The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Keyhound]

5 minutes ago, FluterTree said:

didnt you say about players bussing lower players? i could drag someone to sedna to level up S#&$ without them even having to use any abilties what so ever so they still dont know what the warframe is about. hell make it so you can only consume rank 30 warframes then its required for them to play the warframe

yeah, you could... does that mean that's how every player gets to mr15? no. this doesnt happen like this, you could speed your farm by being carried, sure, but you are mistaken if you think everyone level every frame, like this, they still need to do the mr tests, and they still need to wait each day to try again if they fail. most players will play the game normally. mr 15 isnt this massive mark of mastery. but it at least require enough time spent playing the game.

and there will be cases of players reaching mr15 before understanding the system... but my point, and most people talking about this is, the number will be MUCH BIGGER if the mr is lowered to 8.

mr15 is no garantee, but lowering it to 8 and adding some crappy 3 rank on syndicate wont make it better.

[Aralicia]

To the various people that comment on the fact that MR means nothing and is a useless metric. You are totally right, but you miss the point that it's the metric chosen by DE to try to discriminate between newcomer and experienced player. Is it flawed ? immensely. Could there be a better way ? Certainly. But that doesn't matter; DE has chosen and keep chosing to stick to MR as a way to lock out "not for newcomer" stuff.

Because DE don't want to change that, we have no other possibility that try to use this incredibly useless metric when talking about limiting a disruptive mechanic to new players so that they don't get even more overwhelmed.

A higher MR is not a indicator of better skill. It is however and indicator of longer investment, and as a result an increased potential for better skills; as well as a higher amount of resources.

MR8 is so low that you barely need to interact with the game. This means that MR8 will have a high ratio of people that don't have enough understanding or enough resources to interact with the Helminth system. In both case, the results would be bad. Someone without enough understanding could just make their frame less effective; and a newcomer without enough resources risks throwing everything they have into this system, when they have a lot more important stuff to do with those resources.

Ideally, I'd love to see this system being restricted behind a smarter system that the MR. But as long as DE stick to MR, we have no choice than arguying about it.

[(PSN)klipschfan71]

I am sure many have suggested  this but please reconsider this.  I think before considering any nerfs some less desirable abilities should be changed out for more desirable options.  Raise the floor but keep the ceiling where it is now to help promote real choice while keeping the system good.  The more great choices we have the healthier the system.  Nerfs to the top tier choices wont slove the problem it won't make the less desirable choices  better or picked more it will just sour people.  We need as many compelling ability swap choices as possible for a diverse and healthy system.

[Keyhound]

2 minutes ago, Aralicia said:

To the various people that comment on the fact that MR means nothing and is a useless metric. You are totally right, but you miss the point that it's the metric chosen by DE to try to discriminate between newcomer and experienced player. Is it flawed ? immensely. Could there be a better way ? Certainly. But that doesn't matter; DE has chosen and keep chosing to stick to MR as a way to lock out "not for newcomer" stuff.

Because DE don't want to change that, we have no other possibility that try to use this incredibly useless metric when talking about limiting a disruptive mechanic to new players so that they don't get even more overwhelmed.

A higher MR is not a indicator of better skill. It is however and indicator of longer investment, and as a result an increased potential for better skills; as well as a higher amount of resources.

MR8 is so low that you barely need to interact with the game. This means that MR8 will have a high ratio of people that don't have enough understanding or enough resources to interact with the Helminth system. In both case, the results would be bad. Someone without enough understanding could just make their frame less effective; and a newcomer without enough resources risks throwing everything they have into this system, when they have a lot more important stuff to do with those resources.

Ideally, I'd love to see this system being restricted behind a smarter system that the MR. But as long as DE stick to MR, we have no choice than arguying about it.

YES. i still dont understand how hard this is to grasp for some people. nobody is saying MR is a mark of mastery, just that, its a mark of time played since even if you do carried all the way through(which is arguible how much this happens), most players will have chance of having a better grasp on how abilities work, and the mechanics of the game, than mr8.

[vFlitz]

9 minutes ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

I think roar will be dominate at all that is why variety will be detroyed. This fact forced DE to nerf imbalanced abilities in pool

 

People are freaking out about Roar way too much. On the one end, we already deal way more damage than Warframe's typical content necessitates without any buffs. There's no practical value in Roar, at best it just feels satisfying cause big numbers.

And on the other end, people are already doing level cap runs without it. Will having access to it make them easier to do? Sure. But don't act like there's any damage control to be done at this point, it's simply too late.

Most of the time, an ability that gives you some utility will be much more helpful and powerful than a silly damage buff.

[judi100]

Not gonna lie it's pretty darn big nerf

[Sahansral]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb (PS4)BeeJayTea:

TL;DR: Buff Ice Wave instead of nerfing Roar!

How could a buff to Ice Wave look like so that anyone would consider taking it over roar?

[(XBOX)beetalogist]

DE, I love you guys, but you are horrendously bad at reading the room sometimes. Ask yourselves this: Is it better to:

1. Nerf overturned abilities to disappoint a hyped player base

Or

2. Buff undertuned/out of date abilities to make them more compelling choices.

Real puzzle, that one. 

