The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[IGN_Maverick]

4 hours ago, spudster888. said:

Ah. yeah on second inspection i'd be inclined to agree. I initially thought he was having a poke at people who have a problem with the nerfs. As for the Xoris nerf, these are on the same level, nerfs that just have no place what so ever. In the case of the xoris they nerfed something that was convenient, not the best.

Exactly. Putting the Helmint segment behind the Rank 3 of the new faction is ok. 

At this point I don't even care about how big is the nerf of these abilities, I'm straight up NOT going to play it. Another disappointment after Steel Path.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

16 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Maybe then we will use a more trusted and popular source?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie

How You will call MR29 player entering Interception with Saryn or Excavation with Inaros, because for me it’s pure Noob. You missing the point what will happen with players under MR15 after HoD release, everyone will go and try to hit MR15 ASAP.

[KurtisPrime]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

People are acting like the Helminth system is rocket science levels of complex and that a new player's peanut brain couldn't figure it out until they were MR15, when it would magically become a normal brain or something

The Point of mastery rank is TO GATE NEW PLAYER UNTIL THEY PLAY LONG ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE GAME. Yes A new player WILL get magically smarter when they reach MR15 cause THEY PLAY LONG ENOUGH TO REACH MR 15. 

[WarriorSoundwave]

I'm probably going to just ignore this new system for the most part. Not worth my resources. But since I built a ton of frames I'm probably just going to sacrifice all of them for an ugly low poly flower garden. Cheers.

[spudster888.]

2 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

One mans mediocre trash is another mans mediocre treasure.

In this case, ensnare/null star on Chroma who doesn't have CC or get enough damage reduction does wonders.

Just because that thing is treasure to another person, doesn't make it good. Way to many warframe players confuse liking something with it being good. There is a level of objectivity due to it being a class based game. Pick the thing you enjoy most, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't confuse it with 'this thing is the absolute best'. So go nuts, thats what the system is for, but at the end of the day its still probably not the best thing  you can do. 

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

4 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Classic example.

"Hmm ripline doesn't get used much. Let's remove the most used archwing ability and replace it with that".

At least this time they actually playtested it before release, although why they didn't realise this straight away is still laughable.

These nerfs have nothing to do with play testing..They just waited to see what the community wanted to do. Then reacted to it. And agine like weapons   nerfing what is popular. ...

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

How You will call MR29 player entering Interception with Saryn or Excavation with Inaros, because for me it’s pure Noob. You missing the point what will happen with players under MR15 after HoD release, everyone will go and try to hit MR15 ASAP.

In a warframe, the experience of using equipment and mr are different things. Noob can be mr29. Which brings us to the question of why noobs can't take rank 15 when it's so easy.

[IGN_Maverick]

3 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

One mans mediocre trash is another mans mediocre treasure.

In this case, ensnare/null star on Chroma who doesn't have CC or get enough damage reduction does wonders.

Null star hasn't even been touched. Would you be of the same opinion if damage reduction would have been capped on that? Don't think so. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

These nerfs have nothing to do with play testing..They just waited to see what the community wanted to do. Then reacted to it. And agine like weapons   nerfing what is popular. ...

No it's not play testing, I'm willing to bet they checked what skills are used the least though.

[Ghosty-Jr]

Why did you lower it?!?! This is the first ever mechanic you advertise to NOT BE FOR NEW PLAYERS and you have already gone back on your word!

[killerJoke66]

Also i love how they somehow capped the wukong defy when it already had a cap and the bonus generally didnt matter since wudong either lifesteals back or uses defy to gain invulnerability time , lvl 400 napalm aint gonna care about 1500 extra armor hes gonna slap yo ass ... well since they dont play at that level they dont even know 

aaaaaaaand in sorite levels even hydroid puke can kill stuff , or at worst weapons kill stuff so ooooo ahaahahah ,such a kneejerk changes i love to laugh at it man 

[RyanCooper101]

(This isn't about the nerf, that was expected, that's whatever. This is about the MR change)
(I love the game, and I want the game to get better and to prevent new cool systems from basically being a "one and done" thing)

Honest concern DE, please take into consideration this feedback, which a lot of us feel like it doesn't reach you:

If you don't have something to work towards... why play... there's no sense of accomplishment for engaging with the systems

-> This will bring a spike of players for 2 to 4 weeks, then those same players will leave until the system is dumbed down further and made easier to the point its not fun to engage with it anymore, and long time players will end up going away for some time

(honestly who gave the MR feedback to lower it, it was perfectly fine...)

Everyone was excited when it was advertised as content for mildly experienced players (mr15 is straight down the middle)
I wholeheartedly think that someone is forgetting that nowadays MR ranks are BEYOND easy to get with the sheer amount of gear we have), 
Please consider the amount of content you are OVERWHELMING new players with.
There's so many systems new people have acces to, TOO early (the game has so much gear that mr 15 is basically free anyways, we're almost at mr 30 ).

