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Health Gating. Yay or nay?


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Without knowing any details about what this would imply specifically, I'm generally in favor of it (but I'd need to know the mechanics to give a definite answer). It doesn't feel good to be at 100% HP and then suddenly go to dead. I think I saw it mentioned already, but Borderlands has a system I like where if you are at above 50% of your health and you suddenly drop to zero, you instead get one last "hurrah" at very low health to try to respond to the situation. It gives the player a moment to realize that he's even dying instead of just being cruely one-shot into oblivion. 

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15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

Okay, you seriously need to stop taking my words out of context just to support your own claim because it's getting annoying. You're completely taking out the fact that I mentioned armor stacking multiplicated on top of other sources of damage reduction.

Really?

If you are just want to claim that armor stacking is.... and if I argue you said "stop taking my words out of context" then I don't think I will argue.

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

literally no mission in this game where you'll die in one or two hits 

Enemies are kind enough to wait to shoot you one at time. One Griner: "Hey, Joe, can I shoot that Tenno? I need to go to the toilet.".

Half joking aside:

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

that detail should be determined by the feedback of the players.

Oh.... yeaaaah... my point it's impossible or very hard.

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

Did you accidentally unplug your keyboard? Did your frame bug out and you can't move it now? Who told you you'll die a few seconds later no matter what? Did somebody tell you that if we get health gating and if your gate breaks, you're not allowed to play the game anymore? Take cover. Use an ability. Don't just stand there eating bullets. Do something. Anything.

Do you think I'm just sitting there "enjoying the view"?

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

And if the addition of health gating really will result in us dying no matter what, as you claim, then what kind of situation are we in right now where shield gating exists. The addition of health gating will literally only help every single frame, even if their abilities or builds don't focus on health gating. So by that logic, shield gating is useless right now, right? Go take that up with Mag mains, I'm sure you'll receive a warm reception.

But you have health to back up your shield. If you run out of shield you still have some health. We are talking case when you don't have shield and have just tiny bit of health. Suuuure... you can reliably heal yourself however in this kind of situation do you really need that kind of "health gate"?

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

And if you're gonna bring up how the "system should gradually increase difficulty" again, I'm gonna redirect you to the introduction of this paragraph so fast that I'll make Gauss jealous. You understanding things now yet?

Not sure where my preference would fit that part of your text.

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

I don't get how giving another toy to players for them to play with translates to making it mandatory for them to play with it a certain way. If Rhino's Iron Skin scales with Strength AND Armor, do you go with Umbral Fiber just because some youtuber claims that their build is the meta and that these mods are mandatory, or do you put together an original build using immortal Djinn with Synth Deconstruct and synergize that alongside Health Conversion because that's literally a different but stronger way to stack Iron Skin? Break out of your shell. There's more than one way to mod a warframe.

Then there might be few ways to do it but you still create some groups of mods (or in general elements) that works nice together. You mentioned 3 elements (Djinn, Synth Deconstruct and Health Conversion). Sure, that's alternatives, and that's nice but I wouldn't call it "build freedom".

15 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

Take Hildryn and give her health gating. Do you see her builds from players suddenly changing? I don't. But did she get worse? No, in fact she only got better, even if she's not really using it.

Xaku (just example) can run 20% faster in the Vast untime form. They (Xaku) is faster but the thing is... you don't see too much difference. The speed buff might be deleted and a lot of people won't see the change.

The same can go for Hildryn.

Ok... that's extreme example so lets go for

16 hours ago, Yunjuwo said:

Now take someone like Ember. Your health gate broke? Just pop some Fire Blasts to get all your health back and cc the enemies and boom, your gate eventually comes back safely. There's even some frames that will love health gating like Hydroid or Valkyr. They have access to full iframes for an extended period of time that also comes with healing. It would work pretty damn well there, and I don't even have to prove that.

But... hmmm.... that's good point.

 

Disregarding Knockbacks (any form) there aren't many things that prevents you doing those actions.

Nullies might be a problem... but they are annoying in general.

