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I don't care about the mr cap , since it already has a natural cap in it ( needs a lot of resource and extra frame , and done a lot of mission to fully unlock it.)

I care more about the ability themselves.

I don't know why you guys nerf some ability .

Maybe those are just really OP , and that's 100% true. Imagine peacemaker with roar.

But the thing is , most of the abilities in the helminth pool are really meh , or even bad . People won't choose them anyway . By nerfing some of the better abilities in it , will just make this system as a whole a really boring system , maybe even considered worthless by some.

The better solution is to do a ability overhaul , make all of the ability worth the energy cost , and an ability slot . Or at least make them useful in certain condition ( like the auto hack one ) . 

In this way , this system can be interesting to test out ability combos . Then it will be 80% fine for the players to have some extreme case to be nerf ( like roar )

 

The other possibility is this will make some warframe irrelevant.

A lot of frame right now really just have one ability to for them , and when that ability happened to be subsumed-able , that frame will just not be use at all.

Nerfing those ability is an easy way to "fixed" it for sure , but not a good one. A better one , again , is an ability overhaul.

In this case , even if those ability can be use by other frames , the frame itself will still be considered good and worth forma-ing and using.

At the end , this system just amplify the needs of an ability overhaul. Player have been asking this for years , some dedicated player gave advise for their favorite frame , and some even just gave their opinion for every single one ( like me ) .

Just like the warframe revise you did at the start of the year , it will be a minor set back , or boring for some people , but the results will be overwhelmingly good.

Just take a month to think about it . You don't even have to do it from scratch , there are already more suggestion than nano spores in the entire world.

Please put this in high priority , I believe this will give a more solid foundation for future updates. And most of the player base will love it.

 

 

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I would like to point out two important things :

The first hasn't, to my knowledge, be mentionned anywhere : Expedite Suffering is consuming all damage over time in a single tick to enemies in a cone. Sounds nice, but the description is only refering to bleed and toxin. What about Heat ?

And the second part is a reccuring point. My belief was that the whole Helminth system was supposed to help out balancing the game by identifying player's choice to nerf or buff abilities according to their popularity (like Riven disposition). If that's the case, why would you nerf only subsumed abilties, and not the original; while you buff some unused abilties all across the board ? Seems strange to me.

Either you buff/nerf only subsumed; or you buff/nerf both original and transfered.
 

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10 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

I'd love to see actual numbers. I dot think warcry or defy really needed their nerfs. 

I think it's just how clearly roar and eclipse outshine basically every other ability in terms of Helminth choice. 

Instead of nerfing them over and over until less than the majority of players use them because that's what DE does; please just remove roar and eclipse and make it charge and slight of hand. That way they're not broken OP damage multipliers/damage reductions and that way you don't have to constantly nerf the Helminth abilities. 

9 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

Why? This is supposed to be an extremely endgame concept and game mechanic. You're literally destroying warframes to gain their power. This should NOT be a mastery 8 thing. Seriously, I am so mind boggled by why this mastery rank restriction was REDUCED... if anything it should be increased. Mastery rank 20 sounds more appropriate. 

 

9 hours ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

I am not no living this game,i am an old player,someone who this was supposed to aim at,not new players that played for a few months,no people like me that played for years. Just because there is something new in the game that doesn't mean EVERYONE should have access to it,especially to something SO powerful as this

Dude, I am an old player. I've played now for 6 years. Since 2014. Even I don't have millions and millions of some of the resources to throw out per each individual ability. 

People like you are just insane grinding players that are the exception to the majority. I can't and won't play more than 1-2 hours a day because otherwise I get burnt out.

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10 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused

The popularity based ("overwhelming choice") component of this decision is infuriating. If this is the driving force for balance decisions then I hope consideration is made to improving abilities that nobody bothers to infuse and existing warframe abilities that large numbers of player replace.

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Letting MR 8 players have access to this system is a very bad idea. 

