Opinion: Parkour is the main reason Conclave is awful.

[Zahnny]

One of Warframe's biggest strengths is also its greatest weakness for PvP, and that's the parkour system. For as bad as Solar Rails PvP was (and trust me, it was awful. Ash spamming his original Bladestorm before the reworks effecting players as well as mobs) it had the more basic and tactical movement system and while sliding was a good evasion tactic it wasn't overpowered.

Conclave feels like trying to shoot at a fly with a sniper rifle. To make Conclave enjoyable our movement system needs to be gone from that mode. Not nerfed as it currently is. Feeling slower. It needs to be ripped out from the roots.

I think PvP will always be bad until DE realise that we need to have all players on a level playing field. Which means not having every weapon in the game but altered slightly. A curated selection of weapons need to be given matching a Class type, such as Close Quarters, Assault, Sniper, Support, Defense, Heavy, that sort of thing. If abilities are needed, they should be curated around PvP but also introduced into PvE as Helminth powers. Something like old Excal's Super Jump would be good for players wanting mobility without relying on pure parkour.

TL;DR, Conclave using more Tactical movement like Parkour 1.0 would genuinely make it more fun.

Playing as Grineer or Corpus units or heck even the new Necramechs. Something that has its own system of movement that doesn't allow a player to cross from one side of the map to the other without touching the ground inbetween.

[Loza03]

By 'tactical mobility', do you mean no Bullet Jump? Or no wall running, no sliding, etc.? Because I have it on good authority that fast PvP can very much work. Namely, Titanfall.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I love PvP, I did it competitively on a few games for years.

Warframe has enough fulfillment in the PVE area honestly. 

I hate to admit it, but PvP isn't really gonna work in this game: there are waaaaay too many factors in play: 

Lack of players.

Too many frames to balance around. (Passives like Nidus')

The movement system is too much. I almost broke my friggin wrist trying to hit a guy. Its parkour/slash/parkour/slash.

Just like in any game: your only way to level up is to simply let veterans beat you up for basically a year until you get enough points to get better gear, mods etc.

And the fact that casual players never liked PvP.

PvP is far from casual. Its competitive by nature. You need to have that "fire inside" you to be ok with taking a whooping and coming back for more.

I actually will play warframe for hours, then go to another game to PvP.

[Zahnny]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

By 'tactical mobility', do you mean no Bullet Jump? Or no wall running, no sliding, etc.? Because I have it on good authority that fast PvP can very much work. Namely, Titanfall.

Primarily bullet jumping, double jumping and wall jumping I'm aware of Titanfall's mobility but I think both games do it differently, for example, most Titanfall maps I've seen are external (because of the whole titan part) and focus around a central base with objects that can be climbed around it. Not to mention, in Warframe there is no limit on how long you can stay off the ground. Just hopping on a wall once resets both double and bullet jump. The wall running of Parkour 1.0 running vertically or horizontally can work.

Of course this isn't me saying the old system should be removed, if somehow you enjoy that. Then fair enough.

Edit: I should probably mentioned I'm only aware of Titanfall superficially, I don't know the greater complex details that may go unnoticed.

[Tesseract7777]

You are largely correct, but at this point, I think to get more people into Conclave, you would have to basically create something new. 

The problem? Conclave has become an island of old vets who have used it for a long time and not much else. 

Those who are interested enough to try to get far in Conclave tend to find that there is pretty much no one to play with except for the skilled people who have been playing since forever. Even if you make it more attractive to people, that problem remains at least for quite a time. 

If you try to change it to make it more attractive to fresh  blood, many of the vets who have been doing it for a long time are going to be upset at it being changed for new people. And it requires just little enough dev time they can keep it for the hardcores who still like it. So the devs are going to find a lot of resistance to any change. Remember how upset some conclavers were about universal medallions and Steve changing it back? Imagine a backlash far worse if they change conclave in any serious way. 

IMO, the answer is a new form of pvp that would be easier to balance, as has been suggested in the past. 

Operator PvP. Instead of balancing around 42 frames and counting, it's balanced around 5 schools. Instead of being a mobility nightmare from the start, operators already have more reasonable mobility for PvP. 

Just my two cents. 

Edit: I have noticed that while there are very few that are super into Warframe PvP, those who have gotten far in it and still do it on a regular or semi-regular basis are really passionate about it. If anyone suggests removing conclave to save dev time, their passion quickly becomes very apparent. 

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Primarily bullet jumping, double jumping and wall jumping I'm aware of Titanfall's mobility but I think both games do it differently, for example, most Titanfall maps I've seen are external (because of the whole titan part) and focus around a central base with objects that can be climbed around it. Not to mention, in Warframe there is no limit on how long you can stay off the ground. Just hopping on a wall once resets both double and bullet jump. The wall running of Parkour 1.0 running vertically or horizontally can work.