Commander could teleport you... but it's so easy, at least for me, to prevent it so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

In general I have some doubts but your solution sounds reasonable. It's hard to talk about it without trying it but I give you "we can try it and see how it will work".

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On 2021-01-22 at 1:56 PM, ES-Flinter said:

Instead of arguing about an unneded health-gate mechanik, why are you not just talking about a way to make Inaros passive usable? Nidus has already his passive which prvents him from dying so in the end is Inaros the only one who can be oneshotted.

Making a complete new mechanic for all frames even though that only one frame has this problem isn't only stupid, but there's also the problem that it will break the ingame balance even more than it already is... 

Because as I've said many times already, not all frames' builds can take advantage of this new shield gating meta effectively, and even when they do build for shield gating, it usually weakens their kit's efficiency. Another reason is that concepts for what you're asking for, which is essentially an Inaros rework, has already been done with to the grave and back.

If handled correctly, I don't believe it will break anything that isn't already broken. And the reply of "then you need to fix the game, not give players a new toy" is arguably true yes, but not the focus of this post.

If you think Inaros was the one and only reason why I made this post, you're sorely mistaken. But if you really want to read Inaros things, I gave my ideas for him back in page 1, and as I've said, there's plenty of Inaros rework forum posts for you to binge, and of course you can also make your own.

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On 2021-01-22 at 2:51 PM, Acos said:

Without knowing any details about what this would imply specifically, I'm generally in favor of it (but I'd need to know the mechanics to give a definite answer). It doesn't feel good to be at 100% HP and then suddenly go to dead. I think I saw it mentioned already, but Borderlands has a system I like where if you are at above 50% of your health and you suddenly drop to zero, you instead get one last "hurrah" at very low health to try to respond to the situation. It gives the player a moment to realize that he's even dying instead of just being cruely one-shot into oblivion. 

That's basically the focus of what I meant by "health gating". A situation where a player chooses x frame that can't/doesn't utilize shield gating effectively, and being punished for their aesthetic choice(which, c'mon, isn't that why we all play Warframe?) lacking effective access to shields in their kit. Preventing situations like that with a new mechanic that doesn't break the game like shield gating did on release, but still provides build diversity by giving players a new choice on which way to build their frames, whether shields or health, is what I'm trying to exaggerate.

How the mechanics would work, I'm open to ideas.

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15 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

Because as I've said many times already, not all frames' builds can take advantage of this new shield gating meta effectively, and even when they do build for shield gating, it usually weakens their kit's efficiency. Another reason is that concepts for what you're asking for, which is essentially an Inaros rework, has already been done with to the grave and back.

If handled correctly, I don't believe it will break anything that isn't already broken. And the reply of "then you need to fix the game, not give players a new toy" is arguably true yes, but not the focus of this post.

If you think Inaros was the one and only reason why I made this post, you're sorely mistaken. But if you really want to read Inaros things, I gave my ideas for him back in page 1, and as I've said, there's plenty of Inaros rework forum posts for you to binge, and of course you can also make your own.

Shieldgate wasn't "intended" to be abused the way it is, and any Warframe that simply has any shield value at all instead of being pure HP already has enough access to shield gate, and by the way, there's multiple ways to fully refresh shields.

Shield gate was just meant to block that occasional high damage shot for squishy Warframes, as you don't have to do endurance runs to get 1 shot with base hp/shield, and DE couldn't be bothered to balance enemies. The game is also not even balanced around endurance runs anyways [which is when HP/Defense becomes worthless], the frequency of straight up dying is uncommon.

You're also forgetting that Warframe's gearing system has always been about trade-offs. You give up something anytime you focus on a particular stat. If you're dying a lot, time to sacrifice something to live longer.

Most Warframes also already have built-in tools to survive longer beyond just relying on shields and health. Stealth is equivalent to turning off the enemy, there's a lot of long range spammable cc, various damage reduction buffs, projectile blockers, and even abilities that grant damage immunity that can be kept up indefinitely as long as you have energy. There's also OPerator.

