(Updated) Frost and Cold rework

[Petrichor]

Hello it is me, Dregs. The Frost main who has 4,600+ hours in this game. I would like to share my opinion on what Frost could become with not too hard of a rework. And discussing cold damage and what it could be also.

I have used Frost for most of my time in Warframe, and I am going to be blunt. Frost barely works anymore once the enemy levels reach 150+. Nullifiers point their Thanos gloves at Frosts globe and say, "No". Avalanche stripping armor is nice, but not eveything is armored, and if it is, your squad most likely is stacking Corrosive Projection anyway. Stopping shield regeneration is nice too, but barely noticable. Frost HIMSELF is not tanky enough to survive 150+, and only the 4 seconds of globe immunity is his tankiness at that point. Avalanche isn't even his best ability for high levels. I find Ice Wave Impedence to be much more useful in most cases than Avalanche. Less energy, doesn't fully freeze but everything is slowed to a crawl thanks to Impedence, and lingers for a bit instead of Avalanches instant use.

Anyway, here is how I think Frost could easily become a good high level viable warframe.

Frost is supposed to be adept at killing and defense. 
I quote his description: "Frost is a slow and heavily-armored Warframe that is able to utilize offensive
    and defensive skills to both his own and his team's advantage. He commands furious blizzards
    that pummel and freeze his enemies while providing respite and solace for his allies."

It begins with cold damage and a buff I think it could use. Just like Fire and Electricity becoming pretty good solo elements now, I think Cold should too. Once an enemy has reached maxed cold procs, another cold proc will freeze that enemy for four seconds. and now let's buff the Freeze status effect. When an enemy is an icy statue, they take bonus damage from all sources. It would make sense that an enemy frozen solid would be a little more brittle. This buff alone would not only make Cold a pretty decent status by itself, but also buff Frost by quite a bit, especially Avalanche.

To recap, the Cold status effect should stack up like it does now, but any more cold stacks turn the enemy frozen for four seconds. If the enemy is still alive after four seconds, they break out of the ice and their cold procs reset. Frozen enemies take 25% bonus damage from all sources. Whether you should be able to do this to bosses? I am unsure. Probably not. Slowing them down with cold procs is enough.

So with that Cold status buff, I think Frost needs some tuning as well. In my opinion, it pains me to see a shield frame want armor. It does not make sense that Frost is a shield frame when his signature snow globe grows stronger depending on his armor. I have various fixes for this.

Let's start with Frost's passive. It needs to change, and it could fix the shield problem.

Passive idea #1: Frost's armor strengthens his shields unlike the other warframes. Melee attacks from enemies that hit Frost's shields freeze the attacker. (meaning if Frost's shields are down, no melee hits will freeze. But this guarantees a melee freeze if Frost has shields.)

Not only will this passive make him a better tank, but he will synergize well with Capacitance Volt or Hildryn. (Rakta Dark Dagger Frost OP meta build???? UNKILLABLE???????? [no but it could work])

Passive idea #2: Frost gains temporary armor for inflicting Cold. 2 armor for every cold proc inflicted, stored in a passive meter like Atlas. Freezing an enemy solid grants 10 armor as well. Frost's arm vents accelerate and chunks of ice form on him as this passive builds. Not inflicting a cold proc after a few seconds decays his stacks.

This passive would help with his tankiness, globe health, and synergize well with any high status chance weaponry you just so happen to bring along that has Cold damage on it too.

Now for his base stats. Passive #1 here would work well with current Frost. But Passive #2 would need a revise in stats, turning Frost into a health frame instead of a shield frame. Or just combine both passive ideas and leave Frost's base stats as is, so he has scaling armor and superior tanky shields above the rest.

Frost prime also needs more armor than regular Frost. 25 more base shields and that's it? Come on. at least 50 more base armor, no matter which passive would be chosen here.
(Frost prime also needs a unique body model but that's just my visuals opinion, not that important)

I also think Frost's abilities need a tune up.

FREEZE

Freeze should be a THICC projectile, not a pixel-wide needle bullet. Arca Plasmor, primary Catchmoon, something that size. And it should have punch through, so it freezes multiple enemies in a line.
Also... REMOVE THE AUTO TARGET SYSTEM IT HAS. That outdated coding has made me miss Freeze way more times than it has been useful. I want Freeze to travel in the direction I'm pointing, not auto target the butcher slapping my ass cheeks behind me or the basic binch grineer next to the Nox I'm aiming at AND TRYING TO FREEZE. (I am traumatized from my experiences)

Anyway, this buff to Freeze will make it a lot more useful. Obviously hitting terrain will still do what it does now, but I just want a bigger projectile that travels a tad slower and can freeze an entire line of enemies if I aim correctly. Maybe also make Freeze in a way that only enemies in the center of the projectile get frozen and anyone caught on the edge of the projectile receives a cold proc instead.

Freeze should also do bonus damage to an already frozen enemy.

ICE WAVE

Should inflict either slash or pucture damage as well as cold damage. Ice spikes are poking a Grineer in the nether regions, it should hurt more and cause either bleeding or reduce their damage because THEY JUST GOT STABBED IN THE NETHER REGIONS BY A HIGH VELOCITY AND FAST GROWING ICE SPIKE. They're probably busy thinking about that instead of shooting.

Ice Wave should also do multiplied damage to any frozen targets, and it's cold damage can freeze any enemies that have full stacks of cold.

Impedence should also be counted as one stack of cold if its not already.

