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Health Gating. Yay or nay?


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5 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.  You'll see what I mean once you try it.  Free to download FYI.  You'd only have to pay if you wanted the latest expansions.

Maybe.

Maybe I'll watch some movie to understand it.

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On 2021-01-09 at 4:55 AM, quxier said:

1) Armor makes just more HP - it doesn't change how complex & reliable something is.

2) I disagree. I don't think there is huge difference. However it doesn't matter... read above

3) Game is not balanced. One time you can relax and another time you will just keep on moving, using whatever necessary to survive. And it's all within the same (or similar) level of enemies. Making me wait X makes "your health gating" just random Y second of immortality every once in while.

Armor does provide complexity and reliability. It's a separate multiplier on top of your health that can double dip, or even triple dip alongside extraneous sources of damage reduction and damage resistance. When all are working together, that's not nothing, and it's just one benefit of many that health can boast over shields, except shields has the one benefit that actually matters, which is the gate. That's why my argument is:

Give warframes a health gate, but since health would once again be just blatantly better than shields if their gates worked the same way, have the health gate work a little differently so that both health and shields would be balanced.

And the overall game balance of Warframe is not the focus of this post. Let's try to stay on topic.

On 2021-01-09 at 4:55 AM, quxier said:

I would say that it's 40% but maybe my assumptions were wrong (diameter = 2x radius, hence 2x 20% = 40%). Sure, this is something but you are forgetting that this mod is (or at least was, I heard it doesn't knockdown enemies anymore) on itself. I used it just for my Furrax.

You're taking my calculations out of context. I very clearly stated that I was measuring in terms of the explosion's surface area(while not going as deep as the explosion's volume because that's 3-dimensional measuring and I just wanted to keep things simpler for readers). The reason being is that an explosion in Warframe has a radius, meaning that it's always a circle, which prompted my use of the formula for the surface area of a circle(A = pi * r^2), followed by the comparative percentage increase of an explosion's default radius of 1 with an increase of 0.24 from Firestorm, compared to adding Amalgam Furax Body Count's radial increase factor of 0.20, and NOT a direct percentage increase because that wouldn't really accurately describe the notice in real performance during gameplay.

It looks like this:

a = explosive weapon and Firestorm
b = explosive weapon, Firestorm, and Amalgam Furax Body Count

% increase from a to b = Ab / Aa = (pi * (1 + 0.24 + 0.20)^2) / (pi * (1 + 0.24)^2) = approximately a noticeable 34.8% explosion radius increase, in regards to applied gameplay

On 2021-01-09 at 4:55 AM, quxier said:

Why it's not enough? And why gating-on-cooldown would be enough? I can see how they make some "super strong" enemy that could melt your health even on "boosted state" (like I described) but that would mean that you are completely not prepared.

However health gating could still be "irrelevant" if you cannot survive after X second of immortality. And from my experience, in a lot of cases I either too strong so nothing can hurt me too much. Or I am so weak that they kill me quickly even I have X second of immortality.

You just answered your own question so I'll skip to the part where you claim that if we get more healthy health--rather than a health gate--but still die then we "are completely not prepared". I disagree to that because it's unfair to maybe half the cast of available warframes. Not all of them are named Chroma and have already high levels of ehp that would theoretically be kept safe via your "healthy health" method. Sometimes their names are Banshee or Vauban and their usual ehp levels are low to the point where just giving them more "healthy health" at low health, wouldn't work. It's not the player's fault for loving a warframe that can die easily because it has no survivability in its kit, and it shouldn't be their fault either. Not every frame deserves to be Hildryn, Chroma, or Nidus levels of tanky, but they should all have fair access to a safety net that doesn't restrict their build creativity. Shield gating provided that in a way, but restricted build creativity to the same old Decaying/Augur/Brief Respite combo, which is even more restrictive on warframes whose kits want a focus on health or armor over shields.

That's why I'm saying to provide a health gate to warframes so as to promote build freedom, while still respecting the fact that health is currently stronger than shields, barring the gate aspect.
Also, looking at this from a broader perspective, if the player loses just the first gate(their shields), then sure it should be fine if they can quickly restore it themselves; however, if they lose two gates in a row(their shield and health), then at some point they should be made vulnerable as consequence, especially since health also has armor to back it up--hence, the cooldown.
Both of these reasons play into my claim on why health gating should be implemented, and how it should be implemented.