Of course this isn't me saying the old system should be removed, if somehow you enjoy that. Then fair enough.

Edit: I should probably mentioned I'm only aware of Titanfall superficially, I don't know the greater complex details that may go unnoticed.

I would probably agree about being rid of Bullet Jumping, namely because it allows dramatic movement shifts in mid-air, and makes running away far too effective. Since you can't shoot whilst combining bullet jumps, meaning that someone running away doesn't really need to worry about the person chasing them since in order to keep up, the pursuer needs to give up their ability to deal damage.

Now, as for how fast you can be in Titanfall?

Spoiler

 

Pretty bloody fast. Though granted, this is pretty god-level gameplay.

 

The main difference, map-wise, is that Conclave maps are much more open for the most part, and much smaller. There was one that had something kind of like Titanfall, but it was on the OG Corpus tileset design, so I'm not sure if it exists anymore (it was called freight line). Consider the maps that are also used for PvE - namely, the Rathuum arenas, the Sedna interception map and the Ice Planet Index map.

 

At this point, I'm not really sure Warframe's PvP is savable in any practical sense. Arguably, since Warframe's mobility is such a huge part of it, that'd probably have to be a part of PvP to remain faithful (Grineer vs Corpus being the only real alternative), but both options would probably take a great deal of work to make them truly fair.

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

I disagree the main problem with concave is the warframe abilities are not balanced well. Some warframe are going to clearly out play other warframe because some abilities are just to op for other warframes. Pvp/ concave needs a level playing field and to be balanced in order to be playable. Get rid of warframe abilities in concave and then the playing field will be more level.

[trst]

I completely disagree. Without Warframe's movement system conclave is the same as any other bland shooter and using the original parkour system would eliminate any point in using it due to how "on-rails" that system was.

To remove or gimp the movement beyond belief would ruin what makes it unique. At that point it would be better to make an entirely different PvP type.

[OniDax]

IMO, Bullet Jump+Aim Glide make it awful, along with an overall poor movement system (one built on bullet jump+aim glide and wall hopping). If movement in Warframe actually worked the way it does in Titanfall, it would be an asset, not a hindrance, but with how the system currently works (especially with the inertia of aim gliding), I think it works against Warframe in PvE and PvP, but especially PvP. The movement system doesn't need to be gimped, but it does need to be changed. Movement animations need to be improved, and aim gliding should be removed in place of slightly less gravity when jumping.

Secondary to that, WF abilities just aren't designed for PvP. I agree with the suggestion to completely get rid of abilities in Conclave, replacing them with special killstreaks (that could be based on certain Warframe abilities). Other tools like various types of grenades would be useful in PvP to make up for the lack of abilities.

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, Zahnny said:

One of Warframe's biggest strengths is also its greatest weakness for PvP, and that's the parkour system. For as bad as Solar Rails PvP was (and trust me, it was awful. Ash spamming his original Bladestorm before the reworks effecting players as well as mobs) it had the more basic and tactical movement system and while sliding was a good evasion tactic it wasn't overpowered.

Conclave feels like trying to shoot at a fly with a sniper rifle. To make Conclave enjoyable our movement system needs to be gone from that mode. Not nerfed as it currently is. Feeling slower. It needs to be ripped out from the roots.

You don't need to be good at parkour to perform well in Conclave, if you have really good aim. Here's a guy who does:

Spoiler

 

The main problem with parkour is that it raises the skill ceiling, and there's barely anything in the game that separates new from experienced people. There's Recruit Conditioning, but while I think it helps in some ways, it also has a few pretty severe flaws.

Then, when you're new to it and get your ass handed to you by someone with a lot of experience, you're likely going to blame it on the parkour system, or the mods, or the balance in general.

There are countless threads in the Conclave Feedback section that are testament to that. And for the record, we've asked for better matchmaking pretty much since 2015, and Recruit Conditioning got introduced in early 2016 -- and that's all there ever was.

 

2 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I think PvP will always be bad until DE realise that we need to have all players on a level playing field. ...

I definitely agree with that, but not the proposed solution.

 

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

... If you try to change it to make it more attractive to fresh  blood, many of the vets who have been doing it for a long time are going to be upset at it being changed for new people. And it requires just little enough dev time they can keep it for the hardcores who still like it. So the devs are going to find a lot of resistance to any change. Remember how upset some conclavers were about universal medallions and Steve changing it back? Imagine a backlash far worse if they change conclave in any serious way. ...

That's simply not true. There have also been proposals to e.g. address some of the flaws of Recruit Conditioning, and they go years back and unaddressed. The devs don't listen to our feedback, either. Or only barely enough that every few months an issue or two gets addressed, and I mean issues/bugs that get introduced from PvE changes which bleed over into it.