If anything, all that needs to change in regards to surviving is deleting energy drain. It's horrible game design, sometimes it occurs just because an enemy spawned someone in a nearby room, and it impacts Warframes to a wide varying degree. It's one of the reasons Inaros is popular to begin with, he gets to survive all of the relevant content without ability usage. Hildryn is another good alternative since she has no energy to worry about, and her shields only get annoying to manage against infested.

Before you accuse me of being apart of the shield gating cult, my most used playstyle doesn't make use of shield gating other than by it occur naturally, with the only increased frequency being tied to using a Sentinel with Guardian equipped. I use a Renewal focused Oberon-P with a melee focus. Since the introduction of shield gate, this was my first week of ever even using the mechanic in an abusive manner due to formaing Hildryn; and yet, I still find the idea of a health gate absurd. 

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On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Really?

If you are just want to claim that armor stacking is.... and if I argue you said "stop taking my words out of context" then I don't think I will argue.

You're using 100 armor and 500 health as an example to disprove my claim that armor is useful? Those numbers are so weak, you'll be struggling against lv50s, which could be cleaned easily if you utilize a nuking build. And you DID take my words out of context because you completely skipped over the part where I said armor double-dips with dmg reduction, and also triple dips with that and dmg-resistance, and as any min-max'er knows: separate multipliers are extremely powerful. Separate multipliers are why crits are so powerful in games compared to only increasing your attack or damage stat(e.g. Pokemon, Borderlands, Final Fantasy, etc. literally any other rpg-like game). So once again, you DID take my words out of context and implemented them into your own trivial example to support your own claim against mine, it was very tactless, and yes I would appreciate it if you stop arguing.

 

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Enemies are kind enough to wait to shoot you one at time. One Griner: "Hey, Joe, can I shoot that Tenno? I need to go to the toilet.".

Half joking aside:

I want you to link me a video where upon entering a mission an enemy kills someone who is using a decent build, in one or two hits.

* The warframe's build has to be decent
* The time of death has to occur within the first five minutes of the mission
* The mission can NOT be hours into an endless mission
* The situation in how the player died has to make sense(meaning no "I'm afk, come kill me" crap)
* The timeframe of taking damage from the enemy that led to death has to be at the very least 10 seconds after the player received another instance of damage that didn't kill them
* The instance of damage that resulted in death has to have dropped the player from full shields and health(we ARE talking about instant death, aren't we?)
* No instance of self-damage
* No bugs playing a part in the video(obviously)

If you can find just one video where someone dies in one or two hits under these parameters, sure, I'll concede.

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Oh.... yeaaaah... my point it's impossible or very hard.

I don't think you understand the lack of weight of your own point. In the case of health gate being implemented, you do know there's thousands of players who have their own opinions on this hypothetical system, don't you? Your idea of "too high" or "too low" will not be the same as everyone else's and the only thing that will matter will be the agreement of the majority, because the world doesn't revolve around you alone.

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Do you think I'm just sitting there "enjoying the view"?

You claimed we'll "die few seconds later no matter what you do" so if you really believe there's literally nothing we can do, then I'll really believe you're just sitting there, waiting for death.

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

But you have health to back up your shield. If you run out of shield you still have some health. We are talking case when you don't have shield and have just tiny bit of health. Suuuure... you can reliably heal yourself however in this kind of situation do you really need that kind of "health gate"?

If you want to talk about a situation where we do have shields, then I'll just say "Toxin exists". RIP your shield gate, instant death, zero compensation for average player reaction time, no if's and's or but's about it. However, add a health gate, and suddenly it becomes fair.

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Then there might be few ways to do it but you still create some groups of mods (or in general elements) that works nice together. You mentioned 3 elements (Djinn, Synth Deconstruct and Health Conversion). Sure, that's alternatives, and that's nice but I wouldn't call it "build freedom".

The examples that I gave literally encapsulate the concept of build freedom down to a tee. The Umbral set approach is the more convenient build, while the Health Conversion approach is the more complex but also more rewarding build. And those are only two examples.

