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12 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Ok, but how does all that effect reload speed and dispensary?

How do you think? They're a part of the game as well.

The playerbase have snapped this game like a twig. Dispensary, once properly modded, offers healing, armour (through health conversion) ammunition and energy, effectively granting players the ability to completely negate resource costs at will (on top of Protea's other ability to negate resource cost at will! Letting her negate the cost of negating costs!). Yet it's considered underpowered by some.

For reference, a very similar ability in Team Fortress 2, even in it's PvE horde game setting, still requires a hefty resource investment (which cannot be replenished by the item in question upon deployment, unlike Dispensary which can do so multiple times over) as well as a time investment, even when the player themselves is upgraded, of around half a minute to bring to its complete form, during which you are rendered completely unable to defend yourself - although alternately, you can expend what is effectively an ultimate (although this in turn has an opportunity cost as it robs of the other potential ultimate options available, including one that recovers the resource cost) - and this is on top of having to manage several other abilities as well and the ability being ephemeral as it can be destroyed very easily and quickly. Simply put - even in an environment otherwise similar to Warframe, an ability like Dispensary is treated as one which is of immense, game changing effect. In Warframe, it's not only substantially more powerful, but still not powerful enough, apprently.

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On 2020-08-12 at 12:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.

with all due respect as far as my personal experience goes Mastery rank 8 is way too low too set this bar. You said this was for experienced players however from my time being an mr 8 to now helping them I'm almost certain that MR 8 is nowhere near the "Experienced player" level that you are talking about and most can still be considred late stages of newbie beginning of intermediate player. If anything I at least personally fell like the minimum bar line should be around MR12 and the ideal imo was the original 15. Of course this also comes from a place of feeling like this is removing another possible reason to feel like I went up to MR23 before it even is in game. This just feels like its still catering to new players while trying to seem like it's to please vets.

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2 minutes ago, kaotis said:

No offense, but you telling us before or us right clicking a syndicate and seeing requirements... is not what common people would consider spoiler...

And you haven't set our expectations at all ... rank 1 could be 500k standing for all we know, part 2 of your post doesn't tell us much a part from: "segment in rank 3 gg gl have fun". Not even how the mecha system will actually work (if we are talking about the syndicate systems this part is important to talk about).

It seems implied that it *might* work... exactly like every other syndicate.  So you can hit rank 1 in less than an hour, rank 2 the next day if you're high MR, and rank 3 I *think* usually requires 50,000 points.  Which means a minimum of five days straight grinding even for very high MR players.  There's something like nine other syndicates in the game (six factions, two in Plains, two "real" factions in Orb Valis and two miscellaneous.)  The only faction that doesn't work basically exactly like the others is Vent Kids - I think it started out as a full faction, but then they scaled it back when whatever system they were going to tie it into wasn't working in time.  It would be pretty surprising if they suddenly decided to boost the rank up costs of this one new syndicate by 100 times every other.

I would assume the Necramechs work like Zaws, kitguns and Moa pets.  There will be a vendor who sells parts.  The parts unlock based on tier with the syndicate, with the "better" parts being mostly locked behind higher tiers.  And the vendor will also most likely offer a "Daily deal" Necramech, randomly assembled from all the available parts and pre-gilded, which is available for platinum.  (For people who just want one to play around with and don't want to grind, or just want one right now, or who only care about the Mastery and then jamming it on a shelf in the back of their Orbiter.)

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

How do you think? They're a part of the game as well.

The playerbase have snapped this game like a twig. Dispensary, once properly modded, offers healing, armour (through health conversion) ammunition and energy, effectively granting players the ability to completely negate resource costs at will (on top of Protea's other ability to negate resource cost at will! Letting her negate the cost of negating costs!). Yet it's considered underpowered by some.

