Health Gating. Yay or nay?

[Yunjuwo]

Shield Gating is currently dominating the meta in regards to general survivability. While this is due to the broken scaling of enemies, that's an issue that we can all pretty much agree on never getting fixed(imagine trying to balance enemies' damage to make it simultaneously fair and challenging for both a 600 EHP Loki and a Rhino sitting on a 100k Iron Skin). Instead, let's tackle the current problem of "shield gating or death". Yes, slap on brief respite/augur mods along with a decaying key on practically any warframe and it's a recipe for success; however, against high level enemies--which are now starting to appear in upcoming content, even outside endless gamemodes--it's the only recipe that exists. This meta diminishes player choice in regards to mods like Steel Fiber, Vitality, and Rage, and even some warframe abilities that assist in buffing survivability.

While I've got months-worth of different ideas on how Health Gating could be implemented, because of the existance of the many cults in Warframe(the conclave cult, the invisibility cult, the rolling guard cult, the viral/heat cult, the octavia cult, the tridolon cult, the riven cult/mafia, the revenant cult, the rubico prime cult, etc.), there's no doubt that the shield gating cult would immediately shoot down the idea of [something that can only benefit everyone] because [of the fear that their favorite toy is going to be usurped]. As such, I've been skeptical about asking even the first question:

Should players be given Health Gating?

I'm not asking for suggestions on the details how this would work. I'm simply asking if this should even be a thing in the first place.

Personally, I'm all for it because equal importance on shields and health would finally bring some diversity to our builds. I'll say it again. DIVERSITY is the reason I'm saying yes. And from that, there's even the argument for the current shield gating system to be buffed. You'd think that the emergence of shield gating would introduce mods like Redirection or Fast Deflection into more builds, but we actually got LESS shields because apparently, abusing the invulnerability is the only way to go. I'm not saying nerf decaying key builds, I'm saying "should we reward Redirection builds?" Not to mention there are other default values that virtually every warframe has access to like armor, Quick Thinking, and overshields. How should those be updated to keep them relevant? And even though I literally just asked "how should they work", the only thing I'm really asking in this thread is simply...

Yay or nay?

[Sevek7]

Sure, why not. It's not going to make the game harder, and it's basically impossible to make it any easier than it already is. 

[Rawbeard]

what is health gating?

[MasterBurik]

17 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

however, against high level enemies--which are now starting to appear in upcoming content, even outside endless gamemodes--

What do you consider to be "high level enemies"?

[Loza03]

You know what I would much rather do?

Fix  the disparity between the 600 EHP Loki and the 100K EHP Rhino. This doesn't even need to be done by nerfing. If anything this is probably one of the area where global buffs genuinely would be the best solution - or at least, the most prominent step towards one.

 

I believe that certain elements of a Warframe's base stats - namely, those pertaining to survivability - should not primarily be modded for. Modding should, at most, be a slight tweak up or down. Instead, health, shields and armour automatically receive upgrades on certain other milestones. Story progress being one that springs to mind, but other means could also work.

This would mean that instead of a 600 Loki vs 100K Rhino, it's something more akin to a 50K Loki vs 100K  Rhino. Rhino is still substantially tankier, especially given that Iron Skin exists on top of that, but the difference is not so extreme. This allows DE to actually have some idea of how durable players coming into certain content are actually going to be, and be able to design enemies and tune scaling around that.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

"should we reward Redirection builds?"

25% damage reduction and only a 1 second recharge delay (if not broken) is a big buff. And if you don't have armor arcanes or a massive amount of healing, this makes shields worth building for.

But health and armor is still the meta. And survivability abilities are still great, like even in the Steel Path Shatter Shield does just fine. At the point where you "need" shield gating, you're facing level 500+ enemies. And then who cares about the balance because there is no reason to face such enemies, so let those people that enjoy it... enjoy it.

And if you're suggesting a health gate like the Borderlands franchise, I'd say nay. Unlike shield gating where I have to specifically build for it, health is just too easy to gain in this game. And Warframes tend to be much more tanky then Borderlands characters, especially considering the lack of cooldowns. Not to mention I don't think we need 2 invulnerability gates.

 

And I know it was just an EHP example, but the difference is Loki is immune to aggro, and might as well be immune to damage with shield gating. While Rhino has that EHP because he's supposed to be constantly losing it, as the poster boy tank. Not to mention the active play and gear needed to get 100k consistantly.