And on the other hand, we have a bandwagon full of people like you who jump on every opportunity to hate on that part of the game (for one reason or another), even if you have zero to barely any experience in it. The UM controversy was a "fine example" of that. How many of you have seen the other twitter post and the Reddit thread of the guy who was made the scapegoat? How come no one talks about those? It was a witch hunt, nothing else.

In related matters, do you know the difference and similarities between the UM and potatoes, with regards to the Conclave? You should've been around for long enough that you might know what I mean.

 

I could also show you guys a few videos of new people going against each other, and you'd see how the parkour problem solves itself, simply because without training, most people aren't able to deal with the mobility, in that they have to slow themselves down to be able to hit others. And there's no way to win a game if you can't hit your opponent in the first place.

[Hypernaut1]

I agree. It's why I don't like it

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I love PvP, I did it competitively on a few games for years.

Warframe has enough fulfillment in the PVE area honestly. 

I hate to admit it, but PvP isn't really gonna work in this game:

And the fact that casual players never liked PvP.

PvP is far from casual. Its competitive by nature. You need to have that "fire inside" you to be ok with taking a whooping and coming back for more.

I actually will play warframe for hours, then go to another game to PvP.

All this big time. Warframe came out in an age when every publisher was pushing hard on cramming PvP into their games. Spec Ops: The Line. Bioshock 2. Dead Space 2. Everyone was getting sick of it.

We migrated to Warframe because we felt like we were getting a complete gameplay experience without it

[Annnoth]

The reason pvp never worked is because warframe has built up as a very casual PvE game. In some cases people actually leaving PvP games to come to warframe. It eventually got a movement system with a massive amount of potential, but we never needed to even scratch the surface of any of it.

Releasing a game mode thats the polar opposite of everything warframe has been, and have had such a horrible lauch and history of balance, should leave leave little room to make people wonder why its dead. 

However, I dont think much should be done about the parkour. Because what does warframe even offer at that point? Without the movement its a mediocre shooter at best. Guns dont feel great on their own, its when combined with slaughtering lots of enemies that it starts to feel good, abilities dont exactly wow me because they are clearly pve abilities trying to work in a PvP mode so they feel really poorly thought out in that context. 

[Wolfdoggie]

It's also what makes it far more unique than any other games' pvp.

[OniDax]

8 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

It's also what makes it far more unique than any other games' pvp.

Warframe's PvP is unique in a bad way, evidenced by how few players play it. Being unique isn't always good, clearly.

[Lutesque]

Doesn't this work for 

Titan Fall, Call Of Duty Space Ninja Edition and Apex Legends ? 😮

 

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Well, you're wrong. The main reason conclave is awful is because it runs on p2p connection. 

Isn’t that basically all of warframes servers?

[akrid45]

yep bullet jumping is the main reason it sucks. thought people already knew this  

[0_The_F00l]

Parkour is one of the things,

The weapons are another,

The modding is another,

 

Te whole concept of using war frames for PVP is bound to fail ,

If it was limited to operators it cold work some way.

[Murox]

No, the P2P nature of the game is the main reason. PVP ain't fun when most of your matches end up being broken by host migrations.

Not to mention the lag when Sasha from Vladivostok ends up as host.

[Ahniar]

Try playing GunZ The Duel. 

[Ph4nt0m_ru]

The endurance system (strip) must be in the Conclave to avoid spam parkour.

[ixidron92]

You're right, it's why Conclave sucks, but don't tell that to the 3 people taking conclave seriously because it hurts their feelings. I already made this very same topic months ago. Best way to fix conclave quickly? Remove all movement capabilities except maybe the double jump. 

I mean, we finally have a test server and they have a way to disable movement abilities and just have you walk, run and jump. It'd probably take 5 seconds to implement and a couple of weeks to test it and see if it works. 

[Marvelous_A]

Yes. The parkour speed in Titanfall is nowhere near Warframe level. And Titanfall is made with PVP in mind. 

[Kontrollo]

20 hours ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

Isn’t that basically all of warframes servers?

16 hours ago, Murox said:

No, the P2P nature of the game is the main reason. PVP ain't fun when most of your matches end up being broken by host migrations.

Not to mention the lag when Sasha from Vladivostok ends up as host.

At least for PC, Conclave has had dedicated servers since 2016.

 

14 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

You're right, it's why Conclave sucks, but don't tell that to the 3 people taking conclave seriously because it hurts their feelings. ...

More like a sigh, a "here we go again" and a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But since you also managed to include the "x conclave people" joke, such a well-worn witticism, let's reward that at least. Because if not for discussion, that's what we're here for after all, right? 😉

 

22 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

It's also what makes it far more unique than any other games' pvp.

This. Remove the movement mechanics and then what?

Then we're left with something where you can really ask yourself why not just play a dedicated PvP game instead -- or at least something where the devs put in enough effort to prevent it from getting worse over time.