SNOW GLOBE

It's health does not really last once enemy levels really get going, but again, the 4 seconds of invulnerability help a lot. So I don't really think Globe should be affected too much, and I think it's health should be sapped instead of dying instantly when a Nullifier bubble is touching it.

But, I do think Globe's augment should be changed, or just add a few new aguments for it. I don't remember reading a rule saying "one augment per ability".

Augment idea #1: Allies inside of the globe gain half of Frost's current armor. If they leave the globe, the armor is removed in 20 seconds. (Similar to Wisp's motes) (includes defense objectives)

Augment idea #2: On cast and once every 30 seconds, the globe pulses with power, creating a chilled wave of air in and around it. Enemies inside and 5 meters around the globe are frozen solid for 4 seconds every time this wave comes.

I think #2 should replace the current augment for Globe. I personally do not like it.

AVALANCHE

With the buff to the frozen status effect, Avalanche will become an even greater supportive tool for high level missions. Not only is an enemy helpless, but they're also taking increased damage now from everything. So I don't think Avalanche itself should change, just buff the frozen status effect. If this proves too strong for Grineer to handle, I would opt for removing the armor strip mechanic so any frozen enemy takes 25% increased damage from all sources, so Avalanche would see more use outside of Grineer missions.
 

[bonamb]

I was going to make another post on this exact subject but I thought I'd check around and see what other people had written first. I'm glad I did! Frost is also a favorite of mine, and is the frame I'd put my umbral forma on - its just that he's so outdated they'd be pretty useless on him.
I do agree with you in that frost scales h o r r i b l y right now, no matter how you build him. Half his abilities are currently useless, his passive is irrelevant, and in every situation where he should specialize, there is always a frame who will do far better than him. For example:

-Give a melee weapon to Oberon, Rhino or Inaros and they will all outmatch him in tankiness

-Doing mobile defense, defense, interception or excavation at anywhere over level 100? The only good choice is limbo. 

-Need CC? So many other frames - hell, even limbo again outmatches frost. 

-Need armour stripping? Ember. Corrosive Projection aura. Ash. Banshee. So many other options that cost less. 

The last time frosts ability set was updated was in update 17 - in 2015! Other frames have gotten their reworks but frost has been left by the wayside. When I play him in missions, I only really use one ability, maybe two if I need to freeze a whole load of people - something I don't do all that much at higher levels, especially solo because I need the energy to keep my bubble up! The first two abilities really don't do much at all at higher levels, especially with the problem with freeze like you mentioned.

Furthermore, the only synergy he has is that his first ability can remove his third ability. This is laughable compared to frames like ember, who's abilities feed into each other, or limbo who has an extremely focused set of powers, or gauss who constantly fills up his meter by using his first and third abilities, which increases the effectiveness of his second and fourth abilities. The list goes on! 

I agree with your suggestions for freeze and ice wave Dregs. because right now they're basically useless. However, I do have a couple of other ideas for most of the abilities and the passive (which is similar to yours).

The passive:

-"For every enemy in a 50m radius afflicted with a cold proc, frost gains x amount of armour." Simple, encourages active play, reinforces the fact that frost is a heavily armored frame as stated in his description! Frost as it is has a base of 300 armour, which is overshadowed by 5 other frames (not including the primes because that would be 8), and is in the same category as garuda and nidus.

It is also similar to embers passive where her power strength increases for every enemy on fire. The x could be a set amount, similar to arcane guardian - maybe added to his base armour before modifiers? Or it could be a percentage of his armour added on. It could be themed as simply lowering the temperature of his environment. Additionally, it adds health to his snowglobe when cast - synergy! 

 

Freeze: 

I left warframe for a couple of years, and when I came back I was pleased to see a charge mechanic for certain abilities - embers fireball or two of hydroids abilities for example, which increases either the duration, range or damage of the ability. Frost could benefit from this. For freeze, I would take your suggestions (alongside removing the outdated coding) of increasing the aoe and adding punch through, but i would tie the aoe (and possibly the damage) of this ability to a charge to give you a choice and to make it not too spammable. A good example of this would be the 2013 warframe trailer, where frost charges up and freezes Vor. I'd personally implement it similar to hydroids or embers so you can still run around and keep the whole ninja mobility thing up though! 

 

Snowglobe:

Again, I would implement a charge mechanic. Here there are two options. 

1) Charging it increases the range. This stops reach being a compulsory mod in every single frost build (which is a bit annoying)

2) Charging it increases either the power strength or the armour (before calculations) of the snowglobe. This means every time you want to defend something at high levels you don't have to spam it three times to get a decent amount of health, use up all your energy, and then watch the snowglobe melt away much much faster than you would like with you all out of energy and luck.

 

From what I understand I agree with your suggestion for ice wave - its currently useless - it has no synergy, does no damage and is a joke of an ability at higher levels. For avalanche, its a decent ability as it is so like you said just leave it - the only problem being I never have any energy to cast it because I've used it all on snowglobe! 

But yeah, just some more ideas and different ways to approach the problem that is frost right now! Bit of a rambly mess but hey, there's a lot of problems! 

[Shaburanigud]

I love it as well.

Though I'd like it if were more based around the cold status proc you gave.
10 cold proc stacks => frozen enemy. (Though I don't know how this should work with bosses)
May I refine?

Cold procs:
An enemy affected by a cold proc, they are slowed for 10% on movement speed and attack speed.
When an enemy gains 10 cold procs, they freeze for 4 seconds. Becoming completely immobile and unable to attack.
While Frozen, they take 100% more damage from impact and puncture damage.