And it's hard to put any weight behind the possibility of even health gating becoming irrelevant when your only evidence is your own personal experience; I don't know what you use, I don't know how you build it, I don't know how well you use it, and frankly I don't need to. This would be an added layer of protection with all of its reasoning already stated by me in the above paragraph, that would theoretically be both fair and function well(depending on if DE listens to player feedback of course).

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On 2020-08-08 at 6:48 AM, Aldain said:

DE could enable a /killall command through the chat.

...But then I'd bet people would just demand the mission starts at the success screen.

I think they can make it balanced by making it have friendly fire.

I think currently SP has the balance we need for most of the game. Mainly in terms of TTK, more interesting AI would be appreciated, though. 

Edited by PhiThagRaid
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1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

Armor does provide complexity and reliability. It's a separate multiplier on top of your health that can double dip, or even triple dip alongside extraneous sources of damage reduction and damage resistance. When all are working together, that's not nothing, and it's just one benefit of many that health can boast over shields, except shields has the one benefit that actually matters, which is the gate. That's why my argument is:

With 100 armor & 500 health you can take 10 hits from enemy X (no shield for simplicity). Next mission your enemy is 9 times stronger. 2nd hit will kill you. Where are your complexity & reliability?

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

And the overall game balance of Warframe is not the focus of this post. Let's try to stay on topic.

It's important because it's hard to get cooldown right. You set it too high - it won't be used. You set it to low - you are immortal. And this could happen in one game. Who cares if you cannot get one shoted if 1 second later you get killed by 2nd bullet? The system should gradually increase difficulty. Cooldowns won't do it.

 

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

You just answered your own question so I'll skip to the part where you claim that if we get more healthy health--rather than a health gate--but still die then we "are completely not prepared". I disagree to that because it's unfair to maybe half the cast of available warframes. Not all of them are named Chroma and have already high levels of ehp that would theoretically be kept safe via your "healthy health" method. Sometimes their names are Banshee or Vauban and their usual ehp levels are low to the point where just giving them more "healthy health" at low health, wouldn't work. It's not the player's fault for loving a warframe that can die easily because it has no survivability in its kit, and it shouldn't be their fault either. Not every frame deserves to be Hildryn, Chroma, or Nidus levels of tanky, but they should all have fair access to a safety net that doesn't restrict their build creativity. Shield gating provided that in a way, but restricted build creativity to the same old Decaying/Augur/Brief Respite combo, which is even more restrictive on warframes whose kits want a focus on health or armor over shields.

It's not that you cannot use Limbo or Ivara to "cheese" the game. However those frames rely on other methods to survive. I meant frames that take hits and needs some way to survive for a longer time than just few seconds.

Let's pick Protea.

You go for shields gating mods (augur set, brief respite and maybe Decaying Dragon key).

You want take "health approach". You get knocked down and killed because 1 second of immortality run out. Ok. You pick Sure footed but you get knocked down from time to time (it's 60%). Prime sure footed is for daily rewards so not everyone will have it. Ok, let's assume you have PSF and you won't get knocked down. Sometimes there are not many enemies so X seconds of cooldown is enough to get your health back. Sometimes there are few enemies that came at bad timing (when your cooldown weren't finished but you get full health) and you die.

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

build freedom

You will just create another "mandatory mods".

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

Also, looking at this from a broader perspective, if the player loses just the first gate(their shields), then sure it should be fine if they can quickly restore it themselves; however, if they lose two gates in a row(their shield and health), then at some point they should be made vulnerable as consequence, especially since health also has armor to back it up--hence, the cooldown.

There is difference between being vulnerable (you can survive) and "you will die few seconds later no matter what you do". Your method is 2nd option.

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

And it's hard to put any weight behind the possibility of even health gating becoming irrelevant when your only evidence is your own personal experience; I don't know what you use, I don't know how you build it, I don't know how well you use it, and frankly I don't need to. This would be an added layer of protection with all of its reasoning already stated by me in the above paragraph, that would theoretically be both fair and function well(depending on if DE listens to player feedback of course).

