The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[GrandLibra]

How about instead of nerfing the top abilities for being "Too Good." You buff or replace a bunch of the lower end abilites to the point where they actually become reasonable picks for subsuming.

Mind Control could easily be switched for Psychic Bolts. A much better ability, thats far less signature to Nyx's kit, that many other frames would like to have access to.
Zephyr's airburst, while a step in the right direction with the buff it already received, is still far too weak to be a contender with the other Gathering abilities on the subsume list.

I understand you don't want players to just subsume Rhino and slap Roar and every Frame they can. But this is not the way to do it. Give us some actual options for alternatives, instead of tanking top end abilities, that you yourselves picked for this system.

Also MR 8, is very much, not deep into progression.

[Redfeather75]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Absent that, just go play Remnant ( I assume you mean Remnant of the Ashes)... Definitely a great choice and a new DLC incoming too.

I picked it up during the free period! Watching a "New World Record For 100 Boss" survival stream on twitch.

I am having such a blast that I bought the swamp dlc and going to get the other tomorrow! 😲

[0_The_F00l]

It would have been OK if MR 8 was the point where you got helminth abilities and MR 15 was when you could subsume frames in my opinion. 

I do not really see it too much as a problem, but I do feel DE is relenting and giving up on their original approach that this was "not intended for New players" which is disappointing. 

The logic given doesn't make sense either. 

[(XBOX)fabianinplano]

I'm in agreement that the MR change sucks, but really? You guys are getting this mad about the boring damage buff abilities getting a nerf? If I read it right, warcry  still gives armor and slows down enemies, and I usually have a buttonmashing speed melee on at all times, so warcry nerf might be unneeded, but not too much to kill it off.

 

Wukong defy is stupid though. 1500 armor was nice, and it was going to be a way to make frost more appealing in later game. Please keep it capped at 1500

[Jessadactyl]

So, you all literally lied about it being for experienced players? Just want to be clear here. MR8 is not deep in to the progression of the game. Like, I'm not trying to stir anything up; but this doesn't help experienced players from feeling alienated. MR8 can be gotten to in under a week of play, it may as well be available for new players at this point. If anything, even cutting it down to MR12 would be fine. But, MR8 feels way too low; and I feel like I've been blatantly lied to. This is unfortunately, not the first time.

[Scarecrow514]

I'm usually pretty calmed about this, but are you out of your mind? Letting MR8 people be able to use Helminth? Are you serious? For once in 2 and half years I was excited about an update from you guys, because you were restricting a mechanic to high MR player that most of them know how to make their own builds and tweak it to their personal taste. But letting low MR players be able to do it too?

Why is it that you always have to trivialize stuff? Sure, I get you want to attract more people, more people equals more money. But please don't forget about your old players.

I wish you success but it looks like it might be another fiasco like Railjack and Liches, and I really hope I'm wrong. Kinda disappointed nonetheless.

[Hawk197]

So... Who exactly are these nerfs for...? Are they for the vets like myself, who have basically everything by now and wanted a reason to farm again, or for the newer players, who don't have jack and are worried with a preconceived notion that power, in a PLAYER VERSES ENVIRONMENT game, would some how break it? Because if it's the former, you literally gave us a reason NOT to farm duplicates of certain Warframes since the powers are going to be lessened. Seriously, I was about to log on and continue farming for a second Nidus, but now I don't have a reason to until I know exactly how badly you screwed us over. If it's the latter, who cares? This was suppose to be a system for EXPERIENCED players. And from the looks of it, dropping the requirements down to MR 8, is just another slap in the face of vets who want something of our own. MR 8 isn't "experienced", hell, I was MR 8 in the first damn week when I joined during U13. Hell, I was even crushing Stalker when I was MR 2 with Rhino, who was actually MR locked to MR 2 at this time, and Dex Furis. How the hell is MR 8 considered "experienced", when you can get to MR 8 by barely owning any Warframes, any weapons, and basically exploring nothing?

 

Please consider reverting these changes. As they are now, there's almost no reason to use this system since the actually experienced players, who have thousands and thousands of hours in your game and have reached high MR 20s, can easily say screw it and not worry about a system that doesn't benefit them at all. Who cares if this "breaks the game"? Conclave is dead, Lunaro is dead, Frame Fighter is dead, Dark Sectors are dead, basically every pvp mode is dead. I rarely die as is, giving me the ability to even more not die doesn't change the fact that I'm never really in danger unless I get to lv 170s at minimum. Even if I do die, I got Arcanes, which gives me 2 extra revives. I also have a Vasca Kavat, and the Primed Regen and Sacrifice mod combo, which will get me up for free. WE are the players you should be focused on. You've already taken away Plains of Eidolon from the vets when you said that was "for us", now you're reducing Helminth? Stop trying to become Candy Crush.

[iSiawPrime]

What if instead of nerfing the subsumed abilities you buff the original one after being subsumed?