And streamlining EHP in this game will do nothing because frames are so diverse in how they stay alive. To exemplify that...

• Inaros base ehp - 3,850
  • w/ Sacrab Swarm - 5,500
• Baruuk base ehp - 756
  • w/ his 3, 4, and half his passive - ~16,805

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

it's basically impossible to make it any easier than it already is. 

DE could enable a /killall command through the chat.

...But then I'd bet people would just demand the mission starts at the success screen.

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

Should players be given Health Gating?

Shield gating was a mistake already. It's yet another band-aid for an underlying problem, and it's stupidly easy to abuse for permanent invulnerability.

Why would you even need whatever "health gating" is if you can be permanently invulnerable with the right setup?

Shield gating should be rescinded and the underlying issue addressed instead.

Therefore: no.

[Robolaser]

Why would anyone want such a thing? We just recently got enemy armor nerf, self damage removal, shield gating etc. This game has become ridiculously easy, how do people find that more entertaining? Not judging, i genuinely don't get it. When i joined, self-revives where limited to 4. Per day. You wanted more, you spent platinum. That, imo, was thrilling (ok especially for stingy people like me). Just like arcade games of old, without the cigarette smell. It was also heartwarming to see random strangers rushing to revive you no matter the odds, risking their own precious tokens in the process.

I didn't join WF to play a low effort, low intensity, low gratification idle clicker game. Which sadly it seems to be turning into.

[keikogi]

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You know what I would much rather do?

Fix  the disparity between the 600 EHP Loki and the 100K EHP Rhino. This doesn't even need to be done by nerfing. If anything this is probably one of the area where global buffs genuinely would be the best solution - or at least, the most prominent step towards one.

 

I believe that certain elements of a Warframe's base stats - namely, those pertaining to survivability - should not primarily be modded for. Modding should, at most, be a slight tweak up or down. Instead, health, shields and armour automatically receive upgrades on certain other milestones. Story progress being one that springs to mind, but other means could also work.

This would mean that instead of a 600 Loki vs 100K Rhino, it's something more akin to a 50K Loki vs 100K  Rhino. Rhino is still substantially tankier, especially given that Iron Skin exists on top of that, but the difference is not so extreme. This allows DE to actually have some idea of how durable players coming into certain content are actually going to be, and be able to design enemies and tune scaling around that.

I feel like the blunt of player damage and durability should be related to store progress or a universal leveling system. The way it is right now the gap of damage and durability is just to wide to even try to balance.

[selig_fay]

I've been suggesting this for a long time, just like in borderlands. If you have more than 50% HP and get a lethal hit, you become unkillable within 1 second, meaning your HP can't go lower than 2 HP, but you still continue to take damage. Yes, this can start abusing builds with low HP and protection, but high healing, but this is 1 second and there is a chance that you can fail, because you can take damage very quickly and at the time of lethal damage you may not have 50% HP.

Also, it would be fun if we had a second wind mechanic where we could reborn from killing enemies, but our bleeding timer will be lowered next time if we fall before 5 minutes have passed. But this may already be too strong.

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Shield gating should be rescinded and the underlying issue addressed instead.

I think the main problem has been fixed. Now the shields are useful. Regenerating shields and volume protects the weak amount of damage (Lol, 300 shields and 90% DR is enough for the shields to be active and protect without a shield gate from most enemies.). Shield gate protects against heavy damage, but requires the player to wait or react (I would say this is harder to abuse than a big EHP and a big melee healing.). This is not the same as EHP, it requires you to play a different game where you get a minimum of damage. And I think that's the only reason why people still oppose the new shields - they don't understand how it works.

[Klokwerkaos]

Health gating already exists on Nidus and to a lesser extent Inaros.

Nidus has a fully functional health gate but you'd only use it when going endless arbitration, otherwise it's not worth building stacks.

Inaros has so much health that any time you are facing enemies that can actually remove it his passive will never res him because it does butt all to them.

Should we instead take these super tank frames and transpose the one thing that makes them worth using onto other frames?

Absolutely not.  No.  Never.  10000% against this.

[Yunjuwo]

I'd say health gating would only be beneficial for everyone.

Those seeking high intensity gameplay while being opposed to braindead, spam 4 strats?
This would only help with implementing diversity into your warframe selection and warframe builds. Imagine your 72 hour survivals as Inaros of all choices.

