The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Memnarc]

Since when is MR 8 “very experienced”? A month of casual playing will get you that. This was really going to be nice since us actually more experienced players would finally have something worth working towards. As it stands, any MR over 16 is pointless and 16 just barely worth it. Why won’t you actually tier content to unlock at different mastery ranks that make a difference?

[ChaoticEdge]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

Kudos! You did promise to make good use of that meme.😃

As to your question: Those types of nerfs will be inevitable based on potential synergies regardless... But not a likelihood in the near term.

Oh yea like they did with the primary rattle gun?  GG RIP that version.  All it can do is fire a quack.  Ask yourself this one did Bramma heavy nerf was necessary? for 1 we using this as example of the bramma

1.The nerf of Bramma's cluster is good?

- Yes because the dmg output is way too great and cause too much laggy in the game

2.The nerf of Bramma's ammo holds

- No, why you even do it when you didn't nerf the Lenz's ammo at all when it is self mutation ammo for it way worst when Bramma having more then 3 cluster bombs going off.

There is always going be a problem and yes I do see what is good or bad nerf as there is to be or have reason meant to be but we have to see is it really fit for it should be nerf that gravely heavy as it is the way it is.  Also nerfing the tombfinger was little stepping over the boundary there too when it wasn't strong like it's other counter partner of it's secondary tombfinger.  This is where we have to ask why and always ask reason as some ppl have to moving forward question to ask was it really necessary to nerf it.

If anymore heavy nerf without the acknowledged reason why and just nerf it too super heavily will end up leaving the game a mediocre stage, this is where players quits alot more.  There had been ppl done that lately and they really never did came back cold turkey.

[ChaoticEdge]

5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

OMG...

All this whining.

your going hear more whining.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

i'd rather have to deal with the mr restriction (which should be there as an incentive to progress through the game) and have to grind a week to get the segment, than have to deal with ability nerfs that were said to not be happening. 

this change feels like it's just a way to appeal to someone who maybe gets on once a week or two and will set a bar for being the next that goes meh

[-JHL-]

9 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

That’s all for now!

HAH! We all saw this coming. This is why I'm unhappy with this whole system cause crap like this will happen. Luckily they kept the original the same. In my opinion, they should've made this into more of a utility where we can replace useless warframe abilities with something that can be helpful. Instead of straight up buffs that can OBVIOUSLY be broken and DE, with their love for nerf hammer, will be nerfing things left and right. 

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Ravenger-MRIB said:

Of course they have to nerf the good abilities, gotta make Airburst look like it's worth using somehow.

If they only fix the bad or useless ones on the original frames, i still don't understand what's the use of chroma 1? A choreographic effect or what?.

[DecadeX]

There is no way you cared at all when you picked the abilities and didn't know Roar would be extremely prevalent. There is at least 1 person who should have been involved in that process who absolutely knew. It is an insult to the intelligence of every adult who worked on the game last year for their future selves to be doing this now. The thing I cannot fathom is why you insist on hyping a cool system and then nerfing everything that could be cool about it while opening it up to every player you said it wasn't for, and all before it even hits the game. If you want an endgame system for veteran players there are two commitments that have to be made. 1) It has to actually give us enough power to be worth the time investment. 2) It has to have something locking it out to new people. You just failed at both, and its been too long since player feedback received serious attention for me to believe you'd actually reverse course.

[HeavyD-BR]

Come on DE MR 8 Really? That is nothing today one Budd started playing not so long ago he's mr 12 or 13 i think amd he doenst even know how to mod stuff yet.

This is a CO-OP vs IA game why nerf the skills :/ this sys was about to bring a lot of new oportunities and builds into the game :/ if its not for everyone bcuz its so powerfull lock it behind high MR.   High Pain = high rewards

[bibmobello]

16 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

The real reason they nerfed Nidus Larva is to "force" people to spend plat on an extra Khora for her chains because screw grinding SO. At least that's what I'll probably end up doing now... although that or the nerfs honestly bother me less than being "forced" to grind an open world syndicate before I can jump into the content that I really want. Here's hoping DE improves on the failings of the previous open world maps, because low enemy density Infested would be the most boring thing ever.

