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Thoughts on the current market system


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(Sry, if my english is a little rough, it's not my native language)
The Warframe market system, I will be honest with you, I really don't like it. It's my currently biggest critiscism on Warframe.
You either have an overloaded chat where everyone is fighting for attention or you have Warfrmame market, where you either have to contact people and hope they are not AFK, or get contacted by people while you are in a match and can't fokus on the actual mission anymore because platinum is waiting.
(Also having your broken Trade system "fixed" by a third party website ist not exactly good Gamedesign. And DE are not bad Developers,
quite the opposite I would say, they can do better)
But the biggest prolem with the current trade system is Time.
Hear me out: I currently sit on Loot, probably worth somewhere around 500-800 Plat. Not big things like a Loki Prime set for 300 Plat, but also many smaller things for around 20-50 Plat.
If I want to sell them I have to either write all thoose things down in Trade chat, hope people can read them, like the prizes, If no one replies write all things down again and repeat until I get messaged. In case I get messaged by mutliple people I have to manage all of them, meet with all of them in the Dojo, and then trade with them one at a time.
Or I try to sell stuff on Warframe market, where I either try to find buyers and hope they are not AFK, or I upload them as a "Want to sell" order ans wait till I get messaged by 10 different people in a 40 Minute survival for Steel essence.
Annoying.
Of course, there is a way to prevent that. And that is to stay in the Dojo. For hours. Waiting for Replies. And I REALLY can use my time better then that.
Do I want to play the actual game, or do I want to stay in the Dojo doing nothing.
I think you can get what I mean by know. The current trady system is like a Grind on top of the Grind that is the game itself.
First Grind the actual materials, and then there is another Grind to actually get something out of them.
But I don't want to just Complain. Here is my solution: (I'm oviously not a Game designer, DE for sure can find a better solution)

I know Warframe players don't like to hear it, but my suggestion would be an Auction house, like BDO has it.
Believe me, I'm not a big BDO player, I played around 140 Hours, which just like for Warframe is not much, and I already stopped playing it.
But if there's one thing from BDO I remembered it's the market system. As Warframe being my only MMO, when I started BDO I was suprised
how EASY it is to buy and sell stuff. I wanted it be also so easy in Warframe.
I already saw a discussion on this on another Forum post, and I want to talk about some of the arguments against
such a system:

"There would by too many Items, which would sink the price of all Items":
Make the think Region locked, also BDO gave every Item a maximum and minimum price that it could get selled for,
dont know if this could also work in Warframe, but it is a possibility.

"DE would make less money with such a system":
First of all, No, there would be more transactions alltogether, since it's easyer to buy and sell stuff. Which meanes more platinum flows around, and it gets easyer to get get Platinum aka spend it. Also, if thats really your problem, I personally would have nothing against a market fee from like 5-10%. Which means if I sell something for 20 PLat, the buyer needs to spend 20 Plat, but I only get 18, the other 2 get yeeted out of existence. This could also make the current market system still relevant, because of it not having a fee.

"I like the current market system, I get fair value for a fair amount of time spend":
First of all, I'm glad you can enjoy something I can't, no really. Thats great. But the current market system doesn't need to go for people who like it. But the game and the players would overall benefit from a new system. Less time needed to sell stuff = more time to play = more things to sell = GROFIT

OK, that was it. Just wanted to get my thoughts out there. Thanks for reading the thing. Probably has a lot of typos and other mistakes I didn't notice, sry for that.
As I already said, Im not a Game designer, so DE could definetly make a better market system than what I proposed here. But the overall point I wanted to make is the same.

Have a great day and good Loot

 

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vor 14 Minuten schrieb Karasokami:

Make the think Region locked, also BDO gave every Item a maximum and minimum price that it could get selled for,
dont know if this could also work in Warframe, but it is a possibility.