In my opinion the example about protea is objective.

And as I proved it won't function well.

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On 2020-08-08 at 4:48 AM, Yunjuwo said:

Shield Gating is currently dominating the meta in regards to general survivability. While this is due to the broken scaling of enemies, that's an issue that we can all pretty much agree on never getting fixed(imagine trying to balance enemies' damage to make it simultaneously fair and challenging for both a 600 EHP Loki and a Rhino sitting on a 100k Iron Skin).

They tried to fix this by Adding more Baby Sitting missions. Doesnt matter if it's Loki or Rhino.... The enemies will just ignore them both and go After that 25HP Easy Target you are suppose to be Defending 😱 !!!

On 2020-08-08 at 4:48 AM, Yunjuwo said:

I'm not asking for suggestions on the details how this would work. I'm simply asking if this should even be a thing in the first place.

Ofcourse it should... Sentients already have it... So Why shouldn't we have it too?

On 2020-08-08 at 4:48 AM, Yunjuwo said:

Yay or nay?

YAY !!! 

On 2020-08-08 at 5:07 AM, MasterBurik said:

What do you consider to be "high level enemies"?

Anything that can Kill Mirage.

On 2020-08-08 at 5:23 AM, Loza03 said:

You know what I would much rather do?

Fix  the disparity between the 600 EHP Loki and the 100K EHP Rhino.

I don't think the Loki or Rhino players want this disparity to be fixed.... Loki's don't want to tank and Rhino's don't want to die...

 

On 2020-08-08 at 5:23 AM, Loza03 said:

I believe that certain elements of a Warframe's base stats - namely, those pertaining to survivability - should not primarily be modded for.

Indeed... The same goes for guns... Damage 3.0 was suppose to do exactly that... But it never came.  😥

On 2020-08-08 at 6:15 AM, KitMeHarder said:

25% damage reduction and only a 1 second recharge delay (if not broken) is a big buff

Nope.... Sorry but 25% is far too low and the recharge delay timing is irrelevant because you are contanstantly getting shot at... This is exactly why we never use Recharge Delay mods.... They are a Wasted Slot.

On 2020-08-08 at 6:15 AM, KitMeHarder said:

. And survivability abilities are still great, like even in the Steel Path Shatter Shield does just fine.

My issue with all Survivability Abilities is the same issue I have with Octavia's Abilities... They are Boring... Some are good... Some are bad... But ultimately "Press 3 To Live" is not my idea of Fun...

On 2020-08-08 at 6:15 AM, KitMeHarder said:

Unlike shield gating where I have to specifically build for it, health is just too easy to gain in this game.

Is it ? 

I find Gaining Health to be almost just as Finicky as Gaining Energy... there's no Default method of Doing it.

On 2020-08-08 at 6:15 AM, KitMeHarder said:

Not to mention I don't think we need 2 invulnerability gates.

Ofcourse we don't need them... We Want them 😈 !!!

On 2020-08-08 at 7:30 AM, Robolaser said:

. This game has become ridiculously easy, how do people find that more entertaining?

Simple... It allows people to experiment more instead of rail roading them into specific builds and playstyles. 

On 2020-08-08 at 2:36 PM, selig_fay said:

Also, it would be fun if we had a second wind mechanic where we could reborn from killing enemies, but our bleeding timer will be lowered next time if we fall before 5 minutes have passed. But this may already be too strong.

Considering the way Vasca Kavat works I'm going to have to say "Too Strong" is already moot at this point. Since it's already possible they might aswell just Standardized it.

On 2020-08-09 at 6:36 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

Should we instead take these super tank frames and transpose the one thing that makes them worth using onto other frames?

Absolutely not.  No.  Never.  10000% against this.

You do realise that Inaros's having a large HP pool being his most important Characteristic is a problem right.... Atleast Nidus has other Tricks up his Sleeves .

Being against an idea because it would mean the most boring aspect of a specific Warframe would be threatened is truly worrisome...

Even Hildryn isn't this One Dimensional.... she's more than just "I have All the Shields" hence There was nothing for Hildryn Mains to be Salty about when They Standardized Shield Gating...

On 2021-01-08 at 11:05 PM, Xikto said:

Changing the select few frames that still have major survivaiblity issues is a far better option than changing the core systems at this point in the game.

