The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[M4T2E]

14 hours ago, mikakor said:

you know, not everyone no life the game. some people have a work. some people have a life.

Some people call me the space cowboy, YEAH! (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Back to topic ... MR29 could be to high, but MR8 is just to low!

[Pawgasm]

15 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

 

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

So.....

 

DE is making the only useful and viable abilities..... Much less useful than they could be...

 

DE needs to Stop listening to the whining babies that cry out "OmG, ThIs iS OvErPoWeReD"

 

The fact that Steel Path exists proves that things being "Overpowered" is a bloody myth.  

This is a terrible change and just makes the whole system look bloody useless.

What am I gonna do, Put Mind Control on a frame?  Or just do what everyone else is gonna do and put Firewalker on Grendel for the memes?

Way to ruin the hype.

[Sahansral]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Keyhound:

i think you missedd the point i made, its not meant to make it ON PAR with roar, its supposed to give frames that need survivability a solid choice. not every frame needs roar, but roar does give enough boost to be great on pretty much any frame you put it on.

which is why roar is considered the default choice. because its good no matter what. sometimes, being able to survive is more important than overkilling an enemy. and i bet, it would make it a better choice for certain frames that do not need extra dmg.

Well fine, then let's switch to Defy (one of the powerful six) if you want to consider only survivalbility. How do you want to make Decoy a viable alternative to Defy for those squishy frames (which needs no augment to do it's magic)?

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

Well you're getting plenty of well deserved flak for the Mr changes and nerfs.

But as far the buffs you have, while you're buffing well of life can you add One handed casting that doesn't disrupt movement to the list? 

In a largely movement based game such as warframe the fact that they're are still abilities that bring everything you do to a halt is astounding.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

3 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Well fine, then let's switch to Defy if you want to consider only survivalbility. How do you want to make Decoy a viable alternative to Defy for those squishy frames (which needs no augment to do it's magic)?

The decoy needs to at least scale with enemy level and Loki's equipped mods. Make it so it won't vanish instantly when a Grineer sneezes at it.

[RGZephyrus]

that mr requirement is too low considering that alot of stuff can already be unlocked af MR 5 or 7+ at best(with exception for weapon), like kuva lich and railjack,which without those two itself the game barely give any tutorial and those stuff can be overwhelming for new players and with the reduced mr requirement for helminth system to 8 that increase the overwhelming stuff for new player,this think alone can make new players leave the game faster as they already did every stuff that supposed to be endgame but they can access it earlier due to that low mr requirement

[Keyhound]

4 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Well fine, then let's switch to Defy if you want to consider only survivalbility. How do you want to make Decoy a viable alternative to Defy for those squishy frames (which needs no augment to do it's magic)?

defy does give a good survivability, but its also armor, something that other frames can get their hands on through other means, i would even say, ease of use might be a reason to pick decoy, as it also creates a clone that draw enemies.

and again, it doesnt need to be the best survivability ability, it just need to give another choice at doing it, that is diferent. null star can give 90% DM, but some people dont like it due to how the skill works.

more options for survivability is better than not doing anything but creating an agro dummy.

[IGN_Maverick]

1 minute ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

The decoy needs to at least scale with enemy level and Loki's equipped mods. Make it so it won't vanish instantly when a Grineer sneezes at it.

On top of that, read some people on reddit being excited about Decoy honestly because they have really good ideas on how to use it. The point here is, why even bothering putting the limitation of 1 damage buffing ability on frame ( that was a good one imo ) if you are nerfing them?
 

The problem is not even damage buff lets be clear, its damage reduction. That needs to have a high cap to be effective, and we all know that.

[Sylonus]

Just wanted to chime in and say I was super excited for this system, now I am not at all, it now seems very meh, I'll still probably do it, but it's going to be, "I guess this is slightly better." instead of fun and exciting, meh, meh, meh, boring.

[IRVoidGuru]

2 hours ago, Dragmod said:

MR24 actually. Would be higher, but I havent had any real need to max out the last of the armory.