I think this would create more problems. Players in communities are from all around the world. Many clans have people from different regions. Should they suddenly not be allowed to trade anymore? An EU condition overload isnt more likely to drop than one from NA. I doubt max and min price would work either because it should lead to people coming up with other currencies. Hypothetical example: a price of 800 plat wouldnt be paid just like that anymore but instead with 400 plat and an arcane set that is worth 400 plat. Or even worse people would do multiple trades to circumvent the restriction.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Karasokami:

First of all, No, there would be more transactions alltogether, since it's easyer to buy and sell stuff. Which meanes more platinum flows around, and it gets easyer to get get Platinum aka spend it. Also, if thats really your problem, I personally would have nothing against a market fee from like 5-10%. Which means if I sell something for 20 PLat, the buyer needs to spend 20 Plat, but I only get 18, the other 2 get yeeted out of existence. This could also make the current market system still relevant, because of it not having a fee.

Everything would be much cheaper so if your calculation ends up being positive for DE there is questionable. I havent heard the idea of a plat tax but that would seem very greedy to me honestly. Skins, slots and new gear are enough of a plat sink. To me it seems like a convoluted attempt to push up prices again after shooting them into the ground with an auction house.

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Karasokami:

First of all, I'm glad you can enjoy something I can't, no really. Thats great. But the current market system doesn't need to go for people who like it. But the game and the players would overall benefit from a new system. Less time needed to sell stuff = more time to play = more things to sell = GROFIT

And everything loses value so less and less profit. Especially as newer player getting plat would become very difficult because your options would be very limited. A lot of people with more plat dont bother with selling their small stuff because it's not worth their time. If it were to become super convenient for them to sell all their low price dupes, the price for them would vanish into nothing and they would push newer players out of the market. Prime parts and derelict mods are good income for new players because they are consistent, not because they are high in value.

I dont really see the issue of just telling someone to wait until after your current mission is done to trade. When you commit to a long mission you should just set yourself to invisible on wf.market or are you only doing hour long survivals? How can it be that you get messaged right away when you commit to a long mission but have to wait for hours in the dojo until someone messages you?

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1 hour ago, Karasokami said:

I know Warframe players don't like to hear it, but my suggestion would be an Auction house, like BDO has it.

We don't like to hear it because DE has very clearly stated multiple times that there are a few things that will never be added to the game... ever.  1 of those things is an Auction House.  Some of us would prefer the Auction House over the current system, yet we still don't like to hear about it because it gets really annoying having people effectively ask over and over again a question where the set-in-stone answer is already known.

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I agree with the need for an easy-to-use, low-maintenance, noticeboard-like trade channel. You put up part X for Y plat, and anyone can buy it immediately. They get the part, you get the plat in your account. You can focus on playing the game, and you don't even have to be online when someone buys the stuff you are selling. It also works the other way around, you can offer Y plat for part X, and anyone can then sell it to you without further ado. I would like to point out that this would be a "fixed price"-concept, not an auction board. An auction board is a much more complex system, in that it gives (rich) traders an extra opportunity to manipulate the market. That kind of business (offer-counteroffer, actioning) could and should still be handled player-to-player and/or in the live trade chat. Or off-game, through 3rd party sites.  

A system like this would affect a lot of things. The price of many parts would go down, which mostly affect the currently active traders and whales, aiming to make profits. It would become much easier to get prime parts, which would both level out the effect of "bad luck rng" (a positive effect) but reduce one of the incentives to play the game, gathering and cracking relics (a negative effect, slightly reminiscent of a P2W-scheme). Many (= MANY!) more players would engage in trading, and trading would become a bigger part of the game. DE would have to monitor and manage this, as it could be both good and bad.

As to DE "losing income" from a notice board market, which of course would affect the game and it's development negatively, well, that is simply a (made-up) theory propagated by currently active traders (who doesn't want a notice board market). All you need to do to debunk that theory is to check out real world examples. Any ill effects could be easily managed by an automatic sales tax of x% (or whatever is appropriate) paid in plat by the active party (the one putting up an offer, selling or buying). I would personally happily pay such a tax for a system that allowed me to buy/sell stuff on an automated notice board market. Such an option might actually make DE more money (which is a good thing for the game we love), as the amount of trading would increase a lot, which would underscore the need for (at least a little) plat as an important in-game resource. After all, that (sales tax) is how a lot of countries, counties etc. finance a lot of stuff, and it works quite well.