Because the Core System is perfect ? 🤔

It would be better to fix the problem at the core so that the existing Warframe's and all Future Warframe's going forward don't need Individual reworks.....

On 2021-01-09 at 12:45 AM, TnaneverRisen said:

.  Maybe 10% sprint speed instead of 30%, etc

NOOOOOOOOOO !!? 😱 Not My Sprint Speed !!! 😱

On 2021-01-09 at 2:34 AM, quxier said:

Imagine wasting mod for 10% or 7.5% speed boost... Pack few mods for a frame, amalgam mods and maybe something else to see NO VISIBLE DIFFERENCE.

No. Thank you. That's silly.

Right !!! This is what bugged me about Hollow Knight. The devs were too greedy with the Charm Stats so the whole thing felt bland compared to Ori and The Will Of The Wisp's Shards.

On 2021-01-09 at 3:46 AM, TnaneverRisen said:

Imagine not having the imagination to understand how small bonuses add up to significant gameplay differences.  How silly would that be?

Explain them then... Because running 30% Faster seems like a bigger difference than Running 10% Faster 🤔....

 

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1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Nope.... Sorry but 25% is far too low and the recharge delay timing is irrelevant

That's equal to 100 armor. Not great, but it makes Hildryn and overshield builds plenty relevant. And the recharge delay is great for Hildryn, Gauss, and any player that doesn't have healing yet. It makes a large difference in the early game.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

My issue with all Survivability Abilities is the same issue I have with Octavia's Abilities... They are Boring

Ok.... You can't just have 4 nuke abilities on a frame, they need something to support/compliment them. And almost every ability in the game is "just press a button", and a few also just have you wiggle your camera around a bit.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Is it ? 

I find Gaining Health to be almost just as Finicky as Gaining Energy... there's no Default method of Doing it.

That was in context to gate-looping, so natural recharge doesn't matter. There are waaay more ways to force regen health at the end of the day.

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8 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Ok.... You can't just have 4 nuke abilities on a frame, they need something to support/compliment them. And almost every ability in the game is "just press a button", and a few also just have you wiggle your camera around a bit.

S/he doesn't want nuke abilities as well.

And it's not "press a button" is bad (at least for me). It's press & forget (for some time). Xaku's Grasp of Lohk (disarming part), Zephyr's Airbust, Ember's Fire blast to name few. Not every ability is great but they require at least some thoughts (even it's very small it's still something).

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42 minutes ago, quxier said:

And it's not "press a button" is bad (at least for me). It's press & forget (for some time).

Usually I'd call that needless tedium, if the bar is set by the abilities you listed above. CC abilites are not usually outstanding defense options (I.E. boss/VIP immunity), and when they are good for defense, it's because they affect more than just the initial cast of enemies.

  • GoL disarm - Might as well not have it (in terms of what makes this ability good), especially after the change that prevents you from recasting it once you have max guns.
  • Airburst - Worthless even as CC.
  • Fire Blast - Only worth casting for the armor reduction. Not to mention it has a horrible hitbox, and Ember has Immolation.

Not everything needs to be active/proactive, especially things that don't do noteworthy damage. I pick Rhino/cast Iron Skin to actively have fun with the Trumna, I don't need to actively try to say alive when he brings nothing else to the table.

 

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22 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

GoL disarm - Might as well not have it (in terms of what makes this ability good), especially after the change that prevents you from recasting it once you have max guns.

Low duration builds exist

23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Airburst - Worthless even as CC.

I disagree.

23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Fire Blast - Only worth casting for the armor reduction. Not to mention it has a horrible hitbox, and Ember has Immolation.

To be honest I haven't tried this too much (or even Ember in general) so I don't know a lot about this.

24 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Not everything needs to be active/proactive, especially things that don't do noteworthy damage. I pick Rhino/cast Iron Skin to actively have fun with the Trumna, I don't need to actively try to say alive when he brings nothing else to the table.

But that should be changed into passives or just a ability were on & off without any downsides of channeled abilities (e.g. afair Zenurik is worthless for channeled abilities).

Skills should do something meaningful in not very convoluted way. I can see how you may prefer passive where they just don't do anything interesting & active skills may not fit your game style as they are convoluted (not easy to do).

