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The Helminth: Dev Workshop


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33 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

No ultimates. I still don't understand why they didn't go with Charge. It fits right in with the system and they wouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to find a value/balance on an impossible to balance ability.

Calling stomp an 'ultimate' is rather silly. If anything Roar would fit that bill more for Rhino.

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my main gripe is the MR requirement change. I have no problem with newer players, but I feel that reducing the requirement so drastically causes a bunch of problems:

firstly, most players at MR8 are still unaware of how a lot of the game works, and the chance of them accidentally subsuming a warframe is high. it's also more costly for them if they lose a frame as they will have less to choose from and may find it harder to get that frame again than a veteran player would.

second, the fact that DE changed it AFTER advertising it as "for veterans" is what's leaving a sour taste in people's mouths. at this point, whenever DE advertise something as "for veterans" I'm going to roll my eyes and respond sarcastically, because time and time again, it gets reworked to become new-player friendly.

third, because they keep making everything newbie-friendly, they aren't spacing out content effectively: if they locked certain modes behind MR ranks, newer players would have something to work towards and wouldn't leave out of boredom or burn themselves out as much. right now newer players get totally overwhelmed with how much there is to do so they'll try to do it all at once, realize how much time and effort it takes, and then burn out as a result. there wouldn't be "content droughts" if they kept encouraging players to up their MR to access new, harder game modes; but at this point I think it's far too late to implement such a system now.

as for the abilities themselves, even a nerfed version of a good ability is better than a trash ability. there will still be plenty of people putting on Roar simply because it's better than X and/or because they can't think of anything better to use instead.

 

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I fully understand it. Some frames would benefit enormously without those nerfs. my only concern is i hope to build all in one inaros, not to build him extra durable, but to add some utility or useful skills, cause i like to play with one frame an not switch all the time

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They chose the best option? The best option would've been to release the system with no nerfs or buffs and see which frames they need to rework/change/tweak after gathering data about what's being used and on what...

They just chose the easiest approach that dissapointed many of us and guess what... DE doesn't seem to care 😞

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il y a 2 minutes, Isokaze_BestKaze a dit :

I'm absolutely not convinced by this.

By MR8, unless you get Hydron-carried, you should have unlocked a lot of good weapons and frame and finished unlocking the starchart. You should have a good grasp of the game mechanics too. 

 

I understand that MR15 would be a good requirement to push players into actually trying to unlock their MR. But people are completely over-reacting. Since when lowering the requirement is negative for veteran players ? Again, WHAT DO THEY LOSE ?

Getting higher MR is still useful anyway. It makes the grind of new weapons and frame less annoying because it gives initial mod space. It also unlock access to Rivens, some liches weapons (and people ACTUALLY COMPLAINED that Liches weapons MR requirement was too high lmao), and daily standing cap.

Thing is, one more time, DE proved us right.. they said it was for veterans player but its not, they said they won't change things, but they do, anyway, like always, DE do crap. it could be available at Mr 1 i would not give a f***, but i'm tired of seing them doing sh*t like that..
They always choose the easy way, nerfing the few good ones instead of buffing or reworking whats wrong, they always nerf things that are supposedly "to hard" so that newb/new players can easily do it...

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2 minutes ago, m3stuart said:

I've seen many peeps saying that these abilities will be nerfed (which they will). However i am wondering, will they be nerfed on main Warframes only or nerfed only when transfered ?

Only transferred of course, nerfing the og for the Helminth system would create such outrage that DE would go out of business. 

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2 hours ago, Samhel said:

They chose the best option? The best option would've been to release the system with no nerfs or buffs and see which frames they need to rework/change/tweak after gathering data about what's being used and on what...

They just chose the easiest approach that dissapointed many of us and guess what... DE doesn't seem to care 😞

Yes i whose thinking the same thing and ita a shame if others dont see in that way. Because after all what is the point changing power if they did this from the beginning... 

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On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why?  Why do this?  Maybe I hallucinated it but I thought I remembered hearing during the TennoCon reveal that abilities weren't going to be nerfed or changed based around their effects in the helminth system.  Am I just wrong?  Did I mis-hear that?  Because I feel like this is EXACTLY what we were promised wouldn't be happening. 

The mastery rank changes feel like a bad idea because if you want you can pretty easily hit even rank 8 within a couple weeks of playing and I don't know if that's gonna be enough time for new players to really grasp the seriousness of subsuming a frame or to understand how these abilities will interact.