Would this take away the "tank" roles from "tank" frames?
No. Because for one, even against enemies that boast the highest dps in the game like lv180 Sapping Ospreys, Corrupted Nullifiers, or Exo Eviscerators--the latter of which you'll actually never face at such an absurd level because they're railjack exclusive--our health-focused "tank" frames at current(e.g. Grendel, Chroma, Inaros, etc.) still eat up their damage like breakfast with no issues even with a halfway decent build. On the other hand, take frames that aren't tanks and don't have any shield applications in their kit(e.g. Vauban, Banshee, etc.). Normally everyone automatically goes for the Decaying Dragon Key/Augur set/Brief Respite gimmick, which means there's no build diversity here either. Health gating gives squishier frames another toy to play around with, opening up a lot of fun theorycrafting hours for hardcore players, while also allowing health tanks to scale alongside shield tanks, instead of Decaying/Augur/Brief Respite builds being the "end all, be all" solution to every build.

How would health gating even work?
Again, I'm doubtful about my own propositions, but I don't believe it should just be a copy past of the mechanics of shield gating. Mainly for the fact that like I've been saying this whole time, the point of adding health gating is to give the player more, different choices, instead of just more of the same. Another reason is that if it does work just like shield gating, then it would honestly be even more ridiculous than shield gating since there are so many more ways to restore health in Warframe versus restoring shields. That all being said, I think a more balanced way to implement health gating would be through a cooldown. Have the health gate operate like our shield gate, where we only restore our gate upon a full heal; HOWEVER, instead of being allowed to just slap on Amalgam Daikyu Target Acquired and calling it a day, have it so that we must protect ourselves in our own unique ways(whether be it spamming Landslide, using Rolling Guard, taking cover, or anything else) until the cooldown is also restored. This is a second gate below our already-existing gate that is also protected by Armor--it should have a, if not harder, longer restoration session than simply Helmith'ing Pillage.

What would be the indicator for the above mentioned?
Instead of some small timer next to our health bars that constantly demands our eyes to look at the top-right of our screens, a better, more streamlined way to visually(and audibly) indicate the health gate duration and cooldown would be to extend something already in the game: the UI. As it is now, whenever our health dips low, a blinking red border lights up all around our screen, followed by a beeping sound. I would have it so that now we have the blinking red border and beeping sound during the duration of the health gate. When the health gate goes into cooldown, remove the beeping sound, but keep the blinking red border until the cooldown refreshes(to reiterate, we would also need to fully replenish our health alongside the cooldown to restore the gate).

[Xikto]

Remember when shield gating became a thing? for any frame that could replenish shields it was a miracle changing their status from mediocre to god tier tanks in the right hands.

Doing just that changed quite a lot about the game, by doing what u suggest i think we would change the game survivability system a bit too much, and it would alienate too much of what we already have, and quite frankly speaking we don't really need such a thing!

Changing the select few frames that still have major survivaiblity issues is a far better option than changing the core systems at this point in the game.

[TnaneverRisen]

On 2020-08-07 at 8:23 PM, Loza03 said:

You know what I would much rather do?

Fix  the disparity between the 600 EHP Loki and the 100K EHP Rhino. This doesn't even need to be done by nerfing. If anything this is probably one of the area where global buffs genuinely would be the best solution - or at least, the most prominent step towards one.

 

I believe that certain elements of a Warframe's base stats - namely, those pertaining to survivability - should not primarily be modded for. Modding should, at most, be a slight tweak up or down. Instead, health, shields and armour automatically receive upgrades on certain other milestones. Story progress being one that springs to mind, but other means could also work.

This would mean that instead of a 600 Loki vs 100K Rhino, it's something more akin to a 50K Loki vs 100K  Rhino. Rhino is still substantially tankier, especially given that Iron Skin exists on top of that, but the difference is not so extreme. This allows DE to actually have some idea of how durable players coming into certain content are actually going to be, and be able to design enemies and tune scaling around that.

I pretty much agree.  There needs to be a very heavy stat normalization.

You know which game does a great job at this?  Destiny 2.  Whether or not you like playing that game, it's clear that there are significant playstyle differences between the classes and intraclass builds. 

I'll give an example from weapons, and one for player classes:

-A level 1 rapid fire sniper rifle will generally still instakill the same enemies as a level 50 (or power level 1300) rapid fire sniper rifle, but the higher level sniper rifles may have more or different perks that give bonuses in different areas, such as better accuracy, faster reloading, faster ADS/holster speeds, damage bonus from kills, etc.