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

Low duration builds exist

Then play Loki. You completely ruin the rest of the frame's kit for a worse Radial Disarm.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

But that should be changed into passives or just a ability were on & off

Except you need to still earn that power through energy management, building Ironclad Charge, keeping track of the remaining health, etc...

I don't see how these "press and forget" skills ruin the engagement level of the game, they just let you dedicate it elsewhere. And why is "on & off" better than current Iron Skin? That's still an ability, which is even more passive now.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Skills should do something meaningful in not very convoluted way. I can see how you may prefer passive where they just don't do anything interesting & active skills may not fit your game style as they are convoluted

Firstly, you're contradicting yourself, are active skills convoluted or not?

And I greatly enjoy active abilities such as Spores for example. But I don't need 4 active abilities like Spores that conflict with each other, I need a passive ability like Toxic Lash to compliment and support what Spores is already doing.

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I mean shields are basically extra health that does not block status effects and that automatically replenish, I'm not sure a second universal "health gate" mechanic is needed, if that was the ask then my stance is nay,

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or same way how sentient like a batalyst /conculyst works with their adaptation preventing one shots (towned down a bit offcourse)

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Battalyst

"

The damage gating also prevents Battalysts from being killed in one shot, as the maximum percentage of health removable in one instance is:

  • 25% at full health
  • 20% between 75% & 55% max HP
  • 20% between 55% & 35% of max HP
  • 15% between 35% & 20%, after which there is no limit and the Battalysts will take damage normally at every instance"
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23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:
1 hour ago, quxier said:

 

Then play Loki. You completely ruin the rest of the frame's kit for a worse Radial Disarm.

Sure, it's harder but you don't need a lot of time. In my opinion ~75% duration is sweet spot. It's long enough to keep buffs (with the Vast untime if you need more) but short enough so the Grasp of lohk's guns "expire" in short time.

26 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

energy management

Just throw some pizzas... Energy management is not fun in this game... or maybe it's not my cup of tea as well? Maybe.

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

building Ironclad Charge

I don't mean things like this. You are doing something (hitting enemies) to get bonuses. I meant things like Mirage's 1 or 3 where you just press those keys from time to time.

32 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

don't see how these "press and forget" skills ruin the engagement level of the game, they just let you dedicate it elsewhere.

That's it. Why should we bother with managing "press & forget abilities" when we can have fun somewhere else? When I've been playing the Mirage I keep Hall of Mirrors active all the time. Eclipse weren't visible enough so I've just put it on when I remind that there is buff that's not active. Energy weren't the problem because I could just put pizzas/Zenurik. Turning on such abilities aren't interesting. I still have to waste time on it. If it were a passive then we could get more interesting and active abilities.

50 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Firstly, you're contradicting yourself, are active skills convoluted or not?

Maybe I wasn't very precise. I'm sorry. I meant skills should be easy to understand but harder to master. The last frame I've farmed, Lavos, is good example. You can mix elemental damage (e.g. cold & toxin). It's easy to randomly mix and kill low level enemies but you can have problems with higher level enemies. Here comes "master" part: you need to know what element is good and what is bad*.

So if you have to do A, B, C, D, E... to just get simple +N armor (or something) then you would either choice simpler skills to activate (e.g. A + B) or just on/off skill.

* it's not perfect but general idea still holds the truth.

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6 hours ago, quxier said:

If it were a passive then we could get more interesting and active abilities.

IMO that'd more-than-likely ruin the balance the game currently has. And if you make Shatter Shield a passive on Mesa, and add something like Air Burst, I'm still not going to use Air Burst. Not because I don't enjoy active play, but because CC that only affects ~8 enemies isn't good, especially if it doesn't help facilitate in killing them.

And I understand, casting "press and forget" abilities with less than 150% duration can be a pain... but that's why modding exist. And is a balancing factor, where if I don't have the attention to keep up Roar on my 78% duration Mag, then I shouldn't use Roar.

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Lavos, is good example. You can mix elemental damage (e.g. cold & toxin). It's easy to randomly mix and kill low level enemies but you can have problems with higher level enemies.

