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vor 10 Minuten schrieb Keyhound:


the problem isnt that the community isnt fond of nerfing, its that MANY abilities DEMAND a rework or at least a buff to be usable. i made this post a while back, but,

WHY WOULD ANYONE USE DECOY? specially when molt does the same, buffs speed, removes neg status, and has an aug that heals?
why would anyone use desiccation, when radial blind does the job better? getting 2 health per second?
nobody uses terrify on nekros, its aug COULD be good, but its so limited, its not worth the slot.
nobody likes tempest barrage, i could even go as far as to say, he is full of nice ideas so badly done, it must have been on purpose!
and the list continues...

the problem is not nerf, its that even with the nerfs, the other abilities continue to be e a terrible choice.

Agreed. DE shot themselves in the foot with this one by letting so many bad abilities untouched/subpar in the pool.

Nonetheless, having 6 obvious choices, 20+ mediocre and 10+ bad ones is the worst/boring solution. Those 6 are just too dominant with the current numbers.

So toning these 6 down to have a pool of  26+ viable choices is the best solution in a bad starting position.

Eventually, those 10+ bad abiliities need a massive rework.
 

Edited by Sahansral
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Just now, FluterTree said:

people be complaining about the MR requirement when its going to take 71,000 standing and the daily standing cap for a mr 8 is 9,000. so it would take 8 days of maxing out the standing with them to get to the system, which we dont even know if it requires the planets resourses to craft the system, rank 8 is fine for a number because they will just get board of another syndicate grind like fortuna was

8 days in warframe is not long, 16 days is not long. hell, a month old player isnt long. warframe works on the principle of MMOs. it takes time to develop knowledge. the help chat is filled with mr10s for crap sake. this is not something hard to grasp. begginers should stay away from this system. and it should be barred from them, this is not a "jump in" system like archwings or even the railjack. this is a trade system that will break many players inventories. and it will lead to disaster to alot of them because they dont know enough to make use of it.

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Will now every ability have a 25% chance to activate just like auto-hack? Seems like a good idea!

Both the mr requirement being reduced and the nerfs doenst makes any sense. MR 8 is hardly a month for someone that started playing warframe and is really catchy to it and also at the same time is not enough to get spare resources. The nerfs without even properly testing(Out of star chart and lvl 50 missions cos i think thats what DE test their things on since they dont create/play what is considered end game content) is really sad, and we cant even enjoy it a little bit while its broken and fun. And after all nerfing Roar will just mean people will use Shock Trooper and Smite Infusion instead while for Warcry, it would just make Valkyr useless as a warframe but thats on DE cause they can`t give her a proper rework and thats literally the only ability thats good on her. The thing is that this game is coop PVE after all, no one cares about PVP content, thats why nerfs are never welcome by most people, because what would be reasonable is buffing whats bad instead of nerfing whats good and thats exactly what DE said they would do with all the skills included in this system.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the thing is, we didnt even want roar.... we wanted charge and ripline

Are you daft? No one wants those abilities as subsume options. Charge is only useful on Rhino for Ironclad Charge builds and Ripline is as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Giving us all junk abilities from the get go would have made this system even more worthless.

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1 minute ago, Keyhound said:

the problem is not nerf, its that even with the nerfs, the other abilities continue to be e a terrible choice.

And therein lies the real reasoning for DE introducing and subsequently nerfing this system. Players have no choice but to use these crippled hand-me-downs because the alternatives are just that bad.

I think people(DE included) are forgetting that these abilities are supposed to have some sort of synergy with the frame from which they originate(however arbitrary it may be). In that sense, these powers are already(at least in theory) in a lesser state than when they were with their original owners.

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Just now, Keyhound said:

8 days in warframe is not long, 16 days is not long. hell, a month old player isnt long. warframe works on the principle of MMOs. it takes time to develop knowledge. the help chat is filled with mr10s for crap sake. this is not something hard to grasp. begginers should stay away from this system. and it should be barred from them, this is not a "jump in" system like archwings or even the railjack. this is a trade system that will break many players inventories. and it will lead to disaster to alot of them because they dont know enough to make use of it.

8 days isnt long no, but if they are going out of their way to get the system then clearly they know what they are doing, because 8 days of dedicating yourself to a syndicate for low mr is alot of days

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39 minutes ago, m3stuart said:

I've seen many peeps saying that these abilities will be nerfed (which they will). However i am wondering, will they be nerfed on main Warframes only or nerfed only when transfered ?

 No, they will only be nerfed ONLY on the Infused part, not the frames that OWN the powers itself.

Rhino, will still keep his un-nerfed Roar.

 

Hopefully....

