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21 minutes ago, IGN_Maverick said:

This is intellectually dishonest in my opinion. Valkyr has a completely different feel and stats than other frames, plus her exalted weapon. Then you make the mistake of " I play Valkyr this way because it's the most durable, so everyone it's playing it like this ". Maybe people are playing Valkyr differently. Who knows.
 

The problem here is, DE keeps fixing the bad part of their design decision by runining the good part in order to equate the two. It's dumb.

 

And creates animosity among the playerbase. Just look at this forum post.

I was being narrow minded about the playstyle of valkyr, for which I apologize but also to an extent still stand by. I'm a math nerd. I want big numbers as fast as possible. And it's my assumption that many of the the "MIN-MAX"ers are in a similar boat. Valkyr does have variety in her kit, all frames do; However one has to ask "How much of that is relevant?" I look at her abilities and see a trend. 1= Cheap Mobility/single targert control. 2= major melee speed boost, minor cc, armor buff. 3= Mediocre CC, decent with augment. 4= Temporary sustain ability to dish out damage, replenish health, and reposition. Her kit screams Melee! Berserker! Tank! to me.   But a frame like wisp walks up, who already has better Sustain and cc, borrows THE berserker ability from Valkyr and can reach similar if not better results with little sacrifice and easier management. True it's done with different methods and playstyles but my focus in on the results.

 

Other than that, I fully agree. It feels like they forget that they make a power fantasy and try to create unnecessary balance that only hurts player experience.

Yeah, the forums are a beast of their own, it seems. It's honestly shocking sometimes to see the hostility and short mindedness in what's usually a calm community. I'm still new to the forums so I can't really critique much more.

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21 minutes ago, oohshiny said:

Here's some quick graphs I pulled together regarding what weapons are available at what MR:

unknown.png

50% of Prime weapons are available at MR11. The majority are at MRs 10, 12 and 14.

unknown.png

Not counting Archguns, Kitguns or Zaws, 50% of non-prime weapons are available at MR7. (Strictly speaking, Kuva weapons are available at MR5, but their listed MR is much higher.)

Apart from Rivens, mastery rank requirements are very heavily clustered at MR8 and under; new players are absolutely drowning in choice, and I constantly see people asking for guidance because they feel lost. Adding Helminth at MR8 will only make things worse for them.

Thanks for your graph mate. I could see it too from your explanation. The MR system and its requirement needs to be reworked first. MR doesn't really determine player's knowledge to the game mechanics and new player already overwhelmed by the game content can be accessed too early. Separation must be made so player keen to every stage of the game, where are they at, what they should do now or next. An example is MR test 14 to 18, really? like we haven't done it in earth before.

 

The core of this broken system is the MR system. I think any upcoming content will always have issue unless the MR system is reworked.

Edited by UhhArgh
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18 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Revert the MR changes to the Helminth system.

 

Whilst the vocal minority who willingly keeps themselves in the lower MRs will be sacrificed...~snip~

 

MR 16 and I wouldn't mind having it be limited to 20 so I have more than half a reason to bother doing those MR tests I have piled up.

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Just now, Neightrix said:

MR8 players don't even have half the frames yet, and they may end dumping resources they need for something else. Why should they get to start swapping abilities when they're barely into the game?

This is another GREAT reason to lock such a system to a higher MR.

With the sheer amount of gear we have, MR 15 isn't even hard to work up to if you want to.

Like.. its not for elitism, its for the health of the game and the new players not being overwhelmed and hurt with a bad experience

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Kingsmount:

What the hell DE.

A lot of abilities needed BUFFS.

Yet instead, you go around NERFING abilities?

What the hell?

Why the hell would you nerf these things when they're just fine on other frames?  When you can't stack the damage buff?  WHEN YOU'RE REPLACING ONE OF YOUR ABILITIES for this ability that's just fine on someone else?  My disappointment is immeasurable. 

You completely wiped any excitement I felt towards this update.  And I was excited, for once. It got me to play the game again in anticipation.