Passive:
Whenever an enemy damages Frost's shield, Frost will apply 1 cold proc to all enemies within 15m. This affect can only happen once per second. 
Whenever an enemy within 15m of Frost is Frozen, Frost gains 15 extra armor for 15 seconds. This can stack up to a total 150 extra armor
(I combined both of you're passives, but toned it down a little instead)

1: Freeze
Fires a thick projectile that deals cold damage and instantly freezes the primary target it hits for 4 seconds.
It will also apply 70% of damage as radial damage and apply 3 cold procs within 5m of the blast.
- Ability Strength affects damage and number of cold procs applied within the radius.
- Ability Range affects blast range and blast radius.
- Ability Duration does not affect freeze period

2: Ice Wave
All enemies hit are impaled by ice, immobilizing them on spot for 5 seconds. (Not Frozen, can attack but can't move)
Applies 3 cold procs to all enemies within range.
Inflicts cold and puncture damage.
If a frozen enemy is hit by Ice wave or if Ice wave freezes an enemy, the enemy will take 100% extra damage and shatter, inflicting slash & cold damage to all enemies within a 5m radius. (Regardless of killing the enemy)
- Abiltiy Strength affects Ice wave Damage, Number of cold procs applied, Shatter Damage.
- Ability Range affects Ice wave range and shatter range.
- Ability Duration affects immobilization time.

3: Snow Globe
All enemies who are inside Snow globe will always have at least 1 cold proc. Snow globe will apply 1 cold proc to enemies nearby Snow globe every 5 seconds.
Whenever an enemy nearby Snow globe freezes, Snow globe heals 20% of it's health and increases it's max health by 20%.
Casting Snow Globe again inside Snow Globe will instantly heal 50% of it's health and increase it's maximum health by 100%.
May have a maximum of 1000% health.
Bullets/Attacks from Allies are no longer affected by Snow Globe.
- Ability Strength affects Snow globe's health, heal amount and max health increase amount. (Will not affect the 1000% health cap)
- Abiliity Range affects Snow globe size and Snow globe cold proc application range
- Ability Duration affects Snow globe duration
(I don't think they'll change the interaction with nullifiers as it seems to be consistent with even Gara, Khora, Limbo as well)

4: Avalanche
Get updated animation (Actually, all of Frost's skill can use an animation update)

 

This is my version of refining you're suggestion. All of it revolves around the cold proc stacking and freezing enemies.
And since freezing enemies will actually help the survivability of you're teammates, the more you freeze the stronger you get and the safer you're allies become.

Also a 1+2 combo or 4+2 combo will be sick as the shatter effect from Ice wave would be dealing massive AoE damage.

[JohnnyRocket]

Meh... Especially when messing with snowglobe, maybe add the cold proc to enemies that enter but don't mess with the health and armor of it since it can stack to 1mil HP.  

Everything is just seems meh. Avalanche and Ice wave already have augments that slow/freeze enemies and what's suggested seems like just adding that augments to the skills permanently.  in higher level missions Frosts damage drops off early about level 50ish so knowing what your build is going for is a must since Frost can go full CC with duration and efficiency freezing enemies in place for about 18 seconds.  

Armor stripping would be nice, since he is more oriented towards Corpus Cold effects shields(50%) more than alloy armor(25%). 

Frost needs a huge rework to be more relevant but I'm not fully sure what it should be.

[Petrichor]

Now that a few other concerned Frost users have given me their opinions, I think I've finished my Frost rework text file and it's looking pretty chilly. So here it is.

Final (maybe) Frost rework ideas.
But first, I want to discuss altering Cold damage and what it means to freeze an enemy solid.

Cold damage should be a better element to take by itself, just like Toxin going through shields, Heat halving armor, and Electricity sparking in an AOE once a second. When an enemy has the maximum amount of cold stacks inflicted on them, the next cold proc should freeze them solid for 5 seconds. Now let's buff the frozen statue effect. An enemy that is frozen solid takes 25% bonus damage from all physical damage sources. (Impact, Puncture, Slash.) When 5 seconds pass, the enemy breaks out of the statue, has zero cold procs, and is no longer "brittle" to physical damage.

I have used Frost for over half of my entire Warframe career. 4600 hours + and counting. Frost barely works in high level content, period. He does not have the raw stats to survive level 150+ damage, and neither does his Globes. Slowing and freezing enemies can only take the trench coat frame so far. But not only are his abilities not that great for high levels, Frost himself is an entire wreck. Not only does he not have any ability synergy, (besides Freeze destroying a globe, but like, come on.) Frost's STATS are a mess. He's a shield frame that wants armor? Why? I'm pretty sure besides Rhino, no other frame has such a stat kit that doesn't synergize with itself.

Turn Frost into a health frame. It only makes sense.

Revised stats:  Regular Frost                         Frost Prime
                         300 Armor                              400 Armor
                         200 Energy                            200 Energy  
                         400 Health                             450 Health
                         300 Shields                            325 Shields 

If turning him into a health frame is out of the question, let him become unique in that his armor bolsters his shields instead of his shields having 25% base damage reduction using his new passive.

Frost prime also needs a buff. More max energy and armor please. Right now, Frost prime only has 25 more base shields than regular Frost. Kinda limp. Kinda sad. Especially when armor does nothing for shields.
(Frost prime also could use a unique body model but that's just my visual tastes, not as important as all this.)

I quote his description: "Frost is a slow and heavily-armored Warframe that is able to utilize offensive
    and defensive skills to both his own and his team's advantage. He commands furious blizzards
    that pummel and freeze his enemies while providing respite and solace for his allies."