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6 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

Sorry for cursing. I was really surly. I was so hyped for a cool thing to play with. But I vowed that I was done farming syndicate. I quit warframe before, and now it is no different. I am disappointed I even cared.

My hype is killed for other reasons. 

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb Renard:

And after all nerfing Roar will just mean people will use Shock Trooper and Smite Infusion instead while for Warcry,

Shock trooper and Smite infusion are additive bonuses to weapon damage.
Roar is multiplicative and effects damage and skills. Huuuuge difference.

Edited by Sahansral
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1 minute ago, Claric said:

And therein lies the real reasoning for DE introducing and subsequently nerfing this system. Players have no choice but to use these crippled hand-me-downs because the alternatives are just that bad.

I think people(DE included) are forgetting that these abilities are supposed to have some sort of synergy with the frame from which they originate(however arbitrary it may be). In that sense, these powers are already(at least in theory) in a lesser state than when they were with their original owners.

the trully sad thing is, even with synergy, many of them are still bad, and i say this as one of the people who do make use of decoy+teleport on spy missions.

there are too many borderline useless abilities... and then there are borderline useless abilities with far superior equivalents like decoy-molt and desiccation-radial blind.

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4 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Agreed. DE shot themselves in the foot with this one by letting so many bad abilities untouched/subpar in the pool.

Nonetheless, having 6 obvious choices, 20+ mediocre and 10+ bad ones is the worst/boring solution. THose 6 are just too dominant with the current numbers.

So toning these 6 down to have a pool of  26+ viable choices is the best solution in a bad starting position.

Eventually, those 10+ bad  abiliities need a massive rework.
 

The nerfs change nothing though. Roar will still be the overwhelming choice. They'd need to nerf it into complete oblivion for it to be otherwise. So all these nerfs have achieved is kill the hype and make people mad at DE, while changing nothing substantial.

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14 hours ago, (XB1)Faith No 45 said:

 

And, if they are changing it now, it means they'll keep changing it. Why couldn't they buff the rest? 

 

Please tell me, how do you buff Decoy to be a compelling choice over a final damage multiplier on all abilities and weapons at the tap of a button? You don't, you can't, and this argument is silly.

The entire problem with this system is the entire system. You can't mix and match Warframe abilities and somehow expect people to not just jump on the dps bandwagon. Kuva Bramma is the best example. You can't buff a Hind to compete with Bramma, and nerfing the Bramma still doesnt make the Hind more compelling. There are mechanical differences in which one is just always superior than the other. This system is a balance nightmare and I called it as soon as DE showed it on Twitch. Good luck thinking you can make this system not a complete balance mess that disrupts years of foundational expectations on Warframe identity and Warframe ability balance.

Edited by Voltage
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Reverting these changes and instead commit to frame reworks would be the good choice here. Why are you doing this to your game? I'm gonna stop playing after thousands of hours I guess now. It's too much. I trusted DE even with RJ, Kuva liches, reworking warframes soon and soon and soon as I kept saying to myself. I was an adoring fan of the game... But now first time in my years of warframe experience I was totally hyped up for some game mechanic that is finally for experienced players and it's a good one. I literally trusted the devs to do the right choices this time, and I literally believed that they will finally make the game compelling to everyone and that this will change the game and they can finally see which frames need reworking and stuff like that... 😞 😞 😞

And now they showed me, even for me that they never gonna commit to these changes to make the game better for some reason 😞 First time in my warframe experience I am genuienly dissapointed, sad, angry and I want to leave the game right here right now. Only thing that will keep me here is the Heart of Deimos quest and open world and the new frame now. But I'll probably run through those things fast enough to use the helminth along the way, but I won't commit myself to play this further...

I was wasting my time, and after all those years I realized it. I had false hopes in devs that made bad decision after bad decision with the same grim smiles on their faces. 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb LixSin:

The nerfs change nothing though. Roar will still be the overwhelming choice. They'd need to nerf it into complete oblivion for it to be otherwise. So all these nerfs have achieved is kill the hype and make people mad at DE, while changing nothing substantial.

hat's the reason why it was an error to put them into the pool in the first place. It's a catch-22 for DE now. There will be rage.

Yes, they have to nerf them into oblivion for the system to offer any real choice...
I'm very curious for the numbers.

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Just now, Voltage said:

Please tell me, how do you buff Decoy to be a compelling choice over a final damage multiplier on all abilities and weapons at the tap of a button? You don't, you can't, and this argument is silly.