As Warframe continuously grows and new stuff arrives, such a market would be a huge boon to new players. Instead of having to go to 3rd party websites or stare at the trade chat for hours, they could simply put up an offer for the vaulted prime part they are currently in need of (or check if someone is already selling). I've given so many vaulted parts (and relics containing them) to our clan's new players that I am 100% sure it would make their gaming experience better, and their investment in the game bigger. It is not just for the MR (though that is part of it, there comes a point where you can't advance without vaulted stuff), it is for all the "legendary" builds, plays and setups they find on the net. So the overall effect on the game from an improved trading channel (in a noticeboard format) would, IMHO, be quite positive. Also income-wise, for DE. It might negatively affect the current ways that the small part of the community focused on trading are "enriching" themselves on plat, but that might not even necessarily be a bad thing for the game overall.

Finally, as to parts "losing value" if they are more easily traded, well, to me that is both false and an indication of that the current system isn't working very well. In a really open market the selling/buying price would (grossly simplified) be determined by supply and demand, but in Warframe the price points are currently instead affected by the trading system(s) themselves. Making trading easier might very well affect price points, but that would happen by removing the current effects from sub-standard trading systems (putting sellers and buyers on unequal footing due to experience, among other things). So what would actually happen is that prices currently inflated due to deficiencies in the market system would find their true level.

Edited by Graavarg
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5 hours ago, Karasokami said:

I'm not a big BDO player

I also played BDO and I'm not happy with this system. But in BDO, this is done because some players have billions of money and can simply ruin the market. I don't think fixed prices are suitable for warframes. In Eve online, where the economy is the most developed, there are no fixed prices and the market works normally. Yes, of course there are people who are trying to outbid the price by making 0.01 less or more, but this is the game of merchants, they see this as their philosophy. Personally, I do not mind giving 10% to a person who will sell my things without my participation.

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hace 3 horas, Jiminez_Burial dijo:

We don't like to hear it because DE has very clearly stated multiple times that there are a few things that will never be added to the game... ever.  1 of those things is an Auction House.  Some of us would prefer the Auction House over the current system, yet we still don't like to hear about it because it gets really annoying having people effectively ask over and over again a question where the set-in-stone answer is already known.

Seems like someone in the dev team is being stupidly stubborn for no good reason. We already have an unofficial auction house (warframe.market) working exactly like those from other games and it functions much better than the current system. Not only than, ever since they opened up their riven action section, riven prices have gone down and stabilized, rather than being a rollercoaster. Holy #*!%, ti turns out that the system they hate works way better than their stupid system, but they are being to stubborn or proud to acknowledge it, let alone admitting it. 

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yes, current trade is very tedious to use

and you can find yourself wasting lots of Time camping it to try and negotiate the best prices.

But there is a way around this:

be a big spender and just dump plat for items fast. if you offer a high bid, people will sell and you get out of there faster.

 

And that is entirely intentional on DE's part.

Trading is intentionally left gimped so that the best option for the impatient is to Just Pay Up. either via Prime Access packs, or via real$$$ conversions so you can offer fast high bids to other players.

same reason why they Don't want an Auction House, in DE's mind P2P Trading is competing with P2DE purchases, but they have to leave barely functional p2p trades in to avoid being labelled as a pay-to-win game. its not pay-to-win if that Riven came from Another Player instead of the company itself.

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On 2020-08-08 at 12:18 PM, Graavarg said:

As to DE "losing income" from a notice board market, which of course would affect the game and it's development negatively, well, that is simply a (made-up) theory propagated by currently active traders (who doesn't want a notice board market). All you need to do to debunk that theory is to check out real world examples. Any ill effects could be easily managed by an automatic sales tax of x% (or whatever is appropriate) paid in plat by the active party (the one putting up an offer, selling or buying). I would personally happily pay such a tax for a system that allowed me to buy/sell stuff on an automated notice board market.