I understand why you'd say that, but to me Lavos played efficiently ends up being one of the least active frames, just tediously checking off boxes to make sure his 4 is good.

  • 1st ability - Worthless
  • 2nd - Worthless
  • 3rd - Use it only so you can use your 4
  • 4th - Standstill and press "one" button after you've completed your checklist

Lavos' checklist

  • Standstill spam Cedo
  • Infuse 4th
    • If Corpus, toxin
    • If anything else, heat
  • Cast 4th
  • Turn 90-180 degrees to cast his 3 in the hallway with the most enemies (for the cooldown only)
  • And since I'm already standing still might as well Helminth on Resonator to stand even more still
  • Repeat

Just cause you're tediously doing all that doesn't make him more active. I.E. Rhino with a Bramma is way more active.

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21 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

IMO that'd more-than-likely ruin the balance the game currently has. And if you make Shatter Shield a passive on Mesa, and add something like Air Burst, I'm still not going to use Air Burst. Not because I don't enjoy active play, but because CC that only affects ~8 enemies isn't good, especially if it doesn't help facilitate in killing them.

Sure, not everything is easy to convert.

22 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

And I understand, casting "press and forget" abilities with less than 150% duration can be a pain... but that's why modding exist. And is a balancing factor, where if I don't have the attention to keep up Roar on my 78% duration Mag, then I shouldn't use Roar.

In my opinion duration should be used on something like Gauss' Mach rush where you would control how long he will run if you just press the ability key OR how long Mirage's "disco ball" will be on. And in first case when you control your avatar there is "hold to continue" option.

It's not that I cannot use builds with negative duration (example with Xaku) but it's more fighting the system than using it. It's like cheating.

41 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I understand why you'd say that, but to me Lavos played efficiently ends up being one of the least active frames, just tediously checking off boxes to make sure his 4 is good.

For me (I rarely use 4th) he is active (not like disarming Xaku but still) but my point was how he is easy to understand but harder to master.

Few only 0-2 key presses & 1 hold (I have inverted tap/hold) you can affect an enemy with given damage type. That's easy, right?

What's harder is to know factions & what damage types to use on them.

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Well, that depends on the gate, doesn't it? 

 

I see some people mentioning Borderlands as a successful implementation of health and shield gating, but Borderlands had enemies that would require that gate to exist for you to survive regardless of level. Health gating wasn't a failsafe in BL2, it was a mechanic you had to use to survive. In Warframe, since enemy damage scales up ilover time instead of over level, such a system would be badly abused. 

 

If you want a health gate, the best in my opinion. For Warframe would be a gate at 50% that would leave you at 1% health if you sustain that much damage in less than a second for a short time , but the gate would not reactivate unless you refill 80% or so of your health. It'll prevent straight Yolo buolds while allowing people to make at least 1 mistake. 

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Just make enemies and players deal percental damage depending on unit type... This could also make players use their brains little more during boss fights, preventing oneshot-evacuate situation in assasinations... PROBLEM SOLVED.

Edited by B4HEK
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On 2021-01-08 at 10:45 PM, TnaneverRisen said:

I pretty much agree.  There needs to be a very heavy stat normalization.

I think I'd disagree when it comes to frame health pools.

A good analogy I feel is that we have an Eve Online range of tanking methods.
There you have the basic shield tanks, armour tanks (fairly standard and what we have here with shield/health) but also variants like speed-tanks where the enemies just can't track you and anti-targeting tanking by either removing the opponent's ability to lock onto you or outranging them.

Loki is analogous to one of those variants where the winning move is not to allow hits to land at all. The same is said for crowd-controllers with little to no resistance abilities. It is, ostensibly, high risk and high reward because you don't have to worry about your healing at the cost of not being given much of a chance to survive if a hit does get through.

 

Unfortunately, the state of Warframe's design in 'difficult' content is far too often either "you can't realistically function without fully preventing enemies from attacking" or "get rekt nerd, these enemies/hazards are unavoidable and ignore your strategies to hit you anyway". Occasionally it can even be both. 