[FluterTree]

1 minute ago, Keyhound said:

yeah, you could... does that mean that's how every player gets to mr15? no. this doesnt happen like this, you could speed your farm by being carried, sure, but you are mistaken if you think everyone level every frame, like this, they still need to do the mr tests, and they still need to wait each day to try again if they fail. most players will play the game normally. mr 15 isnt this massive mark of mastery. but it at least require enough time spent playing the game.

and there will be cases of players reaching mr15 before understanding the system... but my point, and most people talking about this is, the number will be MUCH BIGGER if the mr is lowered to 8.

mr15 is no garantee, but lowering it to 8 and adding some crappy 3 rank on syndicate wont make it better.

im going to change my view into one of, they need to rework MR into something else that isnt just locked to weapons and warframes because if its that easy to get to MR8 while still being clueless then theres an issue with the game itself being too easy for new players. hell someone whos rank 15 i know only found out about doing the syndicates to the left of the misson console because the game doesnt exsplain it. I feel like people should stop saying revert the change and say #fixMR

[bibmobello]

8 minutes ago, Aralicia said:

To the various people that comment on the fact that MR means nothing and is a useless metric. You are totally right, but you miss the point that it's the metric chosen by DE to try to discriminate between newcomer and experienced player. Is it flawed ? immensely. Could there be a better way ? Certainly. But that doesn't matter; DE has chosen and keep chosing to stick to MR as a way to lock out "not for newcomer" stuff.

Because DE don't want to change that, we have no other possibility that try to use this incredibly useless metric when talking about limiting a disruptive mechanic to new players so that they don't get even more overwhelmed.

A higher MR is not a indicator of better skill. It is however and indicator of longer investment, and as a result an increased potential for better skills; as well as a higher amount of resources.

MR8 is so low that you barely need to interact with the game. This means that MR8 will have a high ratio of people that don't have enough understanding or enough resources to interact with the Helminth system. In both case, the results would be bad. Someone without enough understanding could just make their frame less effective; and a newcomer without enough resources risks throwing everything they have into this system, when they have a lot more important stuff to do with those resources.

Ideally, I'd love to see this system being restricted behind a smarter system that the MR. But as long as DE stick to MR, we have no choice than arguying about it.

An higher MR is an index of average experience and gear owned. you can see a bunch of bad MR29 players but a lot of MR 12 players.

 

2 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

People are freaking out about Roar way too much. On the one end, we already deal way more damage than Warframe's typical content necessitates without any buffs. There's no practical value in Roar, at best it just feels satisfying cause big numbers.

And on the other end, people are already doing level cap runs without it. Will having access to it make them easier to do? Sure. But don't act like there's any damage control to be done at this point, it's simply too late.

Most of the time, an ability that gives you some utility will be much more helpful and powerful than a silly damage buff.

Even with 20% more damage is surely better than some abilities like Inaros 2.

[Lead_Codpiece]

Well after Xoris nerf cos it was “giving unbalanced damage” lul, this was expected

[RivaAurelius]

1 minute ago, Sahansral said:

How could a buff to Ice Wave look like so that anyone would consider taking it over roar?

I was already thinking of taking Ice wave over any of the other abilities for some frames. 

[Sahansral]

Gerade eben schrieb (XB1)beetalogist:

DE, I love you guys, but you are horrendously bad at reading the room sometimes. Ask yourselves this: Is it better to:

1. Nerf overturned abilities to disappoint a hyped player base

Or

2. Buff undertuned/out of date abilities to make them more compelling choices.

Real puzzle, that one. 

Well, not easy to rework 35 abilitites to make them competitive with the best 6 with the deadline coming nearer and nearer and having all available ressources bount to new content...

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, vFlitz said:

People are freaking out about Roar way too much. On the one end, we already deal way more damage than Warframe's typical content necessitates without any buffs. There's no practical value in Roar, at best it just feels satisfying cause big numbers.

And on the other end, people are already doing level cap runs without it. Will having access to it make them easier to do? Sure. But don't act like there's any damage control to be done at this point, it's simply too late.

Most of the time, an ability that gives you some utility will be much more helpful and powerful than a silly damage buff.

the big problem is not that "they nerfed roar", its that they are missing the point on why people will pick roar instead of pull(for example).

roar is a simple, more damage ability. it will be the most used by that simple fact that you can stick it on pretty much any frame and it will be better for it. now compare it with decoy, an ability that even if you do use the augments, its still a bad ability on anything but loki(and that only because you can use teleport to swap places on spy missions).

as is, many abilities dont offer enough of a reason to be picked, and even if they picked charge, people still wouldnt select it to be used...

 

[RivaAurelius]

Just now, Sahansral said:

Well, not easy to rework 35 abilitites to make them competitive with the best 6 with the deadline coming nearer and nearer and having all available ressources bount to new content...

What do you think hotfixes are for? Release the system as is, study the numbers on which abilities get used most, and then buff the abilities that get used the least so that there is more competition and choice for players. Don't just nerf stuff before it is even released. 

