The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Damocles]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)H4YKEN1987 said:

You people, are being ungrateful... there are a lot of frames, we don't even even 2 abilities, this system will make better that part, the only thing they fail was on presenting it before they tested, that's a reeeally bad. I think they need to apologize for that. but apart from that. the new Helminith system will be Awesome, and no only the frames have abilities, the helmilith have is owns! and we do not know yet what they are.

so, stop being so critics and complaining so much, about a thing you don't even try it yet.

Don't bold all letters. But yeah, I can see too that everything given is a bonus, so can't complain. But if you invested time farming those doners, then DE is still guilty of spreading misinformation like a boss hinting promotion to trick employees into working harder but never giving out promotions. However that GIF makes you seem more jerk than classy... I recommend not bolding and using better GIFs. 

[LixSin]

20 minutes ago, Egathentale said:

If DE was running a restaurant, I imagine they would announce a new menu, with ten dishes out of which five were terrible, three were barely edible, and two were actually really good, and then the next day they would put out a new menu and tell you that they took all the salt and spices out of the best dishes, because for some reason everyone picked them, and they want to promote varied eating habits.

The only difference is that if an actual restaurant did that, they would go bankrupt in a week, yet DE have been pulling this kind of crap for years, and they are somehow still making money. I can't help but wonder if they are the stupid ones, or the joke's on us.

Love that analogy, perfect.

[9Drade]

LOL MR8. Plebs. I was excited about this whole thing BEFORE roar was given and then taken away. Now it's just stupid. Good job DE lmao.

I would be far happier if you just DIDNT give us roar and didn't fcking nerf anything. We no longer want the abilities, so this whole system is now pointless. Amazing. Not even released yet and I already lost interest.

[danberhe]

hace 16 minutos, SpentCasings dijo:

Because the catchmoon is not useful or needed in all situations. you edit your tools to suit your needs. I dont need roar on all my frames, nor was it going on all of them. Quite a few? you bet, but not all. 

melee is not useful or needed in most situations, but is still the meta because it melts everything it touches compared to guns. 
i can do a solo tridolon with loki, but why would i do that if i have volt or chroma?
just because you can hinder yourself doesn't make it a better option. 

i like to use primaries rather than melee, but im not going to act like they are on the same playing field.

i prefer thematic rather than min max (thats why i would put dispensary on vauban and larva on saryn prime) but im not going to act as if roar and eclipse aren't the better options, just because i wouldn't personally put them. 

[AlphaPHENIX]

My heart is telling me - yesn't
But my mind is telling me - this will just turn into mandatory mods all over again.

And I quite disslike how more or less every mod slot on every thing is basically not even there, because there will always be a Serration to put in it.

[Fegefeuer]

the next usless  system is comming ... 

[Kald-Wing]

So far the majority community consensus appears to be:

• Weaker abilities such as Decoy have no use besides being a gimmick at the moment. These abilities need to be buffed in a similar manner to Trinity's and Zephyr's
• The majority of the community, but not all, agree that some if not all of these nerfs are unfavorable and undesired, a revert to these changes must be made.
• MR 8 is a bit too low of an MR requirement. MR 15 was good enough for this type of system.

Are we in agreement in this case?

 

 

[Kokokojo]

12 hours ago, quietcanary said:

Hey it would still be a bad idea to do it, but at least they would have given us the actual chance to test it and be ignored rather than to be ignored before we even have a chance to pretend to be involved. If you are suprised that gaz would be honest with his opinion if the end result doesn't change then I don't know what to tell you.

If they released the abilities as it was, and then nerfed (assuming they would nerft it anyways) the amount of negative feedback would be WAY higher than right now.
I'm not saying I agree with the nerfs, but I disagree with the mindset "release then nerf". It's like giving a child a candy, then taking it away.

[Lord_Qrainex]

18 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

I've been playing Warframe from TotalBiscuit's first video on Warframes, and played casual since than, I'm still "only" MR24, you know what, I wish this system was MR25+ so I would have a reason to play the game instead of being spoon fed, people want to strive for something, a reason to continue playing, to achieve something, even new players, have you even watched the 100 days of Warframe video? You were so proud and happy about it, but lost ALL of it's meaning, to look up at high rank players and strive to achieve that, instead 100 days of Warframe would be 10 days now a days, "no a system for beginners", hey another white lie to add to the long list of lies from all the recent TennoCons, the game is as wide as an ocean but as deep as a puddle, SO many different systems and you can access all oftl them basically by day 10, "new player experience"? What new player experience, they are overwhelmed because you keep giving them literally everything.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

20 minutes ago, Mordewolt said:

A tool has to do its job, if the larva range becomes too low nobody will use ice wave instead of the larva, because they do different things

Instead everyone will use Khora's Ensnare, because it does do pretty much the same thing as Larva.

Most early and mid game content can already be trivialized well before MR15... Helminth doesn't change that, it just gives us more toys.

[SpentCasings]

Just now, danberhe said:

melee is not useful or needed in most situations, but is still the meta because it melts everything it touches compared to guns. 
i can do a solo tridolon with loki, but why would i do that if i have volt or chroma?
just because you can hinder yourself doesn't make it a better option. 

i like to use primaries rather than melee, but im not going to say that they are on the same playing field.

i prefer thematic rather than min max (thats why i would put dispensary on vauban and larva on saryn prime) but im not going to act as if roar and eclipse aren't the better options, just because i wouldn't personally put them. 

You obviously havent seen any of my guns, because i shoot more than i swing.....

 

If i'm running an arca plasmor, or any other short range shotgun im not also running a Catchmoon. I need something long ranged and accurate. Lex primes, Twin Grakatas, etc...You know...I edit my secondary to make up for a problem my primary has....Thats why your analogy is flawed. SOmeone else mentioned earlier using Roar on saryn. I'm not touching my Saryn. I use her entire kit, and i dont use a lot of power strn. Belive it or not not everyone runs a max range max power Saryn, so roar on her would be a complete hinderance to the way I play. 