This also happens with Liches, amongst other systems, which should also be locked behind atleast mr 12, so the players that try to do it have a SMIDGE of power and gear ready to use against them (example: syndicate weapons)

Fortuna release also was an example of this, mr 1-5's not being able to complete quest 1 , because the MR lock was so low

Several things will end up happeniong, as this happened with Railjack too (which btw, got basically nuked because new people kept dying and said it was bad, and everyone snowballed in . I'm still hoping we get updates for it on the future because a lot of us had fun in the challenge Railjack one. This is a consequence of catering content to new players. Now Railjack as a whole is quite the joke and not challenging or fun (i mean, skeet shooting) as it used to be, right now if you check the map you'll see that 90% of the nodes are 0-2 squads)

People , (mr 8's) will be absolutely clueless and will either : Quit the game outright after deleting one of their frames  or just ignore the system and never engage with it. Needless to say , the chats will be flooded 24/7 with "How does this work" "This is bad" "This is trash" (same thing happened to RAILJACK) and it will just cause a snowballing of bad feedback 

All of us here that play warframe, enjoy the game, spend time and money because we see the good and the potential the game has. Please DE, take into consideration the health of the game. Releasing "fast food content" (as in, people consume it and forget it, not because its developed fast or with low effort, we all know a great deal of effort and care is put into the game and its systems) , isn't healthy for the long run, and Warframe would be so much more engaging if people had a "salad" every so often. Working towards a goal is something everyone likes, especially in MMO's. Don't be afraid to use the MR system as a way to prevent players from hurting themselves or the new systems with confused feedback

[killerJoke66]

its truly a clown fiesta

[(XBOX)DeathwishDragon]

21 minutes ago, IGN_Maverick said:

This is intellectually dishonest in my opinion. Valkyr has a completely different feel and stats than other frames, plus her exalted weapon. Then you make the mistake of " I play Valkyr this way because it's the most durable, so everyone it's playing it like this ". Maybe people are playing Valkyr differently. Who knows.
 

The problem here is, DE keeps fixing the bad part of their design decision by runining the good part in order to equate the two. It's dumb.

 

And creates animosity among the playerbase. Just look at this forum post.

I was being narrow minded about the playstyle of valkyr, for which I apologize but also to an extent still stand by. I'm a math nerd. I want big numbers as fast as possible. And it's my assumption that many of the the "MIN-MAX"ers are in a similar boat. Valkyr does have variety in her kit, all frames do; However one has to ask "How much of that is relevant?" I look at her abilities and see a trend. 1= Cheap Mobility/single targert control. 2= major melee speed boost, minor cc, armor buff. 3= Mediocre CC, decent with augment. 4= Temporary sustain ability to dish out damage, replenish health, and reposition. Her kit screams Melee! Berserker! Tank! to me.   But a frame like wisp walks up, who already has better Sustain and cc, borrows THE berserker ability from Valkyr and can reach similar if not better results with little sacrifice and easier management. True it's done with different methods and playstyles but my focus in on the results.

 

Other than that, I fully agree. It feels like they forget that they make a power fantasy and try to create unnecessary balance that only hurts player experience.

Yeah, the forums are a beast of their own, it seems. It's honestly shocking sometimes to see the hostility and short mindedness in what's usually a calm community. I'm still new to the forums so I can't really critique much more.

[UhhArgh]

21 minutes ago, oohshiny said:

Here's some quick graphs I pulled together regarding what weapons are available at what MR:

50% of Prime weapons are available at MR11. The majority are at MRs 10, 12 and 14.

Not counting Archguns, Kitguns or Zaws, 50% of non-prime weapons are available at MR7. (Strictly speaking, Kuva weapons are available at MR5, but their listed MR is much higher.)

Apart from Rivens, mastery rank requirements are very heavily clustered at MR8 and under; new players are absolutely drowning in choice, and I constantly see people asking for guidance because they feel lost. Adding Helminth at MR8 will only make things worse for them.

Thanks for your graph mate. I could see it too from your explanation. The MR system and its requirement needs to be reworked first. MR doesn't really determine player's knowledge to the game mechanics and new player already overwhelmed by the game content can be accessed too early. Separation must be made so player keen to every stage of the game, where are they at, what they should do now or next. An example is MR test 14 to 18, really? like we haven't done it in earth before.

 

The core of this broken system is the MR system. I think any upcoming content will always have issue unless the MR system is reworked.

[Metal_Sign]

18 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Revert the MR changes to the Helminth system.

 

Whilst the vocal minority who willingly keeps themselves in the lower MRs will be sacrificed...~snip~

 

MR 16 and I wouldn't mind having it be limited to 20 so I have more than half a reason to bother doing those MR tests I have piled up.

[Neightrix]

MR8 players don't even have half the frames yet, and they may end dumping resources they need for something else. Why should they get to start swapping abilities when they're barely into the game?

[RyanCooper101]

Just now, Neightrix said:

MR8 players don't even have half the frames yet, and they may end dumping resources they need for something else. Why should they get to start swapping abilities when they're barely into the game?

This is another GREAT reason to lock such a system to a higher MR.

With the sheer amount of gear we have, MR 15 isn't even hard to work up to if you want to.