At MR 8 you don't fully understand all the rules to Warframe yet, which should be a requirement to the helminth-system which breaks the existing rules of Warframe. Players should understand the regular rules first before given ability to break them. 

 

regarding the ability nerfs: I'm glad you're nerfing them now, rather than later.

 

Edited by EnterTheFray0
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I honestly don't get the overreaction about the MR lock modification. I'm not quite fond of the MR locks in general but I have to admit this one makes sense. Though what's the big difference between 8 and 15?! From what I can see you'll still be in need of most of the resources, and even though you THEORETICALLY had to try more warframes (SO/Adaro/Veil Proxima/name it spam? Hello?) both 8 and 15 are reachable in a matter of weeks.

Hell, I see way more people hitting MR20+ than people able to access the Profit Taker because ranking up all the way to the max apparently takes ages. Wait a minute.

<s> How 'bout they put the Helminth segment in the highest rank offerings on that one new syndicate? Now that would give certain people enough time to level and forget experience most of the warframes and hoard resources before they actually get access to it.</s>

Not even sure if I meant to be sarcastic on the last sentence. That would even timegate it even more for low MR players. Bam, two birds one stone, and a huge mountain of salt on the forums.

I'm sorry. I just genuinely don't get why this causes such an overreaction.

Edited by Redeye
Added timegate/MR part
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On 2020-08-13 at 1:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

I prefer keeping it to MR15, or make it MR10 plus The Sacrifice quest completed as a requirement. For me, setting the prerequisite to MR8 feels like a gateway to let newbies rush getting warframes in the market. 

On 2020-08-13 at 1:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped


Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Not sure how they are getting the data on "player feedback and play testing" but my feedback as a beta player in PC, that the nerf is unappealing to the upcoming update. If we cant avoid nerfed versions of Infused Warframe abilities - then better provide us a form of partial refund of resources on the sacrificed warframe. The nerf before update is just so bad, that I feel like the release the Helminth system is similar to the release of Frame Fighter - quiet a nice but dead content ingame. Do a reasonable nerf after 1-2 months release of the update while gathering statistics for those "bad and nasty combos" of warframes.

Edited by ChronoJXF
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41 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Would you rather :

1. Nerf it before release and have 1 million people complain before release?
 

2. Nerf it after release and have 10 million people complain after release?

There aren't 10 million active players for this game so you'll never have that many players complaining. There aren't 1 million WF users active on social media so you won't ever see that many people complaining.

Also, you miss the issue: players don't want the abilities nerfed at all. Doesn't matter if it's announced before or after release.

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Roar even with lowered stats is still going to be one of the best options because it's a fundamentally sound ability. The damage boost will affect a lot of damage dealing abilities, by a multiplier. Meaning that in many cases, it will likely outperform the helminth ability empower. Food for thought for the math nerds.

Still excited about the system and I'm kinda glad that some of the nErFz(insert clucking spongebob) are hopefully going to keep some appeal of original Frames intact.

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Hobestly it makes sence that some of the abilities will be nerfed, power creep but mostly because those are not the warframe's original abilities(the one transferred to it).

also the "nerfed" abilities will still be hella useful and strong regardless because it changes a useless/unwanted ability.

im abit disappointed that the system's MR required got reduced, but happy it is locked behind the Entraty family reputation.

Edited by sonyseva6055
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5 hours ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

Why bother to farm Nyx, Nekros, Loki, Frost just to add them to other Frames

it's seemingly impossible to equalize every ability and frame in the game, especially since the roster keeps growing. you'll always have clear choices that overwhelm others no matter how much you rebalance them and it's obviously gonna show up for the subsume abilities. 

and this system is barely comparable to rivens, with the amount of variables and marketability they have compared to just replacing 1 ability in another frame.

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Players will still find ways to make the "nerfed" abilities overpowered.

I'm more concerned about the MR requirements, as this was billed as something for Experienced players.