 

This is a frigging PVE game.  LET US HAVE FUN SOMETIMES,  It's always nerf this and nerf that.  ffs.  Rarely any focus on making things fun, instead you hyperfocus on some nebulous concept of balance through limitation instead of entertainment. 

 

Yet now I'll just go play Remnant from the Ashes.

Come on, share your wisdom, how would you buff things like decoy or air burst to be preferable to curent roar?
I'm very excited to see you trying.

With your definition of fun, we would still have things like miraculor, old Blade storm, World of Fire, Blessing, Sound Wave etc, etc.
Yeah, that is fun - for one player, while the rest of the team struggles to find enemies.


Even with DE trying to balance, things are horrible at the moment.. Join a PUG with low/mediocre gear and try to have fun/contribute when there's also a player with top-meta gear  in the mission.
Try to have fun with a Support/CC-frame, that is absolutely not needed at the moment, because DPS/Tanks rule all.
 

Try having fun with primaries/secondaries when teammates kill things faster than you can zoom-in or make hundred times moar damage with their melee builds.
 

And yet, even in this situation, people like you still think more power equals more fun.

Utterly incomprehensible.

Go play your Remnant from the Ashes.

Edited by Sahansral
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4 minutes ago, (XB1)DeathwishDragon said:

But a frame like wisp walks up, who already has better Sustain and cc, borrows THE berserker ability from Valkyr and can reach similar if not better results with little sacrifice and easier management.

I do agree on this particular aspect. But don't you think that Valkyr can be buffed too following the same logic? I mean, Valkyr can still take 1 ability from another frame or am I  missing something here? That would open up many different scenarios. Anyways DE is nerfing for another reason, so we are discussing just our personal views.

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1 minute ago, Neightrix said:

MR8 players don't even have half the frames yet, and they may end dumping resources they need for something else. Why should they get to start swapping abilities when they're barely into the game?

That's the issue. MR8 player will be overwhelmed by their current stage in the game with content that can be accessed too early.

Also relating to MR, kindly read quote of mine

 

6 minutes ago, UhhArgh said:

Thanks for your graph mate. I could see it too from your explanation. The MR system and its requirement needs to be reworked first. MR doesn't really determine player's knowledge to the game mechanics and new player already overwhelmed by the game content can be accessed too early. Separation must be made so player keen to every stage of the game, where are they at, what they should do now or next. An example is MR test 14 to 18, really? like we haven't done it in earth before.

 

The core of this broken system is the MR system. I think any upcoming content will always have issue unless the MR system is reworked.

 

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2 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Try having fun with primaries/secondaries when teammates kill things faster than you can zoom-in or make hundred times moar damage with their melee builds.

This is just you being bad dude, sorry. And you don't think about people who want to play this game solo. Sorry.

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1 hour ago, UhhArgh said:

 

Would agree. even if it still MR 15 or even 20, people can reach 20 less in a month. Some player take their time learning the game thru-out mastery, but lot of people are just speed fodder.

Might wanna use syndicate lock, that way people have more time understanding game mechanics and (hopefully) eventually know what they are doing in the upcoming system. A good example is profit taker. People in this stage already know what they are doing or if not, they will be punished hard.

My solution is: Deimos only accessible for player that already max Little Duck and Onkko. That way it will keep "less experienced player" from accessing deimos too early and take their time learning the game. And also stays addressing deimos to veteran/endgame player

I woulnt lock-out deimos, that wouldn't make the game too fun

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So this means that the crappy moves that no one wants like DECOY will not be buffed ?

Instead of the Nerf Hammer on these 6 abilities you could've had buffed the crappy abilities like DECOY .

A buffed ability would've made the choice harder " so do I take roar for Loki and add power strength to my build ?  or do I take this BUFFED UP DECOY and stay in theme ? " 

So lazy , what a great opportunity to buff some weaker abilities .

A weaker Rhino roar or Warcry is still and will always be the better choice over current Decoy, Terrify,  pull ect... 

A weaker Rhino Roar or Warcry is still going to be the top choice to remove Inaros god awful Sandstorm a lower duration Dispenser guess what DE it's still 100x better than having Spectral Scream on Chroma .