-A warlock could cast a healing rift that's good in a variety of situations, and a hunter could use the dodge skill which is typically not as useful as healing rift, but can be used more often and is usually considered stronger overall in PvP, and much of PvE given certain equipment setups.

For warframe mods, for example, they could give 20% max energy instead of 150%.  Maybe 10% sprint speed instead of 30%, etc.  All warframes should be generally be equally powerful, including rebalancing useless skills and skill combinations (which is what you can somewhat do with the Helminth system, but that should be more for flavor and fun than a requirement for balancing).  While they should be equally powerful, they should also feel significantly different in gameplay.  Small differences can easily add up to large style differences.

For weapons, the same idea.  Serration shouldn't be a mandatory mod - maybe a 20% boost at max level.  Someone should be able to make instead, for example, a weapon focused on puncture, handling, and reload.  Straight damage increases should be a strategic choice instead of an obvious requirement.  The 60/60 mods could be 10/10 instead, or completely different altogether.  Of course, all the weapon base stats/functionality should be rebalanced appropriately as well if that was implemented. 

[Joezone619]

no, game is already WAAYYY to easy

[quxier]

On 2020-08-08 at 7:09 AM, Kontrollo said:

Shield gating was a mistake already. It's yet another band-aid for an underlying problem, and it's stupidly easy to abuse for permanent invulnerability.

It's one of many thing that can be abused.

On 2020-08-08 at 7:30 AM, Robolaser said:

This game has become ridiculously easy, how do people find that more entertaining? Not judging, i genuinely don't get it. When i joined, self-revives where limited to 4. Per day. You wanted more, you spent platinum. That, imo, was thrilling (ok especially for stingy people like me). Just like arcade games of old, without the cigarette smell. It was also heartwarming to see random strangers rushing to revive you no matter the odds, risking their own precious tokens in the process.

And I don't like artificial difficulty. Or I don't like mods/weapons defines your "strength" in not so small amount. 

On 2021-01-08 at 12:37 AM, Yunjuwo said:

Normally everyone automatically goes for the Decaying Dragon Key/Augur set/Brief Respite gimmick, which means there's no build diversity here either.

You can go without Dragon Key but with something like the Adaptation and/or the Rolling guard. However those builds ("soft shield gating) depends more on frame/weapon than "hard shield gating".

On 2021-01-08 at 12:37 AM, Yunjuwo said:

That all being said, I think a more balanced way to implement health gating would be through a cooldown. Have the health gate operate like our shield gate, where we only restore our gate upon a full heal; HOWEVER, instead of being allowed to just slap on Amalgam Daikyu Target Acquired and calling it a day, have it so that we must protect ourselves in our own unique ways(whether be it spamming Landslide, using Rolling Guard, taking cover, or anything else) until the cooldown is also restored. This is a second gate below our already-existing gate that is also protected by Armor--it should have a, if not harder, longer restoration session than simply Helmith'ing Pillage.

So, let's say, every 10 second I might get 1 second immortality if I restore my full health AFTER cooldown have been restored?

That's just more convoluted & less reliable shield gating.

1 hour ago, TnaneverRisen said:

For warframe mods, for example, they could give 20% max energy instead of 150%.  Maybe 10% sprint speed instead of 30%, etc.  All warframes should be generally be equally powerful, including rebalancing useless skills and skill combinations (which is what you can somewhat do with the Helminth system, but that should be more for flavor and fun than a requirement for balancing).  While they should be equally powerful, they should also feel significantly different in gameplay.  Small differences can easily add up to large style differences.

For weapons, the same idea.  Serration shouldn't be a mandatory mod - maybe a 20% boost at max level.  Someone should be able to make instead, for example, a weapon focused on puncture, handling, and reload.  Straight damage increases should be a strategic choice instead of an obvious requirement.  The 60/60 mods could be 10/10 instead, or completely different altogether.  Of course, all the weapon base stats/functionality should be rebalanced appropriately as well if that was implemented. 

Imagine wasting mod for 10% or 7.5% speed boost... Pack few mods for a frame, amalgam mods and maybe something else to see NO VISIBLE DIFFERENCE.

No. Thank you. That's silly.