The entire problem with this system is the entire system. You can't mix and match Warframe abilities and somehow expect people to not just jump on the dps bandwagon. Kuva Bramma is the best example. You can't buff a Hind to compete with Bramma, and nerfing the Bramma still doesnt make the Hind more compelling. There are mechanical differences in which one is just always superior than the other.


actually you could do that, and all they would need is revamp the GARBAGE augment. just make the decoy absorb all damage done to loki instead. you then turn it into a utility ability, and a defensive ability at the same time, pointless on an invis frame, but pretty usefull for alot of squishy ones that need a reliable defensive ability.

as for the system, i disagree, for the simple fact that, even with so many bad abilities, you are still able to play around and make FUN combos, like pull into vortex/dome, larva + magnetize, and so on. an ability doesnt need to be best in slot to be useable... it just need to be useable...

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So after a nap and some time to think about what u did last night here are some words...

The "Nerfs": I can understand this and here is why:
1. U open with this *nerfs* the way that the Players take a look to the other Abilitys.   
2. A Ability should on the Frame that it own be the strongest and not on a *sec* frame. If i can use Roar on my Wisp, it shouldnt be that strong as it is on my Rhino. That is ok. If i want the stronges Roar Buff, i need to use Rhino. This is the right way in my opinion.

The other part are the MR-Nerf
This is a point i rly cant understand.
At MR8 u have tons of things to do in this game. U need every ressource u can find and nearly every Frame.
Sure, there are frames that u lvl and delete it cause u dont like it and thats ok. But no. 

I play this game since Hydroid Prime comes out. I saw a lot of things in this game. There are much content for *new* Players that cant handle it. 
With MR5 u can do Railjack, u can do Liches and many others. And u know what? Most LowMR Players got MASSIVE Problems in this content. I saw a few ppl with lowMR that can handle it, most of this are Second-Accounts from ppl with MR29.
And now u will give this ppl the Helmeth System even if thes cant handle most of the other Stuff?

I mean, MR8 is low, u can reach this in like 1 Month? What i 1 Month in Warframe? Its nothing!
So many Mods u dont have, so many Weapons/Frames u havent seen. 

And here comes another Problem: Lets say a MR8 get a good Frame like Wisp or Trinity, and doesnt know how to play/handle this frame. First think many players will do: Feed it after level it. Before they can find out how good a frame is: I need space for another Level-Frame = Here food for u.

I see a big Problem here to give this Feature to lowMR Ppl.
Im sure u will get many new Tickets from ppl that feed his Frame and want it back and most of this tickets will be MR15 and less.

I see another *Problem* here. The moment u sayd in the Stream that this System is for Vets: Most Vets are happy to get a system that is Made for they. Now u put it on MR8 and it doesnt feel anymore Special. Rly, vets want sometime something Special that is only for Vets, i dont see a point to Open Everything for Everyone. If there are 2-3 mechanics in this game that are only for Vets, this is ok. If a new Play want this System to Use, he will start to play more to come to this System. This is a reason for they to make an effort to get there.

This is my Opinion but rly, think about it. 

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On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15)

I seem to recall hearing you guys talk about this system being specifically for high MR players and it would intentionally be locked behind high MR so new players could not access it. Didn't take long to go back on that bit I see. This system should be locked behind MR20. Now accounts that are barely a week old will be able to access it. This is a mistake.

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Just now, -KenSasaki90- said:

So after a nap and some time to think about what u did last night here are some words...

The "Nerfs": I can understand this and here is why:
1. U open with this *nerfs* the way that the Players take a look to the other Abilitys.   
2. A Ability should on the Frame that it own be the strongest and not on a *sec* frame. If i can use Roar on my Wisp, it shouldnt be that strong as it is on my Rhino. That is ok. If i want the stronges Roar Buff, i need to use Rhino. This is the right way in my opinion.

The other part are the MR-Nerf
This is a point i rly cant understand.
At MR8 u have tons of things to do in this game. U need every ressource u can find and nearly every Frame.
Sure, there are frames that u lvl and delete it cause u dont like it and thats ok. But no. 

I play this game since Hydroid Prime comes out. I saw a lot of things in this game. There are much content for *new* Players that cant handle it. 
With MR5 u can do Railjack, u can do Liches and many others. And u know what? Most LowMR Players got MASSIVE Problems in this content. I saw a few ppl with lowMR that can handle it, most of this are Second-Accounts from ppl with MR29.
And now u will give this ppl the Helmeth System even if thes cant handle most of the other Stuff?

I mean, MR8 is low, u can reach this in like 1 Month? What i 1 Month in Warframe? Its nothing!
So many Mods u dont have, so many Weapons/Frames u havent seen. 