Buff the weaker moves DE use the Helminth system to "Mutate" the ability it subsumes and make it do something different so the crappy ones have a fighting chance to get used , stop being so lazy .

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2 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

With your definition of fun, we would still have things like miraculor, old Blade storm, World of Fire, Blessing, Sound Wave etc, etc.
Yeah, that is fun - for one player, while the rest of the team struggles to find enemies.

Basically you called out abilities that works only until Pluto normal mode.

Also can I remibd you this Is a game that demands to find the best way to clear rooms? This Is a farming game, not Chess.

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Just now, SnakeBadger said:

I woulnt lock-out deimos, that wouldn't make the game too fun

agreed, locking that much content behind a massive grind wall may just make more people quit, and who wants to farm 2 of the most annoying syndicates in the game just to unlock more grind.

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The only problem I have is with the lowered MR. Why wasn't it good at MR15? As you advertised this system is for experienced players, at MR8 a player is still maybe 20 hours into the game, and has no experience whatsoever. They don't have the resources either, nor the frames. Even for a MR15 player its gonna be a challenge to climb the ranks for the Helminth since they will still lack and need a lot of loot. And by lowering the MR for everything you wonder why players burn through game modes and content so fast, not everything should be for everyone. But that's only my 2 cents on it. otherwise I'm still looking forward for the update. Hope it won't get DElayed.

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Honestly, there are enough exceptions to rules. We need more stability in systems, so we know what we're getting into from the face of things. If you, DE, aren't comfortable with the power you were handing over with roar and eclipse and such, you shouldn't nerf them, you just shouldn't have included them in the system in the first place.

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nerfing subsumed abilities on frames they didn't originate is basically saying 'it was a bad fit for the frame it was designed for'. I can rhino roar my squad mates and buff any frame they use; why would buffing myself be treated any differently (i.e less effective)? If you're going to make rhino's subsume ability his roar, then nerf it, why even bother choosing roar? It's just an arbitrary damage increase; change it to stomp instead and it will be far more useful on other frames without being yet another pointless power creep. 

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11 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

  • Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
  • Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
  • Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

The highest MR requirement in the game for certain weapons and rivens is 16. And that´s perfectly fine, something to work for.

Give new players also a chance to experience "pure" frames the way they were intended. I would actually suggest to RAISE the MR requirement for the helminth system to 18 or even 20. This is nothing to play around with as long as your ressource pool is small and frames still hard to get.

You know what I would have done at MR8? I would have sacrificed every new frame to boost my Mesa Prime because at this point I was convinced that there is no better frame than her. And now that we´ve all facepalmed, think about this.

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Just now, Sahansral said:

Come on, share your wisdom, how would you buff things like decoy or air burst to be preferable to curent roar?
I'm very excited to see you trying.

With your definition of fun, we would still have things like miraculor, old Blade storm, World of Fire, Blessing, Sound Wave etc, etc.
Yeah, that is fun - for one player, while the rest of the team struggles to find enemies.


Even with DE trying to balance, things are horrible at the moment.. Join a PUG with low/mediocre gear and try to have fun/contribute when there's also a player with top-meta gear  in the mission.
Try to have fun with a Support/CC-frame, that is absolutely not needed at the moment, because DPS/Tanks rule all.
 

Try having fun with primaries/secondaries when teammates kill things faster than you can zoom-in or make hundred times moar damage with their melee builds.
 

And yet, even in this situation, people like you still think more power equals more fun.

Utterly incomprehnsible.

Go play your Remnant from the Ashes.

Your entire argument is "My team mate too strong" Solo exist. and the majority of people use it. it a good thing when there are stronger team mate killing thing for you in a PVE LOOTER SHOOTER.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb IGN_Maverick:

This is just you being bad dude, sorry. And you don't think about people who want to play this game solo. Sorry.

Nice picking only this sentence out of my response.
But I can assure you that it has nothing to do with my ability to aim but with the kill speed of certain frames/meele weapons.

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