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Xaku (just example) can run 20% faster in the Vast untime form. They (Xaku) is faster but the thing is... you don't see too much difference. The speed buff might be deleted and a lot of people won't see the change.

That's subjective.

 

On 2021-01-23 at 4:50 AM, quxier said:

Disregarding Knockbacks (any form) there aren't many things that prevents you doing those actions.

Nullies might be a problem... but they are annoying in general.

Commander could teleport you... but it's so easy, at least for me, to prevent it so it shouldn't be a problem.

I mean for me personally, knockbacks and nullifiers are very telegraphed so the would be fine counters to health gate restoration(not like they don't counter virtually everything else in Warframe lol). Arson eximus waves, oncoming grapple hooks, shooting shiny blue/gold bubble--I have no problems with any of it and the only times I do have problems is when I'm tired or sleepy and I don't react as fast or as good. But that's my fault so it's fine.

Commanders, like energy leech eximus, are so damn cheap though. Just one of the few enemies that need to have their moves be telegraphed. Like, remember when DE finally added visual effects for the Corpus Comba and Scrambus auras? We need something like that for the cheaper enemies. Like a laser sight pointing on you for the Commander, or a gross looking energy tether for the energy leeches. Something.

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34 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Shieldgate wasn't "intended" to be abused the way it is, and any Warframe that simply has any shield value at all instead of being pure HP already has enough access to shield gate, and by the way, there's multiple ways to fully refresh shields.

Shield gate was just meant to block that occasional high damage shot for squishy Warframes, as you don't have to do endurance runs to get 1 shot with base hp/shield, and DE couldn't be bothered to balance enemies. The game is also not even balanced around endurance runs anyways [which is when HP/Defense becomes worthless], the frequency of straight up dying is uncommon.

You're also forgetting that Warframe's gearing system has always been about trade-offs. You give up something anytime you focus on a particular stat. If you're dying a lot, time to sacrifice something to live longer.

Most Warframes also already have built-in tools to survive longer beyond just relying on shields and health. Stealth is equivalent to turning off the enemy, there's a lot of long range spammable cc, various damage reduction buffs, projectile blockers, and even abilities that grant damage immunity that can be kept up indefinitely as long as you have energy. There's also OPerator.

If anything, all that needs to change in regards to surviving is deleting energy drain. It's horrible game design, sometimes it occurs just because an enemy spawned someone in a nearby room, and it impacts Warframes to a wide varying degree. It's one of the reasons Inaros is popular to begin with, he gets to survive all of the relevant content without ability usage. Hildryn is another good alternative since she has no energy to worry about, and her shields only get annoying to manage against infested.

Before you accuse me of being apart of the shield gating cult, my most used playstyle doesn't make use of shield gating other than by it occur naturally, with the only increased frequency being tied to using a Sentinel with Guardian equipped. I use a Renewal focused Oberon-P with a melee focus. Since the introduction of shield gate, this was my first week of ever even using the mechanic in an abusive manner due to formaing Hildryn; and yet, I still find the idea of a health gate absurd. 

No it wasn't intended to be abused, but it was, which is why so many builds have bent over backwards just to fit it in, and why if health gating was introduced, it 1) will offer diversity for frames since they can now choose shields or health 2) shouldn't be abusable, as health is already stronger than shields, barring the gate.

And yeah, DE doesn't want to point the future of the game towards endless stuff, but there are still cases where you'll die virtually instantly, even with a shield build, and even though you haven't stayed hours upon hours into a mission(e.g. high level Nox, venomous eximus if your build ignores health(but Toxin eximus are just stupid cheap and need the Comba/Scrambus treatment as I've mentioned in the above reply), Toxic ancients coming around a corner, a Jugulus sneezing on you while you're farming tokens on steel path deimos, etc.).

The bit about trade-offs, I mean c'mon, that's just a part of every game with rpg aspects.

Yes some warframes have reliable defensive options but most of them still don't, which means you gotta go with a gimmick gate build to patch them up. Which ties into the problem of "lack of build diversity" because every one who is not going "Vitality go burrrrr" is most likely hopping on the Decaying Key/Brief Respite train. The addition of health gating will only provide more options for those frames whose kits don't focus on shields, and do no harm for those who do.