They even gave khora parts for free on twitch.

[Gruiz]

Mr 8? Experienced?

When i reached MR 8, i dont know any S#&$ that happening in game

[ReavingReaper]

I have so many ideas and so many frames to work on...over 12 of them ready on the foundry table for sacrfice to the helmith god...

Ideas so far
Blood altar replacing sand tornado on inaros....I WILL NEVER DIE!!!

Null star replacing the open maw of doom, on Nidus...damage...i took damage?

Firewalker replacing Vent ability on gauss (i know, its his whole dps..but i like me a fast gauss)....FIRE EVERYWHERE!

and so on

[Detlias]

I've been playing this game for several years.  It's one of, if not my all time favorite game, but the fact that DE is still insistent on nerfing good things instead of buffing the bad has me baffled.  And the change to mastery rank 8 instead of 15? Why?  Why are you still insistent on mastery rank meaning nothing in the scaling of power, it makes little sense.

Disappointing to say the least.

[danberhe]

i get Roar and eclipse (somewhat defy but if it is less than 1000 might as well just remove it entirely) being nerf with how strong they would be in the right set up. 

But the others really?

dispensary already was a poor mans energy restore, with the nerf even bringing a small energy restore would be more useful than it.

Larva is a niche choice to have in specific setups so i cant really see a game breaking application to it.

Warcry only gives attack speed, most melee already do insane one shot damage. the attack speed only makes it like 1 second faster.

 

[Aesith]

DE, sigh, I want to point out here that MR 8 is 8 days of playing Hydron, people do this, I've seen it, I've helped them do it. Not a single one of these players, unless they are immigrating from Xbox or PS4 have any idea how to actually play these frames they're subsuming. And I can prove that in this thread:

• I main Wisp, I love Wisp, I've only seen a handful of other Wisps as strong as mine. Why do I mention Wisp? She has an ability, her 3, Breach Surge, it does massive damage and it's also subsumable. Has anyone mentioned this in 112 pages? I doubt more than 2 dozen.

• Ok sure, twist my arm, Wisp is a pain to get with how much Ropalolalyst likes to terminally break. So let's switch to Nova with her Damage Reduction ability in Null Star. Two stacks of easily upkeepable Damage Reduction sure sounds busted to me. But again, everyone's crying over Roar and Warcry and ... Eclipse.

• Oh dear sweet Eclipse, an ability wherein not only can we effectively control which buff we get but we also cannot control how strong it is either and the game gives exactly zero indication of what the actual buff is. I had hoped this would be fixed in the lighting overhaul but alas my hopes were dashed.

• Quasar's cronies have already done a fair enough job of bringing attention to Volt's Shock and Shock Trooper augment so I'll leave that one lay.

• Elemental Ward. Base Health, Shield, or Armor increase. Somehow this one isn't on the list alongside Wukong' Defy. However this one has also been mentioned a fair amount in this workshop.

Now I really don't want to agree with Quasar, I really don't. However, with this system, they are right in saying there is no way to balance it. Wisp takes Blood Altar from Garuda, I am now free to place 6 Haste Motes without fear of my teammates dying. Trinity obviously swaps Well of Life for Blood Altar and gets the healing buff she's needed for 2 months shy of 8 years now. Saryn, Mesa? Well they take Greedy Pull and never again have to move from their turret position, just like how Draco was that got Greedy Pull nerfed. Ore Gaze? Every frame is now a loot frame, some tiers better than Atlas could ever hope be, so much for the lootframe nerf. Banish? Arbitration Defense no longer requires Limbo, just one of the 4 frames to swap a less than useful ability with Banish. Pillage? Shield gate invulnerability my brothers! My point here is, nerfing  any of these abilities before we've seen how much they actually affect ingame QoL is asinine. Eclipse won't be used anywhere near as much as Roar, it doesn't affect abilities. Roar is you standard for when there is no other more optimal ability. I can continue to go on about combinations being broken on paper, which is all we have right now: paper theory-crafting, but I have another issue to address as well.