 

As for topic:

 I would like to see something that prevents me from instantly dying. Or being killed when being knocked-down (Protea will die if you die using her 4th... but in a long, cruel way).

 

What about X% of health being "more healthy" = more armor (or other things). For example if your health is =<5% you will get 200+% armor. This would prevent insta-kills but it would still be deadly for you if you don't restore your health and don't move.

X could vary/change. For example at the start it with 5% (and it couldn't go above 5%). If your health goes to 5% and you regenerate only 25% health (you have 30% health) then X might be current-health/20, so 1.5%.

 

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Imagine wasting mod for 10% or 7.5% speed boost... Pack few mods for a frame, amalgam mods and maybe something else to see NO VISIBLE DIFFERENCE.

No. Thank you. That's silly.

Imagine not having the imagination to understand how small bonuses add up to significant gameplay differences.  How silly would that be?

As I've said, a game like Destiny 2 already does this very well.  Even if you're not capable of imagining it, you can simply observe it in that game.  It already exists, and it's great.

[quxier]

18 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Imagine not having the imagination to understand how small bonuses add up to significant gameplay differences.  How silly would that be?

Sadly you have limited space (slots for mods, arcanes etc) AND not enough bonuses. You wanted to make bonuses even smaller. Bonuses may add to "significant gameplay differences" HOWEVER you need 2 or 3 more slots (for mods, arcanes etc).

[TnaneverRisen]

49 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sadly you have limited space (slots for mods, arcanes etc) AND not enough bonuses. You wanted to make bonuses even smaller. Bonuses may add to "significant gameplay differences" HOWEVER you need 2 or 3 more slots (for mods, arcanes etc).

Have you tried Destiny 2?  We could reduce the mod slots to half and it'll still be enough.  The main gameplay differences should be from different weapon archetypes (like slow, medium, and fast pistols, etc.) and warframe skills anyway.  Mods would just add to it.

[(PSN)willitical]

i was thinking about this yesterday, but my suggestion would be only for frames that only have health like inaros, which in that case i would think he could only take say 25% damage then after 3 seconds he is open to fatal shots, that's my opinion 

[Yunjuwo]

6 hours ago, Xikto said:

it would alienate too much of what we already have, and quite frankly speaking we don't really need such a thing!

Changing the select few frames that still have major survivaiblity issues is a far better option than changing the core systems at this point in the game.

I disagree. As it is now we only have shield gating which a focus on a few warframes like Hildryn and Mag, and that's okay because shields are their theme, right? However most of the cast have to utilize the Decaying Key/Augur gimmick if they want access to this reliable safety net and while that is a testament to player ingenuity, it's just "more of the same flavor"(and also it weakens the builds of a lot of them that need the mod space for augments, minmaxing, etc.). Giving a health gate opens up new opportunities for technically every frame, it doesn't take away anything, and if it works under my cooldown proposition it would be balanced alongside shield gating instead of overtaking shield gating.

As for those few frames that need survivability reworked into their kits, yeah I agree. It's been overdue where they deserve both health gating and also something unique to them.

5 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

All warframes should be generally be equally powerful, including rebalancing useless skills and skill combinations (which is what you can somewhat do with the Helminth system, but that should be more for flavor and fun than a requirement for balancing).  While they should be equally powerful, they should also feel significantly different in gameplay.  Small differences can easily add up to large style differences.

For weapons, the same idea.  Serration shouldn't be a mandatory mod - maybe a 20% boost at max level.  Someone should be able to make instead, for example, a weapon focused on puncture, handling, and reload.  Straight damage increases should be a strategic choice instead of an obvious requirement.

While I do agree that so many warframes need help, I think a better road to tackle first would be a Damage rework. We just had one yes, but that rework needs to be reworked lol. And if all damage types were equally useful, imagine the Boltor right now but 10x better because even though it has no Slash, Impact and Puncture can actually kill. We take those changes into warframe abilities, and suddenly Sound Quake is actually sortie+ viable.

For weapons, mods like Serration or Point Strike aren't actually mandatory. Take Kuva Nukor. It's mostly used as a status spreader. People have stronger gripes when their favorite warframe is weak rather than a single weapon among hundreds of others. So nerfing something like Serration would require a massive numbers overhaul of everything in the entire game, and I would rather not put such an unnecessary chore on the development team when it wouldn't even be fully utilized on most weapons.