PASSIVE:

Frost's current passive is bad, hardly noticable, useless, etc... But it can and should be changed to turn Frost into a really good tank for high level content.

If Frost can turn into a health frame,
Passive idea #1: Frost gains armor when enemies are hit with Cold damage or frozen solid. 2 armor for every cold proc, and 10 armor for every frozen enemy. Stacks into a meter like Atlas' armor and decays just like Atlas' armor. Stacks to a 1000 armor cap because we don't want ice boi to out-tank rock boi. Stacks do not decay if Frost is currently standing in cold terrain that he created.

If Frost cannot turn into a health frame,
Passive idea #2: Frost's armor bolsters his shields just like his health. Frost thrives in his own cold environments created with his abilities; gaining 200 armor, regenerating 2% max HP per second and doubling his shield recharge rate while standing in a cold area he created.

If the first passive is a bit too much like Atlas, idea #2 I think is unique enough to be added in #1's stead. Both options here would make Frost's passive so much better while also making him a way better tank.

Now for his abilities. All of them could do with some sort of tuning at least.

FREEZE:

Freeze needs some major mechanic changes. AT THE VERY LEAST, remove the auto targeting coding. It is outdated and makes me miss my targets way more often than it helps.
Next, Freeze would be better off being a large projectile with punch through like an Arca Plasmor shot or a Catchmoon shot. Enemies up to 15 meters away will be frozen solid, any further away and they receive only a cold proc. The icy terrain created by this ability when striking the ground will count towards either of Frost's new passives above.

Also, combining Freeze and Ice Wave would be beneficial. Just tap 1 for Freeze and hold 1 for Ice Wave. Simple. Either return Ice Wave to just being a straight line of 5 meters across for the entire travel distance and make it 25 energy, or leave it as the cone it is now and leave that at 50 energy.

Freeze's damage should be quadrupled against an enemy that is already frozen.

ICE WAVE:

Whether it gets combined with Freeze or not, Ice Wave should also inflict a decent slash proc on any enemy struck.

Ice Wave damage should be quadrupled against an enemy that is already frozen.

Ice Wave Impedence should become part of the ability. Reduce the slow % and duration of the terrain if you must, but please. Impedence should be part of the ability. Make the augment freezing enemy legs in place so melee's are stuck and gunners cannot strafe for the duration of the terrain, and any enemy that walks into the terrain becomes stuck as well, for the remaining terrain duration. This terrain counts towards Frost's passive ideas up top.

NEW SECOND ABILITY???:
If Ice Wave gets combined with Freeze, Frost should receive a similar ability to Ember's Immolation.

Frost toggles his ice vents into overdrive, slowly freezing himself in a protective barrier of ice. Gains ramping damage reduction, up to 90%, but also reduces his movement speed and parkour velocity. Ice shards whirl around him as he becomes a living blizzard, doing damage to enemies around him based on their max HP, also ramping up from 1% - 5% as he gets colder.

Similar meter to Ember's as well, with Frost's abilities also speeding up or slowing down the progression of this ability. Energy will start draining rapidly at maximum as well.

Once it reaches max, Frost is basically wearing a Hobbled Dragon Key that also affects parkour, doing 5% of an enemy's max HP as cold damage in a 5 meter radius around him per second, has 90% damage reduction, and his passive, whether it's 1 or 2, is constantly stacking him armor or constantly giving him his buffs while this new ability 2 is toggled on.

SNOW GLOBE:

I'm going to be blunt. I miss Globe being duration based instead of health based. I know it's a stretch to go back to something like that, but a duration globe was so much better for high level content back in the day compared to a globe with HP. But hopefully if Frost has ways of getting lots of temporary armor with a rework, his globes can survive longer in higher levels. I also have ability synergy ideas that will help with that. Synergies will be at the end of this post.

Since I highly doubt globes will ever go back to duration, Nullifiers should not be able to instantly destroy a globe. The Nullifier bubble should drain Frost's Globe quickly of HP, just like Nidus gets stacks drained over time or Wukong's twin getting drained over time. At least give Frost players a better chance to deal with a melee Nullifier B-lining the defense objective.

Frost's Globe would count as cold terrain for his passive ideas up there. ^^^

Completely change Snow Globe's augment. It's dull and only has a 50% chance to do anything?... Pass.

Snow Globe augment idea #1: All allies inside of Frost's Globe or touching it receive half of Frost's current armor (passive idea #1) or half of his buff passive (passive idea #2) for 20 seconds or as long as they stay in Frost's cold terrain. ("Infinite" duration if standing in the terrain, goes on 20 second cooldown when leaving cold terrain, just like Wisp Reservoirs.)

Snow Globe augment idea #2: Snow Globe emits a pulse that freezes all enemies inside and 2 meters around it for 5 seconds; once after it's invulnerability ends, and then once every 30 seconds.

Both of these augments would make Frost much more desirable for defense rather than Gara or Limbo. (especially Limbo.)

AVALANCHE:

With the buff to the Frozen status effect making frozen enemies more susceptible to physical damage, I think Avalanche's armor reduction should just flat out be removed. There's way more efficient options for armor stripping anyways.

Avalanche should also leave behind a frozen terrain after use for somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds, just so it's a bit more useful longer term instead of just affecting enemies in the immediate vicinity and then nothing else.

If the new second ability in this post does not get added, Avalanche should receive the blizzard that does %HP enemy damage. Either just give Frost the AOE around him after casting Avalanche, (It's damage % being based on how many enemies were frozen solid maybe?), or hold 4 to give Frost the AOE as a damage substitute for Avalanche's supportive instant freezing.