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I think the OP summarizes the inherent problem at hand within the first paragraph: at the end of the day, shield gating, and the health gating being proposed here, are nothing but band-aids to a broken scaling system, itself faced up against horrendously imbalanced frame health pools. Sure, we could give Inaros a health gate to prevent him from getting one-shot past a certain level of content, but that itself wouldn't address the fact that Inaros shouldn't be getting one-shot in the first place, or two-shot with that kind of gating. The OP claims that the underlying issues are impossible to fix, but I disagree: for sure, it would be very difficult to do, and would make some people unhappy in the process as it would inevitably incur rebalancing, but it would be a necessary step to inject at least a little more sanity and consistency to our play.

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22 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I think I'd disagree when it comes to frame health pools.

A good analogy I feel is that we have an Eve Online range of tanking methods.
There you have the basic shield tanks, armour tanks (fairly standard and what we have here with shield/health) but also variants like speed-tanks where the enemies just can't track you and anti-targeting tanking by either removing the opponent's ability to lock onto you or outranging them.

Loki is analogous to one of those variants where the winning move is not to allow hits to land at all. The same is said for crowd-controllers with little to no resistance abilities. It is, ostensibly, high risk and high reward because you don't have to worry about your healing at the cost of not being given much of a chance to survive if a hit does get through.

 

Unfortunately, the state of Warframe's design in 'difficult' content is far too often either "you can't realistically function without fully preventing enemies from attacking" or "get rekt nerd, these enemies/hazards are unavoidable and ignore your strategies to hit you anyway". Occasionally it can even be both. 

 

If the devs could pull this off even half as well as Eve, that would be great, but I bet they either lack the willingness or capability.  Eve's intricate mechanics have been fine-tuned for years, and it's so good that you can have hundreds of players using numerous gameplay styles in one area while doing PvP and PvE at the same time.  Eve has considered things like diminishing returns on mods, actual turret tracking values that players can see, ship velocity and angular velocity, missile and explosion velocity, ship signature vs weapon resolution, velocity vs signature bloom tradeoffs, projectile optimal and falloff ranges, sensor strength vs electronic warfare strength, damage types that actually matter, buffer vs active tank vs capacitor balance, etc.  Warframe has ... well ... almost nothing by comparison.

Warframe's gameplay and balance are so arbitrary and roughly cobbled together that the easiest way to improve it would be a stat normalization.  I'm not saying it's the ideal solution, but I don't see a better way to do it if you want tangible results in a reasonable amount of time.  Maybe the devs will surprise us.  Doubt it.

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On 2021-01-18 at 4:19 PM, quxier said:

With 100 armor & 500 health you can take 10 hits from enemy X (no shield for simplicity). Next mission your enemy is 9 times stronger. 2nd hit will kill you. Where are your complexity & reliability?

Okay, you seriously need to stop taking my words out of context just to support your own claim because it's getting annoying. You're completely taking out the fact that I mentioned armor stacking multiplicated on top of other sources of damage reduction. That it itself is good, especially since there is literally no mission in this game where you'll die in one or two hits if your build is even halfway decent(except the Nihil fight, but you can't even count that because his hits are coded to be one-hit deaths for any frame, and it's not so much a fight as it is a game of dodgeball).

On 2021-01-18 at 4:19 PM, quxier said:

It's important because it's hard to get cooldown right. You set it too high - it won't be used. You set it to low - you are immortal. And this could happen in one game. Who cares if you cannot get one shoted if 1 second later you get killed by 2nd bullet? The system should gradually increase difficulty. Cooldowns won't do it.

Once again, you're wrong. This post originated because of the game's imbalance yes, but that is another, broader subject entirely. If you want to talk about how messed up the enemy scaling, reward system, early progression, and everything else that can fall under the definition of the reason of this game's imbalance, then go make your own forum post--it's literally five clicks away. And while I do agree that it's important to get cooldowns right(I mean what fool wouldn't, so don't go getting a big head now that I'm agreeing with you), I've already repeated myself quite a few times now in saying: that detail should be determined by the feedback of the players. Meaning, sure I have a dozen different answers on the right cooldown time, and you could have a dozen different answers on the right cooldown time, but that wouldn't matter because thousands of other players would have thousands of different answers on the right cooldown time. The right answer is the general consensus, and that won't come now because this concept, much less the concept of health gating itself, hasn't even been sparked in the majority of players(nor possibly DE themselves) yet. And if you're gonna bring up how the "system should gradually increase difficulty" again, I'm gonna redirect you to the introduction of this paragraph so fast that I'll make Gauss jealous. You understanding things now yet?