5 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

no, game is already WAAYYY to easy

If it's that easy then you probably won't even notice the addition. Health gating just serves to help open up fun and interesting build diversity, and lessen moments where the player has ~30k health ehp but gets instantly killed by one drone sneezing on them.

3 hours ago, quxier said:

So, let's say, every 10 second I might get 1 second immortality if I restore my full health AFTER cooldown have been restored?

That's just more convoluted & less reliable shield gating.

Imagine wasting mod for 10% or 7.5% speed boost... Pack few mods for a frame, amalgam mods and maybe something else to see NO VISIBLE DIFFERENCE.

What about X% of health being "more healthy" = more armor (or other things). For example if your health is =<5% you will get 200+% armor. This would prevent insta-kills but it would still be deadly for you if you don't restore your health and don't move.

I never gave any specific numbers. That would be up to DE(and hopefully player feedback). I disagree on it being convoluted and less reliable because 1) health is backed by Armor 2) there's more/better ways to heal health versus shields 3) the cooldown serves to make it balanced in comparison to shield gating since barring the shield gating itself, health has a lot of advantages over shields(just not the one that matters, being the gate.

Amalgam mods are strong. Assuming the average player already equipped Firestorm, Amalgam Furax Body Count alone increases the explosion range by approximately 34.8%. That is not nothing. That is definitely something. And that's only accounting for surface area, not total volume. And if you want to make the argument that fists are a bad weapon group, you can get a lot of work done in this game with a Skana, and also stance mods exist.

For X% health = "more healthy", I'd have to say it's not enough. The solution would have to be health gating because even now there's content like Steel Path Deimos where you don't even have to stay in the mission for hours and hours for enemy levels to climb, but you'll still get one-shot. A health gate would stay relevant across all content at current and anything DE throws at us in the future.

1 hour ago, (PSN)willsp282012 said:

i was thinking about this yesterday, but my suggestion would be only for frames that only have health like inaros, which in that case i would think he could only take say 25% damage then after 3 seconds he is open to fatal shots, that's my opinion 

While I won't deny that Inaros was my primary reason for brainstorming health gating, I'd say that every warframe getting health gating would still be fair. Take Nidus, no shields as well but he gets away with it because of his insane passive. Inaros--I would've liked to put this in an Inaros rework titled forum post or video, but I guess I can just summarize it here:

-- Change his Scarab Storm where instead of increased armor, sacrificing his health builds a second layer of health like Iron Skin(and this pool could scale with Strength and Armor or whatever have you).
------The second layer of health could cap at X% of your max health, boosted by Strength("boosted", meaning a min Strength build won't weaken the cap)
--When this second layer of health depletes, Inaros gains a buff where his health can't fall below an amount.
------This would work like Dread Ward where he can still take damage(so Hunter Adrenaline/Rage can do its thing) instead of making him invulnerable.
------This would not work exactly like Dread Ward; he would drop to a low amount of health instead of 2hp, so that this buff activates before your health gate.
--The buff Duration could scale with how much health was sacrificed on the initial cast(initial cast meaning when you don't have any second layer of health).
------e.g. If you sacrifice 10k health, you could have the buff for 10s.
------You shouldn't be allowed to extend the buff Duration after the initial cast, otherwise it could be abused into infinity. Restricting the buff Duration to the initial cast also promotes strategic gameplay, where there is room for rewarding.

Also, all these would just be simple changes(which was a focus of mine). Just some changes to some numbers and coding. It's less work to pile onto for the design team so DE could implement this fairly easily. And while this isn't a straight up improvement, these are technically changes(which will no doubt be a bad impression on some diehard fans of this ability), we can't just pretend that functionality-wise, it would just be a way stronger and better scaling ability this way, right?

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I agree that "tank frames" become less relevant in endless missions, and rather fast in Mot in steel path, rolling guard, operator vous mode, shield gating are more valuable than 1500 armor and/or 2kho.

Quick thinking could be reworked to still work at higher level

Sword / shield melee could provide be reworked to make efficient tank / aggro builds (actually it's useless because AoE still hit you).

Some ennemy damage scaling could be also tuned down (infested is all fun and game until you get instakilled with AoE spam)

Some healing frame could have better instant revive functionality (not subsumeable obviously)

But this could make the game a bit easier. so maybe some sort of nerf could be make, but when you read the feedback after khora line of sight requisite for her whip I don't think that "nerf" would be welcomed.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Have you tried Destiny 2?  We could reduce the mod slots to half and it'll still be enough.  The main gameplay differences should be from different weapon archetypes (like slow, medium, and fast pistols, etc.) and warframe skills anyway.  Mods would just add to it.