Like.. its not for elitism, its for the health of the game and the new players not being overwhelmed and hurt with a bad experience

[Sahansral]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Kingsmount:

What the hell DE.

A lot of abilities needed BUFFS.

Yet instead, you go around NERFING abilities?

What the hell?

Why the hell would you nerf these things when they're just fine on other frames?  When you can't stack the damage buff?  WHEN YOU'RE REPLACING ONE OF YOUR ABILITIES for this ability that's just fine on someone else?  My disappointment is immeasurable. 

You completely wiped any excitement I felt towards this update.  And I was excited, for once. It got me to play the game again in anticipation.

 

This is a frigging PVE game.  LET US HAVE FUN SOMETIMES,  It's always nerf this and nerf that.  ffs.  Rarely any focus on making things fun, instead you hyperfocus on some nebulous concept of balance through limitation instead of entertainment. 

 

Yet now I'll just go play Remnant from the Ashes.

Come on, share your wisdom, how would you buff things like decoy or air burst to be preferable to curent roar?
I'm very excited to see you trying.

With your definition of fun, we would still have things like miraculor, old Blade storm, World of Fire, Blessing, Sound Wave etc, etc.
Yeah, that is fun - for one player, while the rest of the team struggles to find enemies.

Even with DE trying to balance, things are horrible at the moment.. Join a PUG with low/mediocre gear and try to have fun/contribute when there's also a player with top-meta gear  in the mission.
Try to have fun with a Support/CC-frame, that is absolutely not needed at the moment, because DPS/Tanks rule all.
 

Try having fun with primaries/secondaries when teammates kill things faster than you can zoom-in or make hundred times moar damage with their melee builds.
 

And yet, even in this situation, people like you still think more power equals more fun.

Utterly incomprehensible.

Go play your Remnant from the Ashes.

[IGN_Maverick]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)DeathwishDragon said:

But a frame like wisp walks up, who already has better Sustain and cc, borrows THE berserker ability from Valkyr and can reach similar if not better results with little sacrifice and easier management.

I do agree on this particular aspect. But don't you think that Valkyr can be buffed too following the same logic? I mean, Valkyr can still take 1 ability from another frame or am I  missing something here? That would open up many different scenarios. Anyways DE is nerfing for another reason, so we are discussing just our personal views.

[stormy505]

Glad they nerfed it before hand so I don't get shafted when I invest into it. Now i'm probably just going to ignore the entire system cause its not worth it.

[UhhArgh]

1 minute ago, Neightrix said:

MR8 players don't even have half the frames yet, and they may end dumping resources they need for something else. Why should they get to start swapping abilities when they're barely into the game?

That's the issue. MR8 player will be overwhelmed by their current stage in the game with content that can be accessed too early.

Also relating to MR, kindly read quote of mine

 

6 minutes ago, UhhArgh said:

Thanks for your graph mate. I could see it too from your explanation. The MR system and its requirement needs to be reworked first. MR doesn't really determine player's knowledge to the game mechanics and new player already overwhelmed by the game content can be accessed too early. Separation must be made so player keen to every stage of the game, where are they at, what they should do now or next. An example is MR test 14 to 18, really? like we haven't done it in earth before.

 

The core of this broken system is the MR system. I think any upcoming content will always have issue unless the MR system is reworked.

 

[IGN_Maverick]

2 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Try having fun with primaries/secondaries when teammates kill things faster than you can zoom-in or make hundred times moar damage with their melee builds.

This is just you being bad dude, sorry. And you don't think about people who want to play this game solo. Sorry.

[SnakeBadger]

1 hour ago, UhhArgh said:

 

Would agree. even if it still MR 15 or even 20, people can reach 20 less in a month. Some player take their time learning the game thru-out mastery, but lot of people are just speed fodder.

Might wanna use syndicate lock, that way people have more time understanding game mechanics and (hopefully) eventually know what they are doing in the upcoming system. A good example is profit taker. People in this stage already know what they are doing or if not, they will be punished hard.

My solution is: Deimos only accessible for player that already max Little Duck and Onkko. That way it will keep "less experienced player" from accessing deimos too early and take their time learning the game. And also stays addressing deimos to veteran/endgame player

I woulnt lock-out deimos, that wouldn't make the game too fun

[(PSN)Weezking]

So this means that the crappy moves that no one wants like DECOY will not be buffed ?

Instead of the Nerf Hammer on these 6 abilities you could've had buffed the crappy abilities like DECOY .

A buffed ability would've made the choice harder " so do I take roar for Loki and add power strength to my build ?  or do I take this BUFFED UP DECOY and stay in theme ? " 

So lazy , what a great opportunity to buff some weaker abilities .

A weaker Rhino roar or Warcry is still and will always be the better choice over current Decoy, Terrify,  pull ect... 

A weaker Rhino Roar or Warcry is still going to be the top choice to remove Inaros god awful Sandstorm a lower duration Dispenser guess what DE it's still 100x better than having Spectral Scream on Chroma .

Buff the weaker moves DE use the Helminth system to "Mutate" the ability it subsumes and make it do something different so the crappy ones have a fighting chance to get used , stop being so lazy .