The change from MR 15 to MR 8. There aren't words enough to express my disappointment at this arbitrary decision. I had hope that with this MR would mean something beyond an arbitrary gate to what warframes or weapons or rivens you could equip. Rivens. which by the way are the current endgame carrot on a stick and go up to MR 16 in requirement. MR 4 I could understand as that's the last lockout for a non-prime warframe, the last time you unlock the ability to equip a subsumable warframe. Well, I could argue that MR 5 is the last time you unlock that as that's The War Within's, and the 5 warframe-related quests locked by it, lockout. 8 seems capricious in how it was changed but beyond that it solidifies in the minds of many players that MR is, in fact, meaningless. There is no great unlock to chasing MR, no great reward for your valor, for your "perseverance", it just becomes easier to forma and re-level. As it stands MR 16 is it, that's as good it at gets with uncommon MR 16 rivens.

So I leave you with this: why even bother with an MR gate when every single subsumable warframe has an MR requirement of 0, when to unlock every single subsumable warframe you need MR 5. 120 hours, not 120 hours of playtime but 120 hours of logging off and waiting for that arbitrary MR test lockout to count down. Why nerf something that hasn't proven worthy of nerfs or buffs because it isn't live yet, I can theorize that Shock Trooper is hideously powerful on Mirage with her innate Eclipse or Rhino with his innate Roar but then I remember that on Volt and similar frames I never actually use those augments because everyone else is one shotting things without me playing buff, in arbitrations I rarely place Wisp's Health Mote because everyone is already immortal without me playing buff. DE, this game has never had any true form of balance, the last 7 and half years tell me this is true, it has always been a power fantasy game from Ember ruling Io for the ability mod farm to the iconic Mesa and Greedy Mag combo that was the paradigm of affinity gain to the Map-Clear/Rhino/EV/Leech squad meta that was Berehynia to the Chroma/Harrow/Volt/Trinity tridolon meta. I can't speak for all players but at the end of day, my friends, myself, my old clans ... we just wanted to kill hordes and see big numbers. We'd race frames against each other to get the most kills in Berehynia affinity farm (my record still stands at Mag's 2033 kills in 2 rounds to Equinox's 2347 in 2 rounds). For once DE, listen to the actual playerbase not reddit, not the forums, but the people who are just playing Warframe to have fun, to escape life's cruelties, to play with friends, to make new friends, to find a family in a clan, these are the people that will rarely ever visit the forums or reddit or your streams except for the Twitch drops.These are the people that the vocal minority speaks over and pretends to speak for.

On a personal note: I looked forward to this update, I wanted a 323% power strength Eclipse on my Wisp, I wanted the unpredictability of how strong it would be or how long I would have that particular buff. Now I've got a nerfed buff where it likely doesn't matter which it is, my weapons still won't keep pace with the Titania or Saryn or even my own Breach Surge so I'll go with Elemental Ward if I want to be more of a buffer or Null Star if I want to be a tank.

[Kaggelos]

MR 8? I think you misspelled MR 20
Also I hope Defy doesn't go below 1000, the rest I don't mind (personally).
Still waiting anxiously for the update regardless ^^

 

Edit; Maybe your reasoning for lowering the MR is for newer players to get a taste of the Helminth system, and then make them passively get what they need to fully utilize it by playing the game in the long run.

[(PSN)Shadow_Mortex]

If you thought that grendel was prime disappointment, this last nerfs to those abilities on EVERY WARFRAME is umbral disappointment for sure, once again the crybabies win because some is better than his S#&$ty gear/build/frame etc, congrats DE, now you make helminth even less appealing, at least we are going to be able to use our time in something more productive because this mechanic don't worth a penny, like really even nerfing larva!!!