As for your issue with energy drain eximus... I mean really, this will be the third time I'm repeating myself today: commanders, energy drain eximus, venomous eximus, shock eximus, whatever, they all just need the same treatment DE gave to Comba and Scrambus back when those two groups of enemies projected invisible auras. DE adding visual effects to these special enemies' special moves? Now that was a godsend.

And I wouldn't accuse you of that because this is the first time I've ever talked to you. In fact your whole reply here seems to show that you view shield gating hypothetically and (in terms of application)fairly, which is respectable.

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22 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

1) will offer diversity for frames since they can now choose shields or health 2) shouldn't be abusable, as health is already stronger than shields, barring the gate.

This wouldn't bring diversity to general play, the commonly played Warframes don't use shield oriented builds, they're all high in other stats, like strength or range while sitting at base hp/shield, or high HP/Armor [3x Umbra]. Wisp, As I said, Inaros is commonly played, and even focusing only at high MR, he's still frequently used, and Hildryn is a far more useful shield counterpart to Inaros, and yet, he's still played more than she is.

25 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

And yeah, DE doesn't want to point the future of the game towards endless stuff, but there are still cases where you'll die virtually instantly, even with a shield build, and even though you haven't stayed hours upon hours into a mission(e.g. high level Nox, venomous eximus if your build ignores health(but Toxin eximus are just stupid cheap and need the Comba/Scrambus treatment as I've mentioned in the above reply), Toxic ancients coming around a corner, a Jugulus sneezing on you while you're farming tokens on steel path deimos, etc.).

I personally haven't died to toxin outside of SP even when sitting at 390HP. I've only died to Toxin in SP, but that was one time, and it would make more sense to balance toxin itself, rather than introduce yet another safety measure. DE indirectly acknowledged bypassing shields without abilities was bad, given slash and gas lost the ability to do so, and they made toxin not bypass shields to that treasure guy.

28 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

The bit about trade-offs, I mean c'mon, that's just a part of every game with rpg aspects.

Getting another free escape death card defeats the purpose of trade-offs. Generally when you need to survive, it's something you gear for at the expense of offensive stats, it's rare for games to let you get it while keeping your pure offense builds. Games with similar auto cheat death mechanics have extremely long cool downs associated with them, not the 0 cool down that Warframe has.

31 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

Yes some warframes have reliable defensive options but most of them still don't.

The Warframes that don't have any of the defensive abilities I mentioned are actually very few. Out of that short list, some of them are Warframes that would be going 3x Umbra anyways, so they wouldn't be dying much, if at all, in any instance that isn't endurance running.

36 minutes ago, Yunjuwo said:

Which ties into the problem of "lack of build diversity" because every one who is not going "Vitality go burrrrr" is most likely hopping on the Decaying Key/Brief Respite train. The addition of health gating will only provide more options for those frames whose kits don't focus on shields, and do no harm for those who do.

Most people don't use Decaying/Brief Respite.

By the way, the game already has health gate in a way, you just have to give up your companion slot for it.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Martyr_Symbiosis

Although the mod was released a couple months after your request [November 19, 2020], so... pretty much wish granted unless DE deletes, but more likely it would get a cool down, or maybe it won't ever get changed if it doesn't get used much... who knows though. The other interactions with shield gate haven't been changed/nerfed other than Rakta Dark Dagger.

1 hour ago, Yunjuwo said:

And I wouldn't accuse you of that because this is the first time I've ever talked to you. In fact your whole reply here seems to show that you view shield gating hypothetically and (in terms of application)fairly, which is respectable.

It was just in reference to your opening post, when you mentioned the various cults.

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  • 1 month later...
On 2021-02-01 at 2:42 PM, Yamazuki said:

 

This wouldn't bring diversity to general play, the commonly played Warframes don't use shield oriented builds, they're all high in other stats, like strength or range while sitting at base hp/shield, or high HP/Armor [3x Umbra]. Wisp, As I said, Inaros is commonly played, and even focusing only at high MR, he's still frequently used, and Hildryn is a far more useful shield counterpart to Inaros, and yet, he's still played more than she is.