This way the original frame would have a stronger variant after being subsumed but the other frames won’t receive nerfs for using it.

[Nox_Terminus]

Just now, (XB1)fabianinplano said:

I'm in agreement that the MR change sucks, but really? You guys are getting this mad about the boring damage buff abilities getting a nerf? If I read it right, warcry  still gives armor and slows down enemies, and I usually have a buttonmashing speed melee on at all times, so warcry nerf might be unneeded, but not too much to kill it off.

 

Wukong defy is stupid though. 1500 armor was nice, and it was going to be a way to make frost more appealing in later game. Please keep it capped at 1500

You think its fine to ask for someone to farm and build a warframe and then sacrifice it, only to get a fraction of one ability? I think not.

Also the current cap for Defy is 1500, if they intend to make that cap even lower, then it will be lower than 1500. Are you going to get mad over a boring defense buff getting a nerf?

Also Warcry's slow only applies to enemies in the initial cast radius, which means very few enemies if you're building for strength and duration.

[Proscriptor]

  

1 minute ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

What if instead of nerfing the subsumed abilities you buff the original one after being subsumed?

This way the original frame would have a stronger variant after being subsumed but the other frames won’t receive nerfs for using it.

the original frame doesn't matter, what matters is the ability being deemed to powerful when transferred on some other frame

[Giga-Chad-Atlas]

Nerfed before release , that's new, not even hyped by this update

[Sylhux]

"Nerfing stuff before release, this is so bad DE boohoo"

You guys all acting like it's abnormal to adjust things before shipping 'em out...

Otherwise yeah, I hope Subsuming brings attention to all those useless abilities that desperately need buffing, not just as subsumed abilities but also for the base Frame they're from.

[Nox_Terminus]

1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said:

  

the original frame doesn't matter, what matters is the ability being deemed to powerful when transferred on some other frame

Which is nonsense considering DE themselves chose to put these abilities into the Helminth System.

[Diedact]

MR8 I'd say unbelievable, but this is par for the course. DE refuses to give any system to veteran players. There's nothing stopping noobs from learning how Warframe works but let's be honest. Being able to do this side by side with everybody who has a better grasp? Why do they even need to bother to learn the game? This has been the first time I've been genuinely disgusted. I mean really. Along side the enemy armor scaling nerf there is absolutely zero content that can't be blown through like paper mache by the totally clueless.

And nerfing Rhino's Roar? Frankly Roar wasn't even my first choice for Rhino for some semblance of balance, I'm not going to raise much of a stink over that particularly. But I dislike the approach. One of the favorite lines I've heard from a game developer was in an interview for Dead Space 2. Said something along the lines of how the Plasma Cutter in Dead Space 1 was so good it discouraged players from trying other weapons. But they said they'd never make the Plasma Cutter worse. They tried to make everything else better.

And warframes are going to be a lot better, just in general. It wasn't the worst thing in the world that warframes had an ability or two in their kit that just wasn't useful most of the time. Enemies need to be scaled back up. Steel Path needs to have better rewards to justify the effort.

[trst]

Oh no DE did the thing everyone should have expected them to do. Oh the horror of needing to work on something for a couple of days that you were going to do already.

This is truly a tragedy that has befallen the entire community._/s

[(XBOX)fabianinplano]

2 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

You think its fine to ask for someone to farm and build a warframe and then sacrifice it, only to get a fraction of one ability? I think not.

Also the current cap for Defy is 1500, if they intend to make that cap even lower, then it will be lower than 1500. Are you going to get mad over a boring defense buff getting a nerf?

Also Warcry's slow only applies to enemies in the initial cast radius, which means very few enemies if you're building for strength and duration.

Tbh I really don't use these abilities, that's my bad. But even a blind man could've seen this coming. I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed

[Punchyfist]

So, DE just outright admitting that all future uses for the new system is already going the way of rivens and any useful powers will be subject to nerfs if overused, no matter the actual context.  All resources and time spent on the system are just going to be wasted, anything useful will be made worthless.  On top of lying about buffing weaker powers to be of any worth to even attempt to make them worth slotting.  Just throw it all under the parade of bus's and call it a day.  Very brave of them.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

"Why do I have to participate in the games content?"

They made it MR 8. There's no excuse for you now....

[(PSN)Shadow_Mortex]

hace 1 hora, Voltage dijo:

Why should I ever play Valkyr if Inaros can just have her only good ability and be much tankier? Or Wisp, who actually has a completely better kit, health regen, and will get even more attack speed than Valkyr. What is Warframe identity when I can just create a synergy that just becomes disgusting in the use I have it for and outshines any standard Warframe kit for that use? Why should I ever use Chroma in Eidolons if my Volt Prime can cast Shock Trooper, Roar, and then fire through shields for more Critical Damage? Why play Mirage in Profit Taker if my Volt can use Eclipse? 