And here comes another Problem: Lets say a MR8 get a good Frame like Wisp or Trinity, and doesnt know how to play/handle this frame. First think many players will do: Feed it after level it. Before they can find out how good a frame is: I need space for another Level-Frame = Here food for u.

I see a big Problem here to give this Feature to lowMR Ppl.
Im sure u will get many new Tickets from ppl that feed his Frame and want it back and most of this tickets will be MR15 and less.

I see another *Problem* here. The moment u sayd in the Stream that this System is for Vets: Most Vets are happy to get a system that is Made for they. Now u put it on MR8 and it doesnt feel anymore Special. Rly, vets want sometime something Special that is only for Vets, i dont see a point to Open Everything for Everyone. If there are 2-3 mechanics in this game that are only for Vets, this is ok. If a new Play want this System to Use, he will start to play more to come to this System. This is a reason for they to make an effort to get there.

This is my Opinion but rly, think about it. 

i think i can speak for most pleople complaing about the nerf when i say, the problem isnt the nerf itself, its THE REASON FOR THE NERF. people will gravitate towards warcry and roar, not just because they are amazing abilities... but because the choice is between roar warcry and tempest barrage, decoy, fireblast, and so on...

for the longest time, people have asked DE to make abilities more fun to play, make frames more useable, more survivable, better synergy... this is their answer, and instead of making those bad abilities better, they deicided they would make better abilities worse to compensate.

this isnt raising the bar, its the complete opposite, they are lowering the quality of what we can pick... and it wont even work, because of how bad the other choices are to begin with...

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As a player who is hoping to return soon, revert the changes—back to MR 15, particularly. I don’t think you realize how significantly this impacts the morale of the community, and if you go through with this, it’s the final nail on the coffin for the (huge) player base with the mere hope for end game content. So many people avoid the game entirely because, frankly, there isn’t any. Part of the new player’s experience should be to be able to look forward to later content as they grind out earlier content, but when you present it immediately it simply overwhelms them. 

Edited by Mavelock
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Hmm while I definitely get that just because helminth is coming out we can't expect the dev team to just rework a crazy amount of abilities, I do think some potential was lost here.

What's wrong with her 3 (as a subsumable)?
Mirage's eclipse is both an extremely powerful and relatively not all that useful ability, because you're tied to the lighting in rooms. It's effectiveness is highly dependent on tileset, as some tilesets just give you perma-dmg, and some leave you with damage reduction. The unreliablility of the damage reduction means you have to mod for survivability as if it wasn't there. This leaves the incoming dmg reduction unnecessary, and leaving me personally dissapointed about the dmg multiplier being inactive when you're on a darker tileset.
If the difficulty of use and extreme dmg potential weren't troublesome enough for a subsumable ability, I'd personally argue Eclipse is Mirage's most signature ability. This would be mostly due to the vast amount of videos where people use mirage's 3 dmg buff in the simulacrum, and I hate the fact that it is that way, just like the devs do, but I won't deny that it still influences the way people see Mirage (tho this point of signature is very personal).

What do you suggest instead?
Well her 1 is her strongest ablilty so not that, and her 4 is out of the question.
I think there was massive potential to rework her 2, and put that in there. Why? Not just for the sake of mirage, but also imo, there's a lot of dmg buffing abilities on a lot of frames. And while there's nothing wrong with that, it means that for a system like this, a dmg buffing ability doesn't create more interesting ways to play the game. I'd say there's enough subsumable dmg buffs, and enough frames with unsubsumable dmg buffing abilities, where the only reason eclipse would be used, is if it does MORE dmg buffing than another. I believe there's not really anything like her 2 in the game, which would open up new ways of playing.

What would you do to her 2?
Vaguely put? Buff the damage, add damage scaling (because otherwise it'll be a nuke <x lvl, useless >y lvl ability).
Personal recommendation: give it %based true damage, like currently on trinities 2. Something like 25~30% base, but as long as it's just low enough that you can't hit 100% with max power strength.
Give the mines a short fuze/arming timer, something around 0.5~2.0secs. This would allow you to use them as makeshift grenades when need be, but in a way where you always 'feel' like it wasn't meant to do that. It is and should be a mine, at least in principle. For use around defence objectives and as CC this would work easily and excellently.
For the augment, I'd say think Ivara's power of three. Increase the energy cost a bit, put down 3 of the mines, optionally nerf the base damage with the augment down to 15~20%. This would increase CC capability, improve effectiveness as a whole, but maybe nerfing damage/energy and grenade usage potential.

Of course I understand that defining exact numbers, and implementing this would take ages. It would be silly to expect DE to so radically rework abilities for this system. However if they look at Mirage or Mirage's subsumable in the future, I hope that they look at this post and at least consider my idea.

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