On 2021-01-18 at 4:19 PM, quxier said:

It's not that you cannot use Limbo or Ivara to "cheese" the game. However those frames rely on other methods to survive. I meant frames that take hits and needs some way to survive for a longer time than just few seconds.

I would argue those certain frames that take hits and in need of ways to survive longer than a few seconds are in need of their own reworks, which, let me just remind you of, is not the focus of this forum post. The buffs that shield got helped buff those niche shield abilities in the past into the current powerhouses they are today. Before then, armor was just straight up better, and even today armor still has a few perks over shields. In which case, health gating, even though it could maybe only last a few seconds, should help buffer our health because of how armor stacks on top of it, and patch up builds where shield gating is bad/not an option. Remember that this forum post's focus was on health gating, meaning of course its intention was to assist those certain in surviving for just a few seconds more, and not for extended periods of time. Again, if you want that, go make your own forum post on those frames' reworks. Don't do it here.

On 2021-01-18 at 4:19 PM, quxier said:

You will just create another "mandatory mods".

I don't get how giving another toy to players for them to play with translates to making it mandatory for them to play with it a certain way. If Rhino's Iron Skin scales with Strength AND Armor, do you go with Umbral Fiber just because some youtuber claims that their build is the meta and that these mods are mandatory, or do you put together an original build using immortal Djinn with Synth Deconstruct and synergize that alongside Health Conversion because that's literally a different but stronger way to stack Iron Skin? Break out of your shell. There's more than one way to mod a warframe.

On 2021-01-18 at 4:19 PM, quxier said:

There is difference between being vulnerable (you can survive) and "you will die few seconds later no matter what you do". Your method is 2nd option.

Did you accidentally unplug your keyboard? Did your frame bug out and you can't move it now? Who told you you'll die a few seconds later no matter what? Did somebody tell you that if we get health gating and if your gate breaks, you're not allowed to play the game anymore? Take cover. Use an ability. Don't just stand there eating bullets. Do something. Anything.

And if the addition of health gating really will result in us dying no matter what, as you claim, then what kind of situation are we in right now where shield gating exists. The addition of health gating will literally only help every single frame, even if their abilities or builds don't focus on health gating. So by that logic, shield gating is useless right now, right? Go take that up with Mag mains, I'm sure you'll receive a warm reception.

On 2021-01-18 at 4:19 PM, quxier said:

In my opinion the example about protea is objective.

And as I proved it won't function well.

If you're referring to the bit where we can very well die with Protea(and in effect, virtually any other frame) if we get knockdown'ed, then yeah I agree. Getting knockdown'ed is an objective and universal consequence that every warframe wouldn't want to suffer.

But other than that and the part where we agree that cooldown timers should be done right(and even then I have to consistently remind you that my point still stands on how determining that belongs to the feedback of the overall playerbase), you've proved nothing. Wanna know why? Take Hildryn and give her health gating. Do you see her builds from players suddenly changing? I don't. But did she get worse? No, in fact she only got better, even if she's not really using it. Now take someone like Ember. Your health gate broke? Just pop some Fire Blasts to get all your health back and cc the enemies and boom, your gate eventually comes back safely. There's even some frames that will love health gating like Hydroid or Valkyr. They have access to full iframes for an extended period of time that also comes with healing. It would work pretty damn well there, and I don't even have to prove that.

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Disregarding my above reply, what do you all think about health gating working the same way as shield gating in terms of recovering the gate, and instead of a cooldown, every time you take lethal damage, your current energy reserves are cut in half? Should both the energy loss and a cooldown be applied? How should Quick Thinking alter things in that regard? Not my original idea so your thoughts will be appreciated for the person that suggested it to me, provided you have at least some reasoning behind it.

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Instead of arguing about an unneded health-gate mechanik, why are you not just talking about a way to make Inaros passive usable? Nidus has already his passive which prvents him from dying so in the end is Inaros the only one who can be oneshotted.

Making a complete new mechanic for all frames even though that only one frame has this problem isn't only stupid, but there's also the problem that it will break the ingame balance even more than it already is... 

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