Avalanche should do quadruple damage to any enemies that are already frozen.
The blizzard should also do quadruple damage to any ice statues.

SYNERGIES:

I have already stated that Frost's damaging abilities should do increased damage to already frozen targets, but I have some far more interesting ideas for ability synergies.

Ice Wave + Snow Globe:
If Frost uses Ice Wave and it touches a Snow Globe, that Globe will grow spikes on the outside of it for the rest of it's life. Spikes are not visible inside the globe. Any enemy that touches or runs inside of the globe will receive puncture damage with a 100% status chance. So anyone who dares enter will not only be slowed naturally, but also do decreased damage thanks to the puncture proc. This will also give the globe 10% non-stackable damage reduction.

Avalanche + Snow Globe:
If Frost casts Avalanche and a Snow Globe is in Avalanche's radius, the Globe will receive 25% non-stackable damage reduction.

With these two synergies combined, not only will Globes be much tankier with 35% damage reduction, but enemies who get too close or even inside will do less damage thanks to puncture damage for a few seconds.
 

[Saravind]

seems decent to me

i have always wanted his augment for snowglobe to just add ice dmg to those inside the globe basically what his ones augment does.... but make it so ice dmg wont combo into a element so basically just extra ice tagged on the end of dmg

i always kinda wished his icewave knocked enemies into the air with the spikes raising out the ground and then they slam on ground for a little extra dmg

 

but yeah frost prime needs some love... normal frost is still my most used frame by a long margin and i been using frost prime exclusively for last year or so

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I like it but I think the numbers might be a bit high, but DE will usually do what they want with numbers anyway so it's only the concept that matters.

For the synergies, rather than both giving damage reduction how about making them give two separate things that add well together? For example, Ice Wave gives non-stackable 20% damage reduction, while Avalanche adds on a stackable 1,000 health to the Snow Globe (since the cost of Avalanche makes it prohibitive to spam infinite health).

[Petrichor]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

For the synergies, rather than both giving damage reduction how about making them give two separate things that add well together? For example, Ice Wave gives non-stackable 20% damage reduction, while Avalanche adds on a stackable 1,000 health to the Snow Globe (since the cost of Avalanche makes it prohibitive to spam infinite health).

I would prefer if Avalanche healed maybe 10-15-20% of the Globe's current max HP instead of a flat 1000. Just 1000 HP seems a bit useless when I could just recast Globe to stack on another 6000-10000 HP for half the energy of Avalanche.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 minute ago, -Dregs- said:

I would prefer if Avalanche healed maybe 10-15-20% of the Globe's current max HP instead of a flat 1000. Just 1000 HP seems a bit useless when I could just recast Globe to stack on another 6000-10000 HP for half the energy of Avalanche.

That's fine. Like i said, the numbers don't matter since DE will balance those however they want. 

[Shaburanigud]

40 minutes ago, -Dregs- said:

I would prefer if Avalanche healed maybe 10-15-20% of the Globe's current max HP instead of a flat 1000. Just 1000 HP seems a bit useless when I could just recast Globe to stack on another 6000-10000 HP for half the energy of Avalanche.

I'd just wish it would heal everytime an enemy nearby freezed.

Building his whole playstyle and kit based on that would give a unique experience.

[bonamb]

I completely agree that Frost should become an armour / health based frame. His shields at higher levels are essentially useless. I'm unsure about idea of a passive where armour applies to shields, as I use a very tanky umbral frost build with all three umbral mods on and having to bend over backwards to put a shield mod on would be a pain, as you can see below. It is a good idea though, if implemented right. Additionally, the fact that hes currently got high shields but his signature ability uses armour? Weird. 

Another idea for a passive I have is related to your cold status upgrade idea. Instead of reworking the meta and provoking balance issues, you could relate it specifically to frost. I.e. "Frost does an additional 25% / 50% damage to enemies afflicted with the cold status effect." Choose one of those two numbers or just tie it into strength and boom cold does things! This would ideally apply to both his weapons and his abilities. Just an idea! 

Spoiler

First / Second Ability

For combining Freeze and Ice Wave? YES. Ice wave on its own as is is an utterly useless ability. Even with the buff to cold status like you suggested its pretty meh. I kinda remember something similar happening in limbos rework, where they shunted abilities together and put his second as his passive? Don't hold me to that, its been a long time! But yeah. Tap to shoot, hold to throw a blizzard. 

Maybe if Ice Wave the ability did something like deal true damage (probably a bit much) or literally do anything at all at higher levels while not costing 50 energy??? It'd be worth it, but right now on the 25th Ice Wave is going to be instantly removed for either a tanking ability (chromas aura) or a life steal ability (pocket sand).

New Second Ability

This is great. It offers frost much needed tankiness, and it also has a downside. I'm not sure energy should start draining at maximum, as thats embers downside to being at 90% where she's "burning" through her energy. Additionally, you are more likely to play ember like a caster due to her more offensive-based ability set, so you are more likely to have an energy mod on. I believe the slow is a good enough downside as being slower makes you easier to hit and makes it somewhat harder to get around. If my energy drained like embers did? This wouldn't be an ability I'd use, as I mentioned before I very rarely have enough energy past bubble and the occasional avalanche, even with running zenurik and sometimes rage on my builds.

With those tweaks, this would absoloutly be an ability I'd use as I love being able to go around with a heavy weapon as frost, and tanking a whole lot of damage would make that even better, especially with a flexible ability like this. Really leans into the whole frost being a heavily armoured, defensive frame. 