For reference, a very similar ability in Team Fortress 2, even in it's PvE horde game setting, still requires a hefty resource investment (which cannot be replenished by the item in question upon deployment, unlike Dispensary which can do so multiple times over) as well as a time investment, even when the player themselves is upgraded, of around half a minute to bring to its complete form, during which you are rendered completely unable to defend yourself - although alternately, you can expend what is effectively an ultimate (although this in turn has an opportunity cost as it robs of the other potential ultimate options available, including one that recovers the resource cost) - and this is on top of having to manage several other abilities as well and the ability being ephemeral as it can be destroyed very easily and quickly. Simply put - even in an environment otherwise similar to Warframe, an ability like Dispensary is treated as one which is of immense, game changing effect. In Warframe, it's not only substantially more powerful, but still not powerful enough, apprently.

If you want to say it should be like tf2 then make it permanent until destroyed. I'd be with with that.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

Ideally you could make a progression instead of a hard limit, where low MR only get access to some Helminth abilities, then higher ranks get more and finally - access to warframe sacrificing - that would let everyone enjoy the new functionality with no blocks, have a progress and the new players would gradually learn it.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)NeunDrachen said:

And yer posting in general rather than feedback or in that topic because?

If you can find someone who can easily digest 100 pages within an hour, be my guest.

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Just now, Zahnny said:

If you want to say it should be like tf2 then make it permanent until destroyed. I'd be with with that.

Thank you for proving my point.

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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

Maybe their Disposition will go up 🙂 

That is actually a great idea; Popular abilities will get worse and worse over time, until they are not worth spending energy on. Then we'll need the option to buy new abilities with platinum. I am having fun just thinking about it!

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3 minutes ago, saghzs said:

Rather than nerfing the obvious go to choices, why not buff the other ones.

How would one make Excalibur's Radial Blind or Loki's Decoy comparable in power to Roar?

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23 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

no, you have no clue whatsoever, i bet you test builds against lvl 150 instead lvl 1k+

You realise that if you need to use her armour strip to get it to kill, it’s a bad ability right? Once the armour is stripped, literally anything would kill them. A Specter would do the same job 

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Just now, Zahnny said:

I agree with you and you're still acting that way? Talk about a sore winner.

Because you ignored the points like 'dispensary would be considered grossly overpowered in most games, yet in this game people ask for it to be buffed'... and responded by saying you wanted for it to be buffed.

 

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I have held off commenting on this in hoping the Devs wouldn't give in to make the effectivity of the powers decrease. This is not a matter of overwhelming choice based on potential, it is because these abilities were not made with synergies in mind for the parent frame. If synergy combo's existed that gave benefit in usage with sister powers, they would be lacking that benefit when on other frames. (Which is compounded in the "signature exclusion" meaning a synergy with the chosen powers are going to be less common).

8 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped


Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

1. Roar: While the dev team may not wish to decrease the potential of abilities, I believe that Rhino's Roar being strong is the issue, it is that it increases ability strength that makes it the overwhelming choice. It would be better if it did not increase ability damage outside of Rhino and keeping the damage buff the same to weapons.

Reason: Rhino having a synergy with Roar to increase ability strength only on himself, it is unique to itself and would limit the potential on other frames.

2. Eclipse: This ability should be dependent on energy color and at 50% strength without Hall of Mirrors clones providing a link bonus for the other 50%.

Reason: Mirage's clones synergize with Eclipse (and they should gain the benefits of eclipse as a side buff) and giving double potential to Eclipse would create a linked synergy.

3. Warcry: This would have been better suited to be Paralysis since Warcry is her signature-est ability aside from her 4. However, with Warcry in mind, Valkyr's base ability should be an aura of slowness that isn't simply on cast radial debuff. The aura of slowness should be signature synergy to her and not given to other frames.

Reason: This course would remove a capability of the ability that would only be present and synergize with Hysteria.

4. Dispenser: This ability is relatively new and is going to be talked about more due to that reason. However, The extra energy orb bonus should be removed instead of reduced duration.

Reason: This course of action would take away from strength in this ability and incentivise it to be used on low strength frames and it would be different from Protea in that it would produce only Energy Orbs since other frames are not Engineers to be given something for every situation.