[bibmobello]

4 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Well, not easy to rework 35 abilitites to make them competitive with the best 6 with the deadline coming nearer and nearer and having all available ressources bount to new content...

It was easy if they reworked the actual abilities before this update.

Some of them are just trash.

Chroma 1

inaros 2

Valkyr 1

ivara noise arrow

and so on...

While many other are just broken and OP.

 

[Nirau]

While i'm mostly disagree with the latest changes, i think it's good for new players when you don't have lots of slots for warframes so you farming them, level and sell. Now you can at least have something useful from it, not just a few credits (10k iirc). But still, at MR8 it's too overwhelming. For me the point of MR system is to look forward to unlock cool stuff, get new upgrades etc. so you feel progress and meaning for every MR you going through, when you go higher you unlock more complex and strong mechanics (liches for example should be MR locked). Sorry for my english it's not my native language.

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, Sahansral said:

Well, not easy to rework 35 abilitites to make them competitive with the best 6 with the deadline coming nearer and nearer and having all available ressources bount to new content...

i agree, but they should at least try. those abilities have been a problem for years, this is nothing new. making the good abilities less good, wont fix the problem. you could nerf roar to a cap of 50% and people would still pick it above desiccation or terrify.

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, Nirau said:

While i'm mostly disagree with the latest changes, i think it's good for new players when you don't have lots of slots for warframes so you farming them, level and sell. Now you can at least have something useful from it, not just a few credits (10k iirc). But still, at MR8 it's too overwhelming. For me the point of MR system is to look forward to unlock cool stuff, get new upgrades etc. so you feel progress and meaning for every MR you going through, when you go higher you unlock more complex and strong mechanics (liches for example should be MR locked). Sorry for my english it's not my native language.

this isnt a good thing for new players, the problem of the slot is that it requires Plat to buy, you dont fix a mistake with another mistake. warframes should be kept, not sold. being forced to sell because the game wants your money is NOT a good thing. and its actually one of the things that pisses people off enough to leave the game.

[Petrexis]

At the beginning i was really hyped for this update, but after all these changes and most likely more upcoming, my expectations are going down. Personaly i think the MR prerequisite was quite low even on 15, but i kind of accepted it. Now it has been downed to 8, it's like a joke. Literaly any player can get to MR8 potentialy in 8 days, because of the 24h MR rank up cooldowns. I thought that this update will be something for players on low MR to work for, but now it's just another thing for new players to find in game and get bored because of high drain onto resources. Nerf or change skills in this system, it's not like they are that good to begin with, but please, keep something in-game to make it worth exping things.

[(NSW)DSiRy]

I haven’t been really excited about this update like everybody else here so I am not upset about the news either, but.....I think DE seriously needs to learn that showing something you can’t promise is not a good idea.

I know Warframe is and has been open beta. However,  in reality people are investing their real time and money like all the other games and you can’t fawn on that status forever.

One more thing I’m worried about is the credibility of the Tennocon,

Last year we were super hyped about the Railjack, but had to face the reality that majority of the presentation was not in the actual game. (It still isn’t by the way.)

The magnitude is different this time, but if you are not that sure about your product’s delivery, I don’t think it’s a good idea to claim you can deliver in the first place.

[Tamatu]

On 2020-08-12 at 7:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite).

Very experienced at mr 8, yes makes sense. 🤪

I'd have loved to see the mr 15 cap increased even further as this entire system is a huge investment and should be treated as a late game feature. Why should someone that has ~1 week of playtime reach such a powerful system? It'll trivialise everything even more, and now even brand new players can reach something so busted.

The nerfs to those abilities make perfect sense, I'm glad you at least realised it.

[Swagernator22663]

How many SPARE frames MR8 players even have ? Like two ? 

[-Edrick-]

Wow... i haven't posted in a long while on the forums. This recent... "fix" to the helminth system definitely pushed me to write this... And I'm not talking about the power 'nerfs/balances.' 

But Rather This....
We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15)
 ...literally grinds my gear!!!

For once i actually felt and believed DE was finally separating and categorizing new player content vs end game content -- starting with Steel-Path  + Helminth System. But nope...another let down.  This may not seem like a big deal for alot of (newer) folks.. but for a 6 year, passionate, veteran of this game....it is.

I have no problem with new players, I welcome and even help them. What I have a problem with is identifying WTF is end game in warframe!?! 

My guess, for this disappointment, is probably due to the fact not many high MR's are playing the game enough to merit profit margins or contribute to high concurrent player base (on release).  Resolve?!  Open it up to newer players (adjust bit later)! Yay!   😡   Business first ima right?!  anyways I'm done ranting.  idk why i hyped myself for this. i normally don't as it spares me from what would be disappointing nerfs or balances or changes to hyped contents.  

Word of advise for ALL new players,
"If it's too good to be true... you are right...It probably is."

Word of advise for ALL experienced players,
"Never get TOO HYPED..."  (...it can be a really painful, disappointing emotional roller coaster...)

[Pzykdruhgs]

From an experienced player:

This is barely going to change endgame if it were implemented in it's original proposal. If the players want to, they can do broken stuff with or without this new system. All nerfing them does is give us slightly less dps... which is futile at this point. 👍