I can quote you a real world example which I have posted here several times in response to AH requests. Pirates of the Burning Sea. They shifted from a blind auction house where you could see the value of the last couple of successful bids but not the actual list prices. Sales prices typically stayed about a third above production costs. Then they switch it so you could see the listing and the -1 war started immediately driving prices down so only those with the absolute lowest production costs could sell anything. It destroyed the economy in the game in about a month and their AH is now seeded by the devs because all of the producers left the game.

A plat tax would not be popular with players because DE would effectively be setting the prices and it is well known that they don't really have an economy specialist. This is why some resources/items are fairly rare and we have so many of other items such as nano spores we once had a competition to see who had the most. DE setting a min/max price would be the same. It wouldn't be a free economy any more.

You will find that those games that have an AH use in-game currency that is not related to real money in any way specifically to avoid affecting their revenue streams which WF can't do unless they introduce a new currency that could be used for buy/sell. If they ever launched an AH and it went badly for them it isn't like they could just turn it off without massive player backlash so it would be a huge risk they would be crazy to even think about.

I'll be the first to admit trading is a bit of a mess given the tools we do have but DE have said on multiple occasions that they want interactive sales only where both players must be present.

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On 2020-08-08 at 1:54 PM, Jiminez_Burial said:

We don't like to hear it because DE has very clearly stated multiple times that there are a few things that will never be added to the game... ever.  1 of those things is an Auction House.  Some of us would prefer the Auction House over the current system, yet we still don't like to hear about it because it gets really annoying having people effectively ask over and over again a question where the set-in-stone answer is already known.

Which has accomplished exactly what one would expect - it's pushed players to a third party site that DE have no access to, with the game's own trading system serving merely as a pro-forma authorisation. People want convenient trading. If DE won't provide their own, then players will simply find other ways to trade. Being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn helps nobody.

 

12 minutes ago, Shalath said:

I can quote you a real world example which I have posted here several times in response to AH requests. Pirates of the Burning Sea. They shifted from a blind auction house where you could see the value of the last couple of successful bids but not the actual list prices. Sales prices typically stayed about a third above production costs. Then they switch it so you could see the listing and the -1 war started immediately driving prices down so only those with the absolute lowest production costs could sell anything. It destroyed the economy in the game in about a month and their AH is now seeded by the devs because all of the producers left the game.

This doesn't apply to Warframe, though. Warframe.market already exists and has full listings of everyone's asking price, yet that has somehow managed to not "destroy the economy." Whenever people try to explain how damaging an "auction house" would be for the game, I feel compelled to point out that it already exists right now as we speak. If it was going to bring this kind of devastation, why hasn't it already?

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4 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

This doesn't apply to Warframe, though. Warframe.market already exists and has full listings of everyone's asking price, yet that has somehow managed to not "destroy the economy." Whenever people try to explain how damaging an "auction house" would be for the game, I feel compelled to point out that it already exists right now as we speak. If it was going to bring this kind of devastation, why hasn't it already?

2 reasons;

  1. A good chunk of players don't use warframe.market because it is outside the game.
  2. It is not automated, players still have to put in the effort to meet up rather than just click. This means players are less likely to drop their prices because it takes effort.

That said the -1 war is happening on warframe.market as well to a degree, but as per point 2 they are less likely to give up that one extra plat for a quick sale because they can't just "list and forget".

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If more people like me exist, which they probably do, then it would definitely affect the market. The sole reason I don't sell anything on the market unless I know I am going to make a killing is because I don't want to wait for hours or use a third party website that I don't trust to handle my credentials (even if it is a new set of credentials as always) as well as an actual game studio or company. I am sitting on a lot of items, old and new, that the community might even be looking for, but I will not go out of my way to register on some site, wait for hours on end on a game where I only log on for dailies currently (and if I'm not, I have a better reason to be online for than to sit around waiting for people) and then haggle with each and every one because they can't accept the fact that I made a clear, well-researched decision to list my item with the exact price I wanted to sell it for that perhaps even undercuts the market average by 1 or 2 plat.