This system does create massive issues when it comes to certain abilities, and these abilities need to be changed up.

Nerfing abilities is stupid because it highlights that DE does not see the fundamental problem with some abilities they listed for subsuming.

You must be really fun at parties, i am so happy that i never going to play with you, this game already have meta, better frames, better weapons, the cursed meta mods, adding more options for the players to mix just add that, more options, for people like you we lost weapons like the cyanex, now a totally garbabe and have the only viral meta because people cry that corrosive was op, cmon just try to enjoy the game for a time, this is a coop game, we are not fighting player vs player, i never used saryn, i know is a nuke frame that i could do every mission with her and forget about anything, we have rhino that just use his iron scale and forget about armor, life or anything, we have valkyr with hysteria, literally she heal herself and became invulnerable, this is not a balanced game, this is a game full of meta everywhere you see, the only thing you do with this kind of complains is reduce the options for every player, weapons like cyanex suck, launchers now suck more only for 1 weapon, zaws are nerfed with every riven dispo, things like arca plasmor or most of the shotguns are worse.

Start to see the pattern? every time we complain we only do things worse, they only nerf our gear, our weapons and frames, never a single good buff.

[DrivaMain]

Would you rather :

1. Nerf it before release and have 1 million people complain before release?
 

2. Nerf it after release and have 10 million people complain after release?

[kalmeida]

I was so exited for this system and now this is just depressing, playing a watered down version of an existing ability just feels bad.

just swap it to a different ability, this doesn't actually fix anything My Lave with 280% range currently has a 33 m range, say that goes down to 25, I'm still using it just as much on exactly the same frames I just feel worse while I'm doing it. OK so you nerf it to 15 m now I'm using Khora and I'm never using Larve so why not just swap Larve to something else so I have a use for Nidus.

and another thing having 6 equally viable top tier abilities is an amazing outcome, you cant reasonable expect every single ability to be equally good, there will always be a meta.

I started playing Warframe when Trinity Prime released but I heard about coptering and I thought it was amazing how a developer could listen to what their community was saying and make them feel like their opinions mattered when they made a change.

The Xoris nerf was the exact opposite of this, I felt ignored not because of the nerf but because we received no response to a lot of valid criticism. If you're going to go ahead of this at least explain why

TL:DR

1) why can't the ability be swapped for a different one.

2) why a meta of 6 great abilities is not good enough and how many would be enough.

3) why the original plan of buffing the subpar abilities is no longer viable to give people more choices.

4) and finally why in gods name did anyone think Roar would not be used more than everything else combined.

 

[El_Tavo_Prime]

rework the exalted weapons please 

[Hazardsol]

I was very excited for this new addition to the game, I thought it was going to change metals, give more build diversity, and gameplay diversity but now with the nerfs and the mastery rank lock being lowered for newer players which they said was going to be for experienced players, which 8 is not in any way shape or form experienced as I had some friends still do 30 dmg to enemies in the 90s with what they call a good build which was made of upS mods and other mods which didn't benefit the gun, or melee, In conclusion, this mastery lock should be taken back up to 15, and to be honest I think you guys (devs) are just nerfing these because then the other abilities would not be picked and would be ignored, so your solution to this is nerfing the other good abilities to be as bad as the other ones to have balance, ok here is an Idea make the other abilities better and then you would not have to nerf, you would just fix things in the abilities if they are game breaking, which these abilities could be game breaking but before you nerf them let the players use them first and then decide if to nerf them or not because players always find way to break stuff, like aura mods, warframe abilities, even wens to the point where numbers go negative because of so much dmg.

The point of all this I wrote is that I am disappointed, all the hype that I got from tennocon is almost entirely gone, the exception to the loss of hype is the new warframes coming (they look really cool), I hope they don't get nerfed like this before we players even are able to touch it.

[DariusMcSwag]

8 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

Just make Subsuming Warframes a MR 15 requirement. The Helminth system can still be accessible to MR 8 players, but they cant sacrifice Warframes until MR 15. That way they get used to the system over time, and this also gives players a goal to reach for.

Easy fix. Do it.

[malekas]

These "pre-nerfs" are the wrong direction for the system, especially with Dispensary. Sure, a lot of people were surprised about Roar, and knew it would be a top choice. But Dispensary is considered for a lot of frames just because there's nothing else worth choosing. A majority of the abilities we can choose from are garbage, and in some cases the original frame doesn't even want it (cough Ice Wave cough). There were only a few choices that looked appealing. With the direction DE is going it could reach a point that makes players wonder "why bother with the system at all, nothing looks worth the grind". I don't want this system to be the next Focus system, where players get the one good thing from it and call it done. But the only way to make this better is to BUFF THE BAD ABILITIES.

 

A majority of the abilities should be appealing, not only a handful that are getting nerfed already. Nerfing these abilities doesn't make the bad abilities more appealing, it makes the whole system look less appealing.