However, I do worry that this ability may be a bit much, especially on top of everything else. Whatever the case, I'm fairly sure this thread has turned into a collection of ideas DE could potentially use.

Snowglobe

I do prefer the globe being health based over duration, as its tied directly into his armour and power strength - something which helps a tanky ass frost like myself. Plus, its useful to continually be able to stack health 25,000 at a time. Even at high levels, nothings getting through that. (I still think we should be able to hold down the ability like hydroids tentacle swarm and increase the range!!!).

Additionally: As long as the globe is health based, could we please see its total health at the top of the screen. A QoL improvement, the difference between 100% bubble and 40% bubble really means very little, especially when you get past level 100 or fight sentients. However, 25,000 and 250,000 is a huge difference. Also its nice to see big numbers!

Avalanche

I like the armour strip personally. Yes, its not that useful against anything but grineer, but goddamn I need it to actually damage grineer, as with over 250 power strength any grineer is massively weakened and I'm actually able to kill them with anything but a melee weapon - as it is frost has 0 damage increasing abilities. Maybe with the buff it'd be useful, or with the passive I suggested - however the latter kinda steps away from the whole warframe teamwork ethos and the former has the aforementioned balance issues. 

On 2020-08-12 at 5:06 PM, -Dregs- said:

Ice Wave + Snow Globe:
If Frost uses Ice Wave and it touches a Snow Globe, that Globe will grow spikes on the outside of it for the rest of it's life. Spikes are not visible inside the globe. Any enemy that touches or runs inside of the globe will receive puncture damage with a 100% status chance. So anyone who dares enter will not only be slowed naturally, but also do decreased damage thanks to the puncture proc. This will also give the globe 10% non-stackable damage reduction.

Avalanche + Snow Globe:
If Frost casts Avalanche and a Snow Globe is in Avalanche's radius, the Globe will receive 25% non-stackable damage reduction.

This is good - I like the fact that his abilities are actually working together and it sorta feels like you're freezing over the area. One minor note though - those spikes might be somewhat demanding on PCs with lower specs. 

As an alternative to the damage reduction perhaps ice wave could increase the slow within the bubble, or avalanche could essentially cause it to gain its (useless in a mod slot) augment for a period of time - where 50% of enemies entering get frozen - frozen like in avalanche! Just straight damage reduction, however useful, could seem a little boring, and having these abilities on timers prompts frost to keep using them to, ah, keep the area cool.

 

Finally, visually, yes frost / frost prime could absolutely use an updated model. His deluxe is alright but tennogen can only go so far with that little bow tie and whatever his legs are doing?? He is so very old compared to some of the newer primes - him and his prime being released in 2013!!! The other primes from that time are ember and mag, and they are both decent due to having a decent base model but cmon. Bow tie? Literally the only differences between him and his prime are the fact his prime has a different helmet and removable arm armour. Fashionframing a frost is h a r d compared to something like excalibur, ash, mesa prime or many many others, and you are quite restricted in what you can do. 

 

I'm essentially brainstorming as I go here, but hopefully there are some decent feedback / suggestions in here! 

[spacerocks]

Frost is my favorite warframe, and I was waiting until the reveal of what abilities we were going to be able to subsume from helminth were. That said, I would like to add to this discussion with my own thoughts.

First, I want to comment on the current state of cold damage. Overall, I agree that it is in a lesser spot. However, I think allowing it to freeze enemies after a 10th status ailment would be too over powered. You could take some of the arcing weapons like atomos/kuva nukor/ampress or weapons like ignis/toroid and it would be way over powered due to how easy it would be to lock down the entire map on any level of difficulty. I think cold damage is in a decent enough spot now where it can be left alone.

That said, I do want to focus on Frost's abilities as a whole, specifically the passive, freeze, and icewave. Frost is in what I would consider to be a very strange place. Not only was he one of the first warframes to be added into the game after the original 8, he was one of the first to get a rework and a passive.

Starting with Frost's role as a warframe, I agree that he is supposed to be a frame that can be used for both offense and defense, and his passive should reflect that. While I really like the gaining of armor when inflicting a cold proc, I think it would be better to give him something more unique, and not a riff on another warframe's passive. In my opinion, Frost should have a unique interaction with the cold and frozen status ailments. Taking what you had said about additional cold status ailments after 10, I believe frost should be the only one to be able to do that. Additionally, when Frost inflicts additional cold status ailments on a frozen enemy, armor shards are broken off (similar to how mag strips armor off with polarize). This would be completely unique to Frost, while still adhering to the theme of cold offensive/defensive warrior.

Moving forward to the abilities, freeze is the biggest offender. It seems we are all on the same page that freeze is horrible. It is a 25 energy snowglobe remover. That's really it. With how easy it is to get energy now, why would you freeze a single target when you can use snowglobe or avalanche? I would prefer to see freeze removed entirely, with Frost gaining a new ability in either the first or second slot (which unfortunately I do not have the creative mind to create a new ability for him at the time). In the event that freeze is removed, move the ability to remove snowglobes to a hold down of the snowglobe ability. If held down while inside the snowglobe, frost obtains a percentage (lets say 10%) of the remaining health of the snowglobe as an "iron skin" like armor (like what icy avalanche gives). If freeze is not removed, I would like to see it changed to have a charge mechanic (though admittedly, I am not sure how this would interact with the current augment). While the tap ability would remain as it is, the new charge would see frost create an icicle or ice spear which would then freeze and punchthrough enemies in its trajectory. If a charged freeze hits a snowglobe, I would like to see a more unique effect. Either making the globe deal small amounts of cold damage to any enemies within, spikes on the outside of the globe, or keep allow it to destroy the snowglobe but it instead explodes outwardly with these charged freeze projectiles.