No, I haven't played Destiny (any). For one build with my Xaku I want:
- high status (chance & duration) weapon: so few dual stat mods (damage + status chance), another 90% status chance and status duration mod

- roll speed (no change in roll distance): amalgam barrel diffusion

- some efficiency - 30% efficiency

- strength 200% for full armor strip of the Gaze - 2x Umbral mods and Transient fortitude (-2 rank)

- speed - at least the Rush, maybe an Aura & amalgam mod

 

Without things like:

- weapon/frame buffs

- status mods merge (e.g. into corrosive as one mod)

- major enemy change

I don't see it could work.

7 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

I never gave any specific numbers.

Me too, I have said "let's say" which should tell anyone that's just an example(s).

7 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

I disagree on it being convoluted and less reliable because 1) health is backed by Armor 2) there's more/better ways to heal health versus shields 3) the cooldown serves to make it balanced in comparison to shield gating since barring the shield gating itself, health has a lot of advantages over shields(just not the one that matters, being the gate.

1) Armor makes just more HP - it doesn't change how complex & reliable something is.

2) I disagree. I don't think there is huge difference. However it doesn't matter... read above

3) Game is not balanced. One time you can relax and another time you will just keep on moving, using whatever necessary to survive. And it's all within the same (or similar) level of enemies. Making me wait X makes "your health gating" just random Y second of immortality every once in while.

7 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

Amalgam Furax Body Count alone increases the explosion range by approximately 34.8%. That is not nothing. That is definitely something. And that's only accounting for surface area, not total volume. And if you want to make the argument that fists are a bad weapon group, you can get a lot of work done in this game with a Skana, and also stance mods exist.

I would say that it's 40% but maybe my assumptions were wrong (diameter = 2x radius, hence 2x 20% = 40%). Sure, this is something but you are forgetting that this mod is (or at least was, I heard it doesn't knockdown enemies anymore) on itself. I used it just for my Furrax.

However what he/she meant is that mods would be less potent. For example AFBC would increase radius by only 7-10%. That's 14-20% increase in range.

I was speaking speed. Rush gives you 30%, Armored agility 15%, the aura another 15% and the amalgam mods 25% speed (I read it's calculated after your frame mods, but I might be wrong). So 4 frame mods should give me 60%. Add 25% of the Amalgam mod. It's nice updated however after the Rush other mods doesn't increase speed too much. Now what he/she said is to decrease mods values. So 60% becomes 20% speed boost. And I can tell you that's nothing - I barely see any difference in Xaku's "natural" speed boost. And don't forget that's 4 slots. It's a lot. And if s/he want to make even less slot then I couldn't even fit one speed mod...

7 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

For X% health = "more healthy", I'd have to say it's not enough. The solution would have to be health gating because even now there's content like Steel Path Deimos where you don't even have to stay in the mission for hours and hours for enemy levels to climb, but you'll still get one-shot. A health gate would stay relevant across all content at current and anything DE throws at us in the future.

Why it's not enough? And why gating-on-cooldown would be enough? I can see how they make some "super strong" enemy that could melt your health even on "boosted state" (like I described) but that would mean that you are completely not prepared.

However health gating could still be "irrelevant" if you cannot survive after X second of immortality. And from my experience, in a lot of cases I either too strong so nothing can hurt me too much. Or I am so weak that they kill me quickly even I have X second of immortality.

[TnaneverRisen]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

No, I haven't played Destiny (any). For one build with my Xaku I want:
- high status (chance & duration) weapon: so few dual stat mods (damage + status chance), another 90% status chance and status duration mod

- roll speed (no change in roll distance): amalgam barrel diffusion

- some efficiency - 30% efficiency

- strength 200% for full armor strip of the Gaze - 2x Umbral mods and Transient fortitude (-2 rank)

- speed - at least the Rush, maybe an Aura & amalgam mod

 

Without things like:

- weapon/frame buffs

- status mods merge (e.g. into corrosive as one mod)

- major enemy change

I don't see it could work.

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.  You'll see what I mean once you try it.  Free to download FYI.  You'd only have to pay if you wanted the latest expansions.