This honestly feels like a slap in the face to all of us who were excited about the new system.  It's like being promised a Double Chocolate Fudge Lava Cake and then being given a Vanilla Cupcake with Chocolate Icing.  It's still nice to get something but it's frustrating to get what feels like so much LESS that what was promised.  There were a thousand better ways to do this.   The EASIEST would have just been to not tell us what the abilities that could be subsumed were until the balancing was solved.  This though? This just feels cruel, you give us a week or more to imagine up all the cool stuff we could do with these abilities and what frames we might put what on and then yank the rug out from under us? Why?

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Just now, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

I'm absolutely not convinced by this.

By MR8, unless you get Hydron-carried, you should have unlocked a lot of good weapons and frame and finished unlocking the starchart. You should have a good grasp of the game mechanics too. 

 

I understand that MR15 would be a good requirement to push players into actually trying to unlock their MR. But people are completely over-reacting. Since when lowering the requirement is negative for veteran players ? Again, WHAT DO THEY LOSE ?

Getting higher MR is still useful anyway. It makes the grind of new weapons and frame less annoying because it gives initial mod space. It also unlock access to Rivens, some liches weapons (and people ACTUALLY COMPLAINED that Liches weapons MR requirement was too high lmao), and daily standing cap.

The problem is that the increase MR requirement has two "teams" if you will.

Team New Player Exp: Consists of people who are worried that MR 8 is a bit low for people who are not entirely experienced with all of the games systems. I have first hand experience with a friend who is currently MR 10, and I still find myself explaining many details and systems of the game to him, such as Eidolons, Syndicates, Orb Mothers, etc. He achieved this rank by primarily building weapons and completing the Star Chart rather than Warframes. The Helminth System requires a good amount of experience with Warframes, having built them, used them, tested them, etc. In order to fully realize what you don't like and do like about their abilities to change. MR 15 is just that little bit more of experience from crafting and using Warframes (hopefully) that will allow them to become experienced in this.

then there is

Team I'm MR29 and only I should be able to use this: This is what you are questioning, rightfully so, having a MR requirement that high is simply ridiculous as you need to have vaulted warframes and weapons, events weapons and have max standing pretty much everywhere in order to reach this rank.

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I think people are overreacting, but DE have done two things that have caught people by surprise. The first was to pick certain abilities that are obvious stand outs from the other abilities on the list. The second was to say they would buff weak abilities, followed by only two buffs and then six nerfs (albeit only to the donated abilities, not to the original frames). At this point there are more nerfs than buffs. There hasn't just been discussion and feedback on no-brainer strong abilities, but also weak abilities that players predict will never be picked.

Having said that, we don't know how much they will be adjusted and how (if at all) the calculus for subsuming them will be affected, and these are not nerfs to anything people have now, they are nerfs to potential builds that people are imagining. I kind of wonder what exactly people are imagining 😛. Are people really looking forward that much to sticking Roar on everything?

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Giving us a list of the abilities that we will be able to subsume, knowing that we're gonna farm the good frames ASAP, as we were all hyped with this system. Then nerfing the favorite abilities of everyone.

You always have to do this. No one is ever happy with you. Why couldn't you just think about the list before killing all our hype like that? Do you even care about the players? Don't you realize that we just want to have dumb fun with the new system and create amazing synergies? Why do you try to kill everyone's fun/balance the very system that looked pretty decent and attracted many players like that? It's like shooting yourself in the foot. You're already doing harm and this hasn't even begun yet.

I can't wait to use Loki's decoy or Frost's Ice wave while wearing my nerfed Xoris instead of using that efficient ability that would upgrade by gameplay but is for suuuure terrible enough for the game to nerf it before it even comes out. Also I've seen right now that the helminth system will also be blocked behind rank 3 of a syndicate.

EDIT: Seems like someone is editing my message because I pointed out that you should try to play your game.

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1 minute ago, DangerouslyDisturbed said:

Why?  Why do this?  Maybe I hallucinated it but I thought I remembered hearing during the TennoCon reveal that abilities weren't going to be nerfed or changed based around their effects in the helminth system.  Am I just wrong?  Did I mis-hear that?  Because I feel like this is EXACTLY what we were promised wouldn't be happening. 

The mastery rank changes feel like a bad idea because if you want you can pretty easily hit even rank 8 within a couple weeks of playing and I don't know if that's gonna be enough time for new players to really grasp the seriousness of subsuming a frame or to understand how these abilities will interact.