EDIT: While I was typing this, I reread that Dregs and bonamb had mentioned the ice of combining freeze and icewave. I think that would be an excellent idea, with freeze being the tap, and icewave being the hold. I still think freeze should be removed entirely, but it would be a good solution.

Next up is icewave. Assuming freeze is removed, that would allow for Frost to gain a new ability. I would like to see the new ability in the second slot, with icewave becoming the Frost's first ability. Whether icewave is in the first or second slot, it still needs a cost reduction. In the first slot I would want it to be either 20-25 energy, and if it remains in the second slot then it should be brought down to 30-35 energy. 50 energy to cast icewave is too much. It is not worth anywhere near the same amount as a snowglobe. That said, icewave does need to be adjusted as an ability too. As of right now, icewave deal a small amount of cold damage to those affected by it as well as inflicts enemies with 6 cold status ailments. This needs to be changed. With exception of the addition of a slash status ailment, I completely agree with what has already been said. It should stop enemies hit by it in their tracks (not frozen, just immobilized) as well as have the augment baked into the ability. Furthermore, it needs some synergy with other abilities. The only synergies I can think of at the moment would be adding damage to the snowglobe in some fashion and refreshing the freeze on avalanche.

I think snowglobe is in a good place as a non-duration based ability, taking the armor and power strength to determine the health, as well as the invulnerability period. However, it is sorely lacking in synergy with other abilities. I already mentioned this with freeze and icewave, but there needs to be some synergy beyond "destroy globe".

I also think avalanche is in a fairly good spot overall. It's a shame that the armor stripping from avalanche is only in effect while the enemies are frozen by that avalanche, but that's my only thought on it at the moment.

If Frost is to gain a new ability, I think it should be either a first or second ability. Snowglobe and avalanche are certainly in the right places in his ability line up, and I think they should remain there. With the addition of steel path, the need to strip armor is now essential, and Frost should have something in his tool kit that can perform that better than what avalanche can currently provide.

I am not going to touch his model or skins, as I want to mainly focus on his abilities and stats as a warframe. I would really prefer to see freeze removed from the game and a new second slot ability to be given.

[Shaburanigud]

15 minutes ago, spacerocks said:

First, I want to comment on the current state of cold damage. Overall, I agree that it is in a lesser spot. However, I think allowing it to freeze enemies after a 10th status ailment would be too over powered. You could take some of the arcing weapons like atomos/kuva nukor/ampress or weapons like ignis/toroid and it would be way over powered due to how easy it would be to lock down the entire map on any level of difficulty. I think cold damage is in a decent enough spot now where it can be left alone.

Hmm how about we tweak it that whenever the enemy is attacked, the "Frozen state" is broken?
Freeze will only go on for 6 seconds as long as you don't attack them again while they are frozen.

Along to compensate that, I wouldn't mind a "Frozen enemy" is categorized as it's own thing.
+50% resistance against viral, magnetic, slash, electric, toxin, gas damage
-75% resistance against Impact, Puncture, Fire, Blast, Cold, Radiation damage.

[spacerocks]

4 minutes ago, Shaburanigud said:

Hmm how about we tweak it that whenever the enemy is attacked, the "Frozen state" is broken?
Freeze will only go on for 6 seconds as long as you don't attack them again while they are frozen.

Along to compensate that, I wouldn't mind a "Frozen enemy" is categorized as it's own thing.
+50% resistance against viral, magnetic, slash, electric, toxin, gas damage
-75% resistance against Impact, Puncture, Fire, Blast, Cold, Radiation damage.

I still don't that would be good. It effectively would be the same thing. You freeze an enemy at 10 cold stacks, and continue attacking them. Assuming that you do not lose the cold stacks, all you are really doing here is refreshing the duration of the frozen status. Nothing would happen. If the enemy is frozen at the cost of the cold stacks, you would effectively just have the enemy or group of enemies just stuttering. They would continue to be frozen and unfrozen again and again.

As for a damage buff against a frozen enemy, I could be wrong but I thought they already took increased damage while frozen (this could be a misconception of mine). As it stands right now, enemies cannot regain shields for as long as they are frozen. If I were to add anything to the frozen status effect, I would add armor stripping similar to mag's polarize as I stated. I think it makes sense that you are chipping away the enemies armor while it is frozen, and for those frozen pieces to be on the ground to be picked up by a mag's magnetize, atlas's rubble armor, or gara's splinter storm.

I really think that freezing enemies with cold procs should be exclusive to Frost alone, and not something any frame or weapon can do. As it stands right now, the only way to freeze enemies is with freeze, snowglobe, avalanche, and gauss's thermal sunder.

[Shaburanigud]

56 minutes ago, spacerocks said:

I still don't that would be good. It effectively would be the same thing. You freeze an enemy at 10 cold stacks, and continue attacking them. Assuming that you do not lose the cold stacks, all you are really doing here is refreshing the duration of the frozen status. Nothing would happen. If the enemy is frozen at the cost of the cold stacks, you would effectively just have the enemy or group of enemies just stuttering. They would continue to be frozen and unfrozen again and again.