Plus now we have ANOTHER system for novices to get overwhelmed by.

The final MR lock in normal progression was at MR16 (final Riven unlock) so having it at 15 would have been perfect.

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2 hours ago, VocaSeiza said:

Warframe Players: " Oh my god, these abilitues are too OP, everybody will be using Roar or Eclipse"

Also Warframe Players: "SCREW U DE WHY U NERF"

The numbers aren't even out yet smh 

I think the main problem is that they didn't release Any of the numbers. We have no clue how badly those abilities will be nerfed, we just know they're not going to be the same. Which means a lot of farming that people did may be useless, and it's kind of in bad faith to say to your players "Hey! Go spend days to farm all those tedious warframes again..... even though the work you put into may not even be worth it by the time the update is released."

 

They also kinda said they weren't going to adjust abilities because of the system, then they did it anyway.... so yeah.

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I hope there is a warning when subsuming nerfed abilities. Not everyone reads this topic (especially not Page 81 or so of this topic) and you don't want people complaining "Why tf does my Roar only do +5% damage with 300% strength ????".

All in all, I see no point in nerfing *some* abilities for whatever reason. Nerf them all (ie all subsumed abilities inherit xx% damage/range/duration of the original), or none. If Eclipse and Roar needed a nerf, then that'd have been better to just replace them with Mirage's 2 and Rhino Stomp maybe.

Edited by Chewarette
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em... nerf before launch? i guess hyping and hoping for the best is never a thing for this game... maybe warframe is approaching its end... sadly but i do wish the game to be good...

these days i see myself playing less of warframe not because of the overpowered players DE its because we dont have a lot to do anymore... whats fun rn is to kill stuff with as much power u can get but then u nerf everything like this and the game becomes dumber and dumber...

"grind harder lesser returns" 

honestly, overpowered space Ninja? that is warframe! we shud have fun.

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9 minutes ago, (XB1)DeathwishDragon said:

Still excited about the system and I'm kinda glad that some of the nErFz(insert clucking spongebob) are hopefully going to keep some appeal of original Frames intact.

If you’re worried about the integrity of the originals frames, then don’t use the Helminth system, plain and simple lol.

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Well that's how DE works in the name of "Balance".

Players post polls of what are top picks for abiliteis and DE will see to it that "Every" ability gets to have "Equal" picks by leveling the playing field with Nerf Bat Primes.

The same could be said about Warframes and weapons.

"If it sticks out, hammer it down."

 

That being said which do you think is worse?

Nerf it after release and after everyone subsumed Roar to every DPS frame? or before?

Edited by H.Katsura_999
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Is it even worth it to farm a warframe, invest time and farm resources to sacrifice that warframe and get a weaker version of their abilities. I thought you guys said their helminth version ability is stronger than the original.

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For all the salt and bluster about the changes, least they are doing it before it releases rather than finding that hmm those were too good and now we will change them a week or so in (and its highly possible that things WILL change even after it goes live)

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The Helminth was supposed to be the veteran systeme! Stop with your new player friendly crap for one and just let us Keep something for high level! The noobs sont even be able to have the ressources for the Helminth before MR15. And why nerf when YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW how it's going to be in-game!

Warframe is supposed to be overpowered space ninjas. I DO NOT SEE THE OWERPOWERED on the game because you at DE need to make EVERYTHING new player friendly ! 

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6 minutes ago, H.Katsura_999 said:

Well that's how DE works in the name of "Balance".

Players post polls of what are top picks for abiliteis and DE will see to it that "Every" ability gets to have "Equal" picks by leveling the playing field with Nerf Bat Primes.

The same could be said about Warframes and weapons.

"If it sticks out, hammer it down."

 

That being said which do you think is worse?

Nerf it after release and after everyone subsumed Roar to every DPS frame? or before?

Except they clearly don't do that with Warframes, as there are absolutely certain frames that are OP and others that are mediocre or even underpowered.

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