This honestly feels like a slap in the face to all of us who were excited about the new system.  It's like being promised a Double Chocolate Fudge Lava Cake and then being given a Vanilla Cupcake with Chocolate Icing.  It's still nice to get something but it's frustrating to get what feels like so much LESS that what was promised.  There were a thousand better ways to do this.   The EASIEST would have just been to not tell us what the abilities that could be subsumed were until the balancing was solved.  This though? This just feels cruel, you give us a week or more to imagine up all the cool stuff we could do with these abilities and what frames we might put what on and then yank the rug out from under us? Why?

the powers on the original frames wouldnt be tuched

and this was supposed to buff the power not nerf them, meaning that placing a power back onto the frame that it came from would have also been an option, but now it isnt

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Bruh they seriously giving MR8s acess to endgame stuff

This keeps happening this powercreep. MR8s getting access to the fulmin 

MR5s getting acess to kuva weapons 

Mr2s getting access to scarlet spear and getting max rank arcane energizes 

I don't mind the nerfs we all saw it coming 

Maybe they should have chosen less strong abilities to subsume so they didn't have to deal with this exact scenario in the first place. I actually wanted valkyrs ripclaw and rhino's charge I do enough damage already I don't need buffs to help prove that I like utility abilties. Im still excited cus my favorite ability won't be touched but I won't mention it here in fear of nerfs but this is not looking good for this update.

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2 hours ago, Samhel said:

They chose the best option? The best option would've been to release the system with no nerfs or buffs and see which frames they need to rework/change/tweak after gathering data about what's being used and on what...

They just chose the easiest approach that dissapointed many of us and guess what... DE doesn't seem to care 😞

But then youd have ppl complaining that de nerfed their setups they put time and effort to while using the system. We dont have the numbers yet so why should we be getting the torches out now before anything is finalized other than the list of abilities 

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il y a 2 minutes, Kald-Wing a dit :

Team I'm MR29 and only I should be able to use this

Most high MR people I know are nice guys who help other people.

The other high MR people I know are solo players who absolutely don't care about MR requirement and such.

Everyone knows MR8 is too low, the help chat will become a war zone after the launch.

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6 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:


Team New Player Exp: Consists of people who are worried that MR 8 is a bit low for people who are not entirely experienced with all of the games systems. I have first hand experience with a friend who is currently MR 10, and I still find myself explaining many details and systems of the game to him, such as Eidolons, Syndicates, Orb Mothers, etc. He achieved this rank by primarily building weapons and completing the Star Chart rather than Warframes. The Helminth System requires a good amount of experience with Warframes, having built them, used them, tested them, etc. In order to fully realize what you don't like and do like about their abilities to change. MR 15 is just that little bit more of experience from crafting and using Warframes (hopefully) that will allow them to become experienced in this.

That’s what I’m worried about. Even with warnings some people may subsume their frame not realizing that it’s gone for good. I just hope DE installs something or a small tutorial so at least they have an idea of what they’re getting into.

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45 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

No ultimates. I still don't understand why they didn't go with Charge. It fits right in with the system and they wouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to find a value/balance on an impossible to balance ability.

But "no ultimates" is a completely arbitrary restriction put in place by DE. They didn't have to do this. There's quite a few frames where the 4th isn't all that great or the best part of their kit. So why even have that restriction in the first place?

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"We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system."

 

I'm so glad DE have finally made some content exclusivley for only those very experienced players who have played for over a week. Impressive.

What kind of joke is this meant to be, keep the MR requirement at 15.

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10 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

I'm absolutely not convinced by this.

By MR8, unless you get Hydron-carried, you should have unlocked a lot of good weapons and frame and finished unlocking the starchart. You should have a good grasp of the game mechanics too. 

 

I understand that MR15 would be a good requirement to push players into actually trying to unlock their MR. But people are completely over-reacting. Since when lowering the requirement is negative for veteran players ? Again, WHAT DO THEY LOSE ?

Getting higher MR is still useful anyway. It makes the grind of new weapons and frame less annoying because it gives initial mod space. It also unlock access to Rivens, some liches weapons (and people ACTUALLY COMPLAINED that Liches weapons MR requirement was too high lmao), and daily standing cap.

i already said this, but i will repeat, mr 15 isnt high enough to be a problem for most players, it will, however, serve as a barrier of entry to new players, which is the point of the MR system to begin with. most of the earlier MRs take a day or so to unlock, its not uncommon to have a mr8 in less than a month of play(some even in less than 3 weeks), which might sound like alot, but for games like warframe, it REALLY ISNT.

mr 8 might not even be enough to grasp the mod system! remember, most of the starchart can be completed without using a forma... i know this because my fist forma was used because i got my first riven on the war within a few years ago.

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I'll wait to see what the final nerfed values are before judging too harshly. I can't imagine DE nerfing the numbers to such a degree that it completely invalidates using the subsumption system at all. I have been wrong before, though... Still, this seemingly knee-jerk reaction to some calls for nerfs is disappointing at best.

The MR requirement change seems like an odd choice to me. I'm curious to know the reasoning for choosing MR 8 specifically over MR 15(or any other number in-between).

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