As for a damage buff against a frozen enemy, I could be wrong but I thought they already took increased damage while frozen (this could be a misconception of mine). As it stands right now, enemies cannot regain shields for as long as they are frozen. If I were to add anything to the frozen status effect, I would add armor stripping similar to mag's polarize as I stated. I think it makes sense that you are chipping away the enemies armor while it is frozen, and for those frozen pieces to be on the ground to be picked up by a mag's magnetize, atlas's rubble armor, or gara's splinter storm.

I really think that freezing enemies with cold procs should be exclusive to Frost alone, and not something any frame or weapon can do. As it stands right now, the only way to freeze enemies is with freeze, snowglobe, avalanche, and gauss's thermal sunder.

I was thinking that the Freeze part should never be too strong, but Frost should have a unique interaction that makes it broken only to him.

 

I was thinking whenever Frost freezes an enemy, he gains extra armor up to 100.
Whenever he breaks frozen enemies, the Ice will explode with shard dealing Cold and Slash damage to nearby enemies.
Only Frost's abilities will be able to Perma-freeze(as in enemies won't break from frozen even after they are hit again), thus making the Frozen Debuff half permanent while in Frost hands. Not to mention his abilities should interact with frozen enemies more uniquely.

Thus while cold has become stronger, to Frost is should be what he is.

I suggest this because the current bonuses against Frozen enemies Frost has is kind of mediocre, so I would rather see that  partially shared with everyone so Frost gets something even more unique and powerful, while we also get some extra diversity among builds.
(Lets face it, The viral+crit Meta is kinda terrible. And while nerfing Viral would help, we need to buff the weaker status' as well to make diversity happen)

[Petrichor]

On 2020-08-13 at 1:53 PM, bonamb said:

Another idea for a passive I have is related to your cold status upgrade idea. Instead of reworking the meta and provoking balance issues, you could relate it specifically to frost. I.e. "Frost does an additional 25% / 50% damage to enemies afflicted with the cold status effect." Choose one of those two numbers or just tie it into strength and boom cold does things! This would ideally apply to both his weapons and his abilities. Just an idea! 

I wouldn't mind that as a passive if my "new second ability" would be paired with it as a rework. (I also agree heavily reducing mobility is enough downside, no energy drain required.)
Better yet, just make it "Frost does 25% bonus damage to enemies inflicted with cold. Frost does 50% bonus damage to enemies frozen solid."

 

 

On 2020-08-13 at 1:53 PM, bonamb said:

Ice wave on its own as is is an utterly useless ability. Even with the buff to cold status like you suggested its pretty meh.

I actually find a great use for Ice Wave Impedence. It's great for lich hunting. SInce the lich cannot be frozen solid, but I still do everything with Frost, Impedence heavily slows down liches to where they're barely a threat unless they have teleport.

 

 

On 2020-08-13 at 1:53 PM, bonamb said:

New Second Ability

This is great. It offers frost much needed tankiness, and it also has a downside. I'm not sure energy should start draining at maximum, as thats embers downside to being at 90% where she's "burning" through her energy. Additionally, you are more likely to play ember like a caster due to her more offensive-based ability set, so you are more likely to have an energy mod on. I believe the slow is a good enough downside as being slower makes you easier to hit and makes it somewhat harder to get around. If my energy drained like embers did? This wouldn't be an ability I'd use, as I mentioned before I very rarely have enough energy past bubble and the occasional avalanche, even with running zenurik and sometimes rage on my builds.

With those tweaks, this would absoloutly be an ability I'd use as I love being able to go around with a heavy weapon as frost, and tanking a whole lot of damage would make that even better, especially with a flexible ability like this. Really leans into the whole frost being a heavily armoured, defensive frame.

Again I agree a mobility cut like a hobbled dragon key that also effects bullet jumps is enough of a downside to not need energy draining when it's maxed. I also thought of some synergies with my new second ability idea. 

Ice Wave on cast would cover Frost in spikes for a few seconds if his second ability is active. Enemies that get too close take the same puncture damage they would if they made contact with a Snow Globe with spikes on it.

Avalanche would double the range of the %hp damage blizzard swirling around Frost for a few seconds.

 

 

On 2020-08-13 at 1:53 PM, bonamb said:

I do prefer the globe being health based over duration, as its tied directly into his armour and power strength - something which helps a tanky ass frost like myself. Plus, its useful to continually be able to stack health 25,000 at a time. Even at high levels, nothings getting through that.

Call me a boomer Frost main if you want but I will always miss duration globe. ;~;
Also haha Nullifier bubble go snap when you're not looking.

 

On 2020-08-13 at 2:17 PM, spacerocks said:

First, I want to comment on the current state of cold damage. Overall, I agree that it is in a lesser spot. However, I think allowing it to freeze enemies after a 10th status ailment would be too over powered. You could take some of the arcing weapons like atomos/kuva nukor/ampress or weapons like ignis/toroid and it would be way over powered due to how easy it would be to lock down the entire map on any level of difficulty. I think cold damage is in a decent enough spot now where it can be left alone.

While yes cold procs heavily decrease the DPS of enemies, I still think players and Frost players especially should get some kind of reward for taking cold on weapons / inflicting cold with abilities. Maybe not frozen solid but some kind of new status called "Brittle" where when an enemy has maxed cold procs, those procs are consumed and the enemy gains one proc of Brittle. They are not slowed anymore or are less slowed but are more vulnerable to physical damage. If cold is reapplied fast enough you could get another Brittle proc etc... Or maybe just make the slow % less while any enemy with a cold proc is slightly more susceptible to physical damage. Disregard this if Frost's passive actually becomes "Frost do more deeps to cold bois".