As for experience, I have just under 3600 hours in game. Granted, a good majority of that is Fashionframe and experimenting with loadouts. I'm very much a "very experienced Warframe player", I just dont understand the feeling that DE needs to pander to me because of it.

Yet you see pandering to the low level players to be.....acceptable? In a game that involves low intermediate and high end players why do we mostly see content pander to the lowest level? 

With your MR and hours im shocked to see a player who has actually accomplished these things having this opinion.  Im at 9k hours and 29. Id like to see content geared towards players who give effort beyond the complacent mentality of " i don't need to lvl or get stronger or smarter cuz i have these really limited item, game isn't worth doing more anyway"

Do you feel that players who dedicate far more effort should not have any effort made towards us?

[Ghastmen]

On 2020-08-12 at 6:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.

One of my friend just started the game and almost on mr 8 and he dont even know what is going on new players are full of content and they dont really know the half of its already overwhelming why you give the a "end game" and take it from us make it at least mr16 and stop the veterans from leaving the game please!!!!

 

[FluterTree]

2 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

and? because something easier to do has lower % doesnt mean mr pointless. it just means, people arent interested in doing it.

i was just trying to point out how low mr players arnt going to dedicate themselves to get something new even if its mr 0

 

its rank 3 (4) in the new syndicate to get the helmitch and takes 8 days + credits + resources to get to the rank required for it, changing from saying low MR to vets... A vet of the game is more likely to spend the time and resources to get to the new system no matter what rank they are, if someone has MR 8 because thats the cap for prime frames and is willing to put the time and effort into getting the new system then they clearly know what the risks are with it.

if you have an issue with the MR being too low then you should be asking for it to be higher in the syndicate because then only dedicated players will have it including dedicated mr 8 players who might just be vets who dont care to rank up mr

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

I can sorta see why you would nerf Damage or Speed.   But range???   You realize those abilities get balanced on their own by the mods we use.  Not every frame's kit is going to sync up with helminth infused abilities which will already make them non max.... 

[HawkFang022]

A system that was not designed for new players. Ha, ha, ha what a good joke that was. for a few days we were led to believe that mastery mattered again. It would seem that that was just a second elusive dream.

This is why Warframe can't keep its veteran players there is simply nowhere for them to go. What the point in accumulating all this power if there are no enemies or challenges in where to use them. When are you going to start rewarding your long-time and/or dedicated players?

 I understand your need for all-inclusive however there is also a thing known as progression.

What is the end game of Warframe, oh yeah wait there is none. What is that you want to Max out your builds don't bother the only way it can be used buy remaining in a survival mission for hours on end race. Such fun (satire)

[Casardis]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.

Mr 8 at this point is still considered quite a new player for many. You can reach that MR so fast now. Even if it's locked behind the grind of the Entrati, playing in Deimos isn't MR-locked. This may not be as bad as liches, but it's still way too early.

I hope you don't double down on that decision after saying so many times that this "isn't for new players". This is quite a disappointing change since for once, we thought you were finally gearing a system more with veterans in mind. Above all else, this will be yet another system to overwhelm new players, even with the Entrati grind wall.

Here's a little suggestion that I think can be quite sensible: MR 8 to unlock Helminth abilities injection; MR 15 to Subsume Warframes. I think it's a good middle ground if you absolutely want to keep the low mr8 entry.

[IGN_Maverick]

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Do you feel that players who dedicate far more effort should not have any effort made towards us?

Kinda. The problem here is that players are the customers, not the employes. That means that if you wanna play 9000 hours it's your problem and you don't need a special reward for it. BUT, of course you're gonna achieve far more than someone that has 3000 hours or 500.

What I'm trying to say is that it's up to you not wanting to level up your MR but you're gonna have to deal with not having rewards on par with who does it. That said, the progression system is not appealing at all. What I get from leveling up MR is more gear to level up and some standings cap increase. 