I absolutely hate haggling. This system basically forces you to deal with that. This isn't some kind of bazaar - my items have a price and that's what I'll sell them for. Don't like it? Don't complain to me about what you want, go find someone else who will inevitably not sell it much or at all cheaper than me.

 

So, if an auction house existed, I would absolutely use it and sell my items every time I get them. If more people than just me do it -- which, again, is very likely because I can't be the only one who hates this current system more than anything -- the market will inevitably be flooded with a lot more goods than there's demand for. Prices will tank considerably for everything, especially things that are currently unvaulted or new, so new people will barely have a chance to get plat without spending real money. Do I still want it? Kinda. But I'd feel really bad for new people.

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2 hours ago, Shalath said:

I can quote you a real world example which I have posted here several times in response to AH requests. Pirates of the Burning Sea. They shifted from a blind auction house where you could see the value of the last couple of successful bids but not the actual list prices. Sales prices typically stayed about a third above production costs. Then they switch it so you could see the listing and the -1 war started immediately driving prices down so only those with the absolute lowest production costs could sell anything. It destroyed the economy in the game in about a month and their AH is now seeded by the devs because all of the producers left the game.

A plat tax would not be popular with players because DE would effectively be setting the prices and it is well known that they don't really have an economy specialist. This is why some resources/items are fairly rare and we have so many of other items such as nano spores we once had a competition to see who had the most. DE setting a min/max price would be the same. It wouldn't be a free economy any more.

You will find that those games that have an AH use in-game currency that is not related to real money in any way specifically to avoid affecting their revenue streams which WF can't do unless they introduce a new currency that could be used for buy/sell. If they ever launched an AH and it went badly for them it isn't like they could just turn it off without massive player backlash so it would be a huge risk they would be crazy to even think about.

I'll be the first to admit trading is a bit of a mess given the tools we do have but DE have said on multiple occasions that they want interactive sales only where both players must be present.

I was talking about really real world examples, along the lines of Craigslist or the "not-auction" part of Ebay. Making trading easier increases both the amount of trades and the amount of active traders and helps achieve balanced price-points (which increases trust). Together these factors greatly increase trading activity. And I want to underline that I am NOT proposing an auction channel, but a passive notice board-type trading channel: the seller sets a price for part X (locking the part to the trading channel), the buyer simply accepts the price, the system immediately handles the transaction, transferring the part to buyer and the plat to the seller, or vice versa with posting a "buying" order. Totally easy, totally fair, totally safe, (very) easy to implement, the only problem being "illegal plat", but that is a problem already (and could only be handled by splitting plat into "safe plat" and "unsafe plat", depending on if it has cleared the cash-back point).

I think a lot (the majority) of players would accept a trade-tax system for the sheer functionality and the easy trading a notice board channel would provide. I would happily pay 2% (minimum 1 plat) in order to be able to click-and-sell or click-and-buy stuff (at a price set by the seller), without any need to haggle, to meet up or even for both players to be online and in-game at the same time. And for anyone not liking it, well, the old trading channels would still exist.

The effects on DE revenue from a correctly handled trading system would only be positive (compared to the current situation). Having a sucky trading system where a lot of shady trade sharks are swimming around taking advantage of more inexperienced players in no way helps DE, rather it teaches players to NOT trade. That is also the advice we give our new players ("don't trade outside the clan, the risk of making a bad trade is huge"), and as a result most avoid trading (for a long time).

To my knowledge DE has never stated that they are against improving and extending the trading system, what DE has done is defending the current (not very good) system with "player interaction" (a totally illogical argument, consider what it actually is) and stating that they will not implement an auction system (where something is sold to the highest bidder). Since every once in a while players auction stuff through the trade chat that statement could be understood to cover the responsibility part (for an auction system), more than being against the actual trading part.

Edited by Graavarg
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