Not everyone is going to want str/ran/3x umbra, or could even fit 3x umbra

 

On 2021-02-01 at 2:42 PM, Yamazuki said:

I personally haven't died to toxin outside of SP even when sitting at 390HP. I've only died to Toxin in SP, but that was one time, and it would make more sense to balance toxin itself, rather than introduce yet another safety measure. DE indirectly acknowledged bypassing shields without abilities was bad, given slash and gas lost the ability to do so, and they made toxin not bypass shields to that treasure guy.

You haven't died to toxin normally because the sources of toxin dmg in this game are usually very telegraphed like Nox or Ancients. It's the certain eximus units in the game that give off no visual(or even audio) cues while they inflict their effect upon players(regardless of intensity), is when things are poorly designed.

 

On 2021-02-01 at 2:42 PM, Yamazuki said:

Getting another free escape death card defeats the purpose of trade-offs. Generally when you need to survive, it's something you gear for at the expense of offensive stats, it's rare for games to let you get it while keeping your pure offense builds. Games with similar auto cheat death mechanics have extremely long cool downs associated with them, not the 0 cool down that Warframe has.

I already recommended cooldowns...

 

On 2021-02-01 at 2:42 PM, Yamazuki said:

Out of that short list, some of them are Warframes that would be going 3x Umbra anyways

Agree to disagree

 

On 2021-02-01 at 2:42 PM, Yamazuki said:

By the way, the game already has health gate in a way, you just have to give up your companion slot for it.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Martyr_Symbiosis

This is bugged where the "heal pool" sets your warframe health to that heal pool, instead of being increased by the heal pool; potentially, you can lose health rather than gaining any. The invulnerability associated with this is also potentially a bug since it's stated nowhere in the description(though to be fair, that's an argument for like 99% of Warframe in general). You only get this pseudo health gate if you equip both a vulpaphyla companion and this mod, so it's much less of an actual choice and moreso a requirement in any "dangerous" content(dangerous being subjective within this context). And finally, it doesn't work unless your vulp is alive, and in content where this mod will take effect, your companion is likely to die much more frequently than you will.

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On 2020-08-07 at 10:48 PM, Yunjuwo said:

Shield Gating is currently dominating the meta in regards to general survivability. While this is due to the broken scaling of enemies, that's an issue that we can all pretty much agree on never getting fixed(imagine trying to balance enemies' damage to make it simultaneously fair and challenging for both a 600 EHP Loki and a Rhino sitting on a 100k Iron Skin).

Imagine a mario game having a better health system than a game with a judiciously "advanced" combat system...

Pin on Super Mario

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Shield gating is a big mistake.  It has created some very unrealistic expectation about what the game is.  

You know how you are supposed to tank lvl 9000 enemies hit? You don't. Your Warframe is supposed to die, much, much earlier than that. The game isn meant to be played at lvl 1000+. No sane game developers should be designing their game around waiting 4-5 hours until "the real game start". This is insane. I'm sure there will always be a subset of player with far too much time on their hands. But the vast majority doesn't. Like holy cow not even Asian MMO developers create dungeons that need you to spend a minimum of 4 hours.  

Pseudo- Immortality shouldn't be a thing in a game. Same with perma invisibility or perma AoE CC. But thats another topic. 

So instead of further expanding this catastrophic mistake, DE should nerf it. Add a 10 seconds cooldown to shield gate. No exception. 

Traditional game design have health benefit from armor/damage reduction more suitable for front line tanking. Shield dont have armor but can regen easier so its more usable for hit and run. But in Warframe Health has too many way to regen so this design falls apart completely. If DE cant achieve this basic design then they should just remove shield from the game, instead of tacking on all these more cheese mechanics.

 

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4 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

So instead of further expanding this catastrophic mistake, DE should nerf it. Add a 10 seconds cooldown to shield gate. No exception. 

Add cooldown and make it into some random something... no thank you.

 

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