So I see where your point is coming from, but I don't like to endorse it on the system HOW IT IS. If we had a great progression system, yeah, then I'm 100% with you.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, Aguzo said:

I don't want to get on anyone's bad side. However, some of you need to learn how to compromise

 

New MR requirement for Helminth

Summary: Changing the MR requirement from 15 to 8 shouldn't ruin anyone's mood. Exclusivity is dumb anyway, and elitism is pretty toxic. It's a game, relax and have fun.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Firstly, the game is subject to change, whenever. DE changing their minds on the MR requirement for the helminth, should not be the end of the world. Take a breather my dudes.

Why would they change it? Who knows, they more than likely discussed it. It's not as if they change their minds for no reason. Highly possible that new players who watched their livestream are mostly interested in the Heart of Deimos update. That includes the the new helminth system.

Changing the MR lock from 15 to 8 shouldn't ruin anyone's mood. Exclusivity is dumb anyway, and elitism is pretty toxic. It's a game, relax and have fun.

 

Ah yes, expecting all content in a game to be immediately accessible to someone who just starts playing is totally reasonable.  Why have meaningful and understandable progression?  If people don't have access to everything when they want it it'll hurt their feelings 😞

2 hours ago, Aguzo said:

The "nerfs" to subsumable abilities
Summary: Instead of removing some of the subsumable abilities (like others wanted), they lowered their values, so that the originals owners would still be at the top. This is called compromise.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So DE makes a new system, to let y'all mess around and make interesting builds.

One side didn't want certain abilities in the mix, because they basically make the original frames irrelevant. I'll play whatever frame I want, because I want to, regardless if they are "S" or "F" tier. However, they were making a fairly reasonable argument. You give rhino's buff away, why use rhino? So it was decided that certain subsumed abilities would be slightly lowered.

Instead of removing some of the subsumable abilities, they lowered some values, so that the originals owners would still be at the top. This is called compromise.

 

Hardly feels like a compromise when the devs put themselves in the hole to begin with.  They could've not chosen those abilities to begin with.  They could have made the base abilities that were undesirable desirable.  This would have improved the base kit and made choosing between which abilities to remove more interesting.  They could have not hard limited to having no 4's.  I don't see how stomp or reckoning would've been game breaking.  They could have made the abilities different on other frames.  Like only getting Grendel's strike buff instead of all 3 buffs.  Or how we're only getting two things from quiver.  Nerfing these abilities is just lazy.  Not compromising.

2 hours ago, Aguzo said:

No developers, in any game, want to make their players unhappy. The update isn't here yet, so don't feel bad about losing something you never had. Everyone should keep an open mind, myself included. Not saying "don't give feedback", just accept that we aren't the only one's who play the game. In my opinion, they chose the best option by not fully removing the abilities, and making the new update more inclusive.

I mean if you want to continue to support bad decisions by DE then by all means do so.  But personally speaking I don't think you have the right to pretend you're being an open minded individual whilst hand waving valid criticism and calling people toxic/elitist just because they expected DE to actually hold true to their wording for once.

[Keyhound]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Yet you see pandering to the low level players to be.....acceptable? In a game that involves low intermediate and high end players why do we mostly see content pander to the lowest level? 

With your MR and hours im shocked to see a player who has actually accomplished these things having this opinion.  Im at 9k hours and 29. Id like to see content geared towards players who give effort beyond the complacent mentality of " i don't need to lvl or get stronger or smarter cuz i have these really limited item, game isn't worth doing more anyway"

Do you feel that players who dedicate far more effort should not have any effort made towards us?

the biggest problem people miss is not that we dont get enough content toward us, but that begginers have access to too much stuff on a game that is bashed for being too complex to new players. in other words, they are making the new player experience worse by giving too many choices that are too complex on top of the game already complex mechanics.

this is one of, if not THE reason people give for abandoning the game early on. its too bloated with stuff that they have no idea what to do with.

and yes, too much of a good thing is bad. its the reason why MMOs dont do that, its not only unecessary, but actually makes the game worse for everyone.

 

[Pawgasm]

15 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

"Had the potential to be the overwhelming choice"

With this phrase in mind specifically... Why does that shock DE at all? 

Yes, Roar is going to be super popular because of it's functionality. 

Yes, Larva is going to be popular because it's a very reliable crowd control.

Yes, Dispenser is going to be popular because Energy is useful, Shocking right?