5. Larva: Reducing the radius could work in concept, but it's purpose is synergy to any central damage source (essential to Nidus). The radius isn't going to change what it does, being what people want, over other things, from a potential perspective. Thinking about the possible solutions, there isn't much you can do, there will always be a best and a worst, reduce duration sure, but it won't change much unless it is reduced to the point that it doesn't serve its' purpose.

Reason: I believe Larva's potential to outweigh other abilities is caused by the alternative options being too weak.

6. Defy: Honestly, Armor cap of 1500 on base wukong is still really low when considering base armor and arcanes. I don't believe this needs a reduction, you could even increase it to 3k for only wukong and 1.5k for other frames.

Reason: Defy's clunky feel and style for the minimal reward to energy cost ratio make it an "ok" choice that shouldn't even be on this list.

There you go, I spoke my mind, do as you will DE, I'll love your game either way.

Edit: Side note: I also believe the MR cap for Rivens should be MR 14-16, removing the MR requirement per riven. My opinion as an MR 29, the cap for the Helminth system should be at least MR 12-16 due to most players not having many resources till MR 20 commonly. Another reason that players should not access the system is that players should have access to majority of the frames before being able to use it. I didn't finish every base frame in the game till I was MR 23, but I'm not asking it be that high, I believe fully that it should be 12-16, 15 wasn't such a bad thing. Being higher gives people goals, without goals, people stop playing the game, and this system is extremely far into the game that if it were up to me, limiting it to 16 would be my suggestion. However, I am only one opinion, (albeit a developer based one) and that is why I suggested 12-16.

Side note 2: Alternatively, energy costs for all abilities could be more expensive because they are not originating on the frames, and because of no ultimate's, no ability would cost 100 and can thus be bumped up by 25 at least.

 

Edited by Velitria
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Just now, Loza03 said:

Because you ignored the points like 'dispensary would be considered grossly overpowered in most games, yet in this game people ask for it to be buffed'... and responded by saying you wanted for it to be buffed.

 

And you proved your point. As you said.

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Hmm, I no longer see any reason why I should waste my time on the Helmith system at all. Some of the abilities as they were seemed to be interesting enough to put on another frame for a bit of fun. But most frames are already more than adequate to get the job done. Changing the subsumed abilities really just makes it even more obvious that this is just a time, resource and probably platinum sink.

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DE, please consider raising the MR Lock from 8 to 12. A lot of newbies or undergeared players are in the region of 1-11. Putting a resource sink like The Helminth in this area is a very bad idea. Why? Because it can be a noob trap. Newbies will be struggling to feed The Helminth while their real goal should be increasing their MR to unlock more gear to farm more efficiently. It can also lead to newbies to rage quit because they aren't making any progress to the system.

Why MR 12? Because at this level they can comfortably do all activities in the game with the available gear, be it Eidolon Hunting, ESO, Arbitrations, Veil Railjack, etc.
 

Edited by DrivaMain
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Just now, (PS4)DidelphisV said:

You realise that if you need to use her armour strip to get it to kill, it’s a bad ability right? Once the armour is stripped, literally anything would kill them. A Specter would do the same job 

specters are incredibly good at very high levels. if an ability can match the power of a specter (and surpass it), it's a damn good ability. just more of a good thing. 

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7 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

it isn't too late, just set MR to 12, don't nerf the abilities too much, spread the nerf onto energy cost and duration as well as strength and range, tell the actual numbers, and everything will be fine. 

for example, why shouldn't the energy cost of roar be 100? on some frames it will take the place of their ult costing 100. that's a better way to nerf it than halving it's strength. actual nerf to strength could be 15-25% i guess. 

That's mean added a quest to unlock new system.

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1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

DE, please consider raising the MR Lock from 8 to 12. 

I can support this, 15 was too high, 8 is too low, 12 is the highest weapon MR requirement for crafting (iirc) and would be a viable point to put it, maybe 10 on the outside lower end.

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