squishy, same goes for frames that rely on self buffs to survive, rendering it a less universally desirable choice. And while it's as related to Wukong's lore as the other abilities are, in the world of Warframe creating a copy of yourself isn't that much of a distinguishing trait. Equinox has it as an augment, and any frame can use specters.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

16 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 2) Turbulence is so good that, if shared, it will effectively kill Zephyr by virtue of having little else going on exclusively in her favor.

And that, my friends, is why Zephyr needs a rework.

Same reason for Chroma. Same for Inaros. And a few others. And then we have poor Nyx, who just doesn't work at all with the current state of the game and how it's evolved.

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

That said, this isn't 100% spot-on, because it's been leaked that Wukong could be passing on Celestial Twin, which I would say is his signature ability.

Actually, DE Bear practically killed off that "leak":

On 2020-08-03 at 2:35 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Hey folks.

You should bear in mind that screenshots of this system pre-launch are very likely dev-build experiments and are not always indicative of a final choice. We’ll be making a Dev Workshop post (around the 13th or 14th of August) about the final approved powers list before we release on the 25th, however.
 

So it's down to Cloud Walker and Defy.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, vFlitz said:

 

I think it'll still be the clone. Defy would be the default pick for any frame looking for more survivability, because we're unlikely to get anything better than 1500 armor from Helminth.

I doubt it.... Armor is only good up to 600.... you get Significantly diminished Returns going above that number....

Trust me.... I tested this with Umbral Valkyr Prime....  for a whopping 2000 Armor at all Times.... Still Died like she was Made out of Paper.

5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

 

Don't get me wrong, the clone is also very nice.. but it doesn't do anything special. 

What ? 😮 !!!

its literally a Free Spectre that uses mods.... How is that not Special ? 😮 !!!

7 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Equinox has it as an augment, and any frame can use specters.

Unfortunately those Specters can utilize mods... so far Standard Content Celestial Twin outperforms them easily.

7 minutes ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

And that, my friends, is why Zephyr needs a rework.

Same reason for Chroma. Same for Inaros. And a few others. And then we have poor Nyx, who just doesn't work at all with the current state of the game and how it's evolved.

Don't forget Octavia... she needs a rework simply for being Boring....

 

[Hiruma-Kai]

3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

War Frames are supposed to live and die with their abilities. 

DE decided to let us modify and balance the War Frames? For what? Discover a new Meta and then end up in the pit of downgraded ideas?

War Frames in a mission are a crew. They are supposed to have abilities that defines them. What would it be if I give Orisa the power of Gengi. How about if I give Torbjorn the power of Tracer. Where the game stands for? Why I have War Frames in the first place? 

A War Frame is a decision the player makes for a certain mission. He needs to carry the limitation and benefits of his or her decision. 

Why are warframes supposed to live and die with their abilities?  Is this something DE has stated somewhere?  Is this a personal opinion?  Is it simply what other games have done before?  Why would Warframe have to do what other games do?  Isn't it supposed to be different?  I mean, if its your opinion, that is fine, but then I personally don't really see anything fundamentally wrong with the addition of ability transferring.  I mean, sure implementation is going to determine how well it works out, but the concept is perfectly fine.

When you pick the ability, it is not like you can change it mid-mission.  Its the same with your weapons, your pet, your focus trees, your gear wheel.  It is just one more option.  There's nothing sacrosanct about warframes ability sets.  Implementation might be good or bad, but simply being able to swap out something for another thing is literally what the entire game is based on.

Augments already change the behavior of some abilities.  Shock Trooper literally changes shock from a DPS attack to an allied damage buff, which are 2 completely different functions.  Arcanes can produce huge changes in effectiveness in both offense and defense.  And that is not even just getting into the actual modding of a warframe's base stats like ability power and range.  Low range, long duration high power Rhino (Iron Skin + Roar) plays difference from large range, low power, high efficiency (stomp AoE control).  Focus trees are literally 50 different abilities which for most people are only going to be using a small subset they have to pick.  And I'd argue those focus abilities can have a far greater effect on mission success than many warframe abilities.  Vazarin Protective dash with some patience can literally make you permanently invulnerable (along with being repetitive, but it's there if you need it).  Zenurik can provide infinite energy.  And so on.

I would argue replacing a warframe's ability is fundamentally no different from picking a different focus tree to combine with the warframe at mission launch.  Different set of magical abilities on the same base chassis.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

I doubt it.... Armor is only good up to 600.... you get Significantly diminished Returns going above that number....

Trust me.... I tested this with Umbral Valkyr Prime....  for a whopping 2000 Armor at all Times.... Still Died like she was Made out of Paper.

What ? 😮 !!!

its literally a Free Spectre that uses mods.... How is that not Special ? 😮 !!!

Unfortunately those Specters can utilize mods... so far Standard Content Celestial Twin outperforms them easily.

Don't forget Octavia... she needs a rework simply for being Boring....

 

Wukong's 2 would've been much better, but it would break the game. Defy definitely isn't as good as some think, and his 4 is the worst exalted weapon in the game, and probably the worst melee in the game. An entire ability is worse than all melee. So sad.

[vFlitz]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Actually, DE Bear practically killed off that "leak":

So it's down to Cloud Walker and Defy.

That quote doesn't confirm that it won't be Celestial Twin. Only that something seen in a devbuild shouldn't be taken as guaranteed. Which is really just the diplomatic answer you'd always expect in this kind of situation.

[Jarriaga]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

And that, my friends, is why Zephyr needs a rework.

Same reason for Chroma. Same for Inaros. And a few others. And then we have poor Nyx, who just doesn't work at all with the current state of the game and how it's evolved.

Well, if we go by what Reb said you can at least expect for some of the shared abilities to be buffed or reworked. But Nyx is a different story. In a different interview with Shy, Reb said that they are thematically limited with regards to what Nyx can do because her abilities are not meant to deal direct damage, so she's limited to CC. They could make her tankier and give her support/healing abilities, but she will sill not do much beyond that unless they sacrifice her theme.