When compared to the list of Other possible options.. Why would I choose something like Pocket-Sand over Roar when it's placed on Valkyr, for example?

The list goes on, and this is surprising?  Who the hell would choose something like Wind burst, Mind control, or Fireball outside of memes? 

Nerf these abilities too much and honestly, what's the point of even using them? But numbers haven't even been shown, so honestly.. I'm just expecting the worst. 

If DE thinks that Xoris is "OvErPoWeReD" because of how the innate Combo feature works in Warframe's own melee system, then yeah I'll bet DE would think that Roar giving frames an extra 50% Power on average is "OvErPoWeReD" too.

 

Honestly, if DE and it's playerbase are so damn concerned with "Balance" and things being overpowered. Just make every weapon in the game do the exact same thing.

100 damage flat, every damage type. 

Maybe then people will stop screaming. 

Also yes, I'm joking about the 100 damage thing.

[FluterTree]

To be honest this whole talk about MR makes me think of TF2 and unusual hats

"omg he has a unusual he is clearly a vet to the game and is going to kick my ass" 

"omg he has high mr he is clearly a vet because he has a higher number"

 

you could get to the max mr the game has without knowing really whats best or not

[linn4you]

@DE pls consider to delay the helminth Chrysalis system and put it on the testserver instead
it doesn´t feel rdy yet, i mean 128 pages in this thread, last minute changes, no clarifications, 1800+ possible combinations... tenno can help, at least a poll, ty
 

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, FluterTree said:

To be honest this whole talk about MR makes me think of TF2 and unusual hats

"omg he has a unusual he is clearly a vet to the game and is going to kick my ass" 

"omg he has high mr he is clearly a vet because he has a higher number"

 

you could get to the max mr the game has without knowing really whats best or not

dude, you are so wong with that comparisson its not even funny.

MR isnt a mark of being a veteran, but, it is proof of time spent playing. meaning, more used to the game systems. you cant say mr 8 is as good a proof as mr 15 because some people dont do mr tests after 8.

if anything, not only would that be a good excuse to make those players do the mr tests. it would also literally lock players who just reached mr8 in a couple of weeks, and have but a handfull of frames only.

your argument is, " there are mr8s who are veterans". as if that would somehow explain why an mr8  would be enough... and no, the rank 3 on syndicate isnt anywhere near as good either, because of how low the rank 3 reqs are.

[Keyhound]

I belive that if DE wants to bring new players they should do stuff FOCUSED on new players, the same way that if they want to keep old players, they should do stuff FOCUSED on old players.

trying to do things for both is the reason why the railjack failed so hard when it came out. tiered challenges, so begginers have stuff for them, and veterans do as well. you dont need to offer everything and the kitchen sink for begginers to make them play... but you do need to offer stuff that require them to stay if you want them to, well, you know, stay.

[AbzoluteMadLad]

No! No! No! 

MR8 is very new to the game! It's like 1 to 2 weeks of game play! 

The idea of not letting new players have access to this was very sound! Why did you throw that away?!

MR15 was a pretty good entry point imho. You don't need vaulted or event stuffs to get here. And, It does promote players who actually want to invest in the game play more towards it.

MR literally means, you have had n number of weapons and frames! Which translates to 'have tried different things available for play'. Which is a good entry to this system.

[IGN_Maverick]

26 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

I belive that if DE wants to bring new players they should do stuff FOCUSED on new players, the same way that if they want to keep old players, they should do stuff FOCUSED on old players.

trying to do things for both is the reason why the railjack failed so hard when it came out. tiered challenges, so begginers have stuff for them, and veterans do as well. you dont need to offer everything and the kitchen sink for begginers to make them play... but you do need to offer stuff that require them to stay if you want them to, well, you know, stay.

I just can't believe that they can't investigate a thing that everyone knows about: new players feel already overwhelmed about how much stuff there is in the game, and they have no direction. Learning curve is so steep people leave the game after a few months.
 

I had some money ready for the new update, after reading this I bought Fall Guys. LMAO

Let's see how much nerf has been done.