I understand when you tell us that mirage/chroma/rhino can only use one buff ability but don't screw the other remaining frames for the god sake!!!.

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

yeah no the system is rip.  Good ol no fun allowed.  I don't understand why they'ed pick these abilities if they thought they were going to be problematic.  If you want to have the ability be different on the other frame that's fine.  Giving me a nerfed version doesn't really encourage me to use said system.

 Inaros +eclipse even with less damage buff, will deal more damage than mirage because he doesn't care to die, at least on "normal levels" and it's 2 is just trash.

[Tsudzurao]

Last week I was complaining to my friends (All which are between MR 7 and 13) about how low MR 15 was for this content (To which they completely agreed, btw): Some of the abilities may turn out to be overpowered into other frames, but with a high enough MR (Around 20 IMO) cap you can make it so it actually becomes a new sort of character progression beyond our regular mods and arcanes (Both which by then you should already have obtained the most relevant for high end builds). But then you go and instead further lower the MR requirement? The MR 13 friend I mentioned didn't even acquire half the non prime frames AND DIDN'T EVEN FINISH THE STARCHART YET, and now he is considered a veteran player? Resource gating though high amounts of early game resources only means beginners will waste more time farming for content they shouldn't even be bothering yet, and will largely influence in powercreep into earlier stages of the game. It's nothing but expected from MRs 28/29 to be "Overpowered", but having a MR 10 even being able get near crossing that border is frustrating for both sides.

I don't like the skill changes, either. Not because I was planning on using them, because I definitely wasn't (Roar may be strong, but is boring af imo), but because it opens precedence to a pretty lame way of dealing with it. I'd say either nerf ALL the abilities adquired through the helminth or don't nerf any of them.

[Rakosta_Kai]

8 minutes ago, ChaoticEdge said:

Oh yea like they did with the primary rattle gun?

Ask yourself this...

They've tuned these abilities down before they even got released...Just exactly how OP did they have to be in builds to get nerfed now?

By your comments, Would you rather yeet some frames, slot the ability, lose the power, and complain this time next month?

Seems like DE is doing the smartest thing possible to keep from having that this time around.

That said, I still think it's going to happen eventually regardless. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

That said, I still think it's going to happen eventually regardless.

No need to think it, I can assure you it will, and we will all shake our heads in disgust/depression when it does.

[Kaggelos]

Maybe your reasoning for lowering the MR is for newer players to get a taste of the Helminth system, and then make them passively get what they need to fully utilize it by playing the game in the long run. In which case, might be a good idea.

[BigWillBlue]

I'm really upset to see this system nerfed before we even had a chance to try it out. I doubt it was going to be as crazy and broken as people were speculating. As strong as an ability might be in a given warframe's kit,that doesn't mean it wiil be as strong in another warframe's kit without careful consideration and modding.  Besides, most of the nerfs were for abilities that can be shared with teammates anyway, synergies that are already in the game. Slight power creep for solo players? Maybe, but not game breaking.

I'm also sad to see the MR prerequisite lowered from 15 down to 8. New players already have enough to deal with as is, and you said it yourself, this is a system for experience players. You can reach MR 8 in 8 days with little effort - I'm not sure I'd call someone like that an "experienced" warframe player.

[QueenofYandxre]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

The MR prereq should be at least MR11 and up. MR8 is way to early of a rank to be able to use the Helmy (my nickname for him, lmao) system. MR11 and up is where most weapons and whatnot are fully unlocked by that point. Do reconsider changing the MR prereq to at least that before release next week. It make much more sense if the prereq is MR11+.

[iSiawPrime]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules

Can you not call it “rules” or “balance” but instead nerfs? Either all of them follow the rules, and thus create balance, or none of them follow these “rules”.

[S.Faiz]

Nerf the update before its launch....nice!!! keep going on like this..!!