[iLightning13]

[Fractyr]

On 2020-08-12 at 6:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).That’s all for now!

You screwed up big time DE. I know you wont listen and just double down on all the bad decisions you have made over the past few years but if you miraculously do, here is my criticism.

You stated the Helminth system was intended for "endgame" usage for experienced players hence the Mastery Rank 15 gate. That way it it more rewarding and satisfying to unlock the helminth since it allows builds to be optimized even further for even more efficiency. Currently, the ONLY reason to get to Mastery Rank 16 is rivens; not to mention rivens are already unlockable at Mastery Rank 8. 

You have allowed the fault of bending the knee to new players over and over again. I understand new players make you the most money but if there is no endgame, they do not stay. Time and time again you promise some sort of endgame, yet you make it easier. For example, you added an Elite Sanctuary Onslaught easy mode, you reduced the difficulty of Nightwave missions by a significant amount, you are so concerned about balance that you would rather have the game be unfun.

I understand this is a game catering to casual players, but other players also exist.

~ Ryptoryx

[KurtisPrime]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)waterdog77 said:

Nerfing roar will make people thinking hard about choosing shock, nourish or smite instead. Real choice instead no brainer cookie cutter.

Roar is nowhere near the power of shock or smite but they need a mod slot for augment . Making roar the better option on general frame that have at least 250 strength and decent duration .It not as simple as you thing. And then DE will neft  shock, nourish or smite because they do ToO MuCH DaMagE.

[CMDR_Overwerk]

My guess would be to temporarely revert these changes, let launch day be what it is, adn then ajust based on that. If things are legit too strong, or make frames functionally useless, then rework these abilities, and buff/micro-change the abilities that are least usefull.

For example, valkyr's (best waifu come at me suckers) 1, 3 and to an extent 4 have fallen by the wayside leaving her with only one usefull ability, she now gives away meaning that she kinda lost a lot of her flavor. On the flipside i am not really happy with its ability being nerfed, because it still makes more sense to use warcry+augment on frames like excal because they just have one useless ability they can shove aside to replace it with a usefull one. These frames are likely to be targetted for tranplant first because one of their ability is such a braindead choice to throw away.

Instead, these throw away abilities should be looked at first and improved in order to make these throwaways more impactfull. For example, change valkyr's 1 and 3 with something more usable in order to make her flavor not linked to a single ability, and while usable, her 4 could deserve some love, since its an exalted weapon that's arguably weaker than regular melee weapons.

[General-Pacman]

So, let me get this straight.

The Helminth mastery requirement is now 8.

Last year, you guys made a change in the ayatan system, adding a feature to auto-install stars on sculptures, that is locked behind Mastery 10.

So now you are telling me that mastery 8 players are experienced enough to fiddle with the helminth system, but not enough to auto install stars in sculptures.

[Reelix]

Through the pages of this thread I have seen people complain that DE are going back on their word by reducing the MR requirement from 15 to 8 when they themselves said that it was designed for experienced players.  
  
Here's a newsflash in case anyone has missed the past.... few hundred streams - To them, 8 IS an experienced player.  
  
To DE, MR8 IS your high-end player. Their stats say the majority stop at 12, so given that limitation of "MR12 is a god-tier Warframe player", they have safely deduced that MR8 is "experienced", so in their eyes - Yes - They designed the system for experienced (MR8) Warframe players.

[Fratellino_Palevino]

[Damocles]

2 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

Roar is nowhere near the power of shock or smite but they need a mod slot for augment . Making roar the better option on general frame that have at least 250 strength and decent duration .It not as simple as you thing. And then DE will neft  shock, nourish or smite because they do ToO MuCH DaMagE.

Me thinking of frames with 250% strength and is not those two guys

[bibmobello]

5 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

Roar is nowhere near the power of shock or smite but they need a mod slot for augment . Making roar the better option on general frame that have at least 250 strength and decent duration .It not as simple as you thing. And then DE will neft  shock, nourish or smite because they do ToO MuCH DaMagE.

Roar amplifies the damage before and after you use a weapon(included slash and toxin ticks), that means a lot of damage especially if you use Faction mods.

[Keyhound]

5 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

So far the majority community consensus appears to be:

• Weaker abilities such as Decoy have no use besides being a gimmick at the moment. These abilities need to be buffed in a similar manner to Trinity's and Zephyr's
• The majority of the community, but not all, agree that some if not all of these nerfs are unfavorable and undesired, a revert to these changes must be made.
• MR 8 is a bit too low of an MR requirement. MR 15 was good enough for this type of system.

Are we in agreement in this case?

 

 

zephyr buff is still bad and pointless, so i would say it still needs a massive buff, or at the very least a useable tweak. right now the vaccum effect is atrociously useless...

[SpentCasings]

1 minute ago, -Damocles- said:

Me thinking of frames with 250% strength and is not those two guys

I think mine can BARELY get that with growing power and the specifically-made-for-buffing Kitgun that gives 30% more str and effeciency to the next cast. All i know my Rhino with a perfect buff tops out at 140%

[Chronozilla]

Some thoughts,

I think there is value in reeling the front runners of the system in a bit, in their original forms they do make a majority of the available abilities obsolete. I can imagine DE isn't happy releasing a system knowing 80% of it is dead on arrival, relative to what they would be compared to the now nerfed top 6.
I would like to see the stragglers being pulled up, Brozime made a great video evaluating the viability of every ability and while buffing the bottom 40 to be on par with the top 6 is definitely power creep and not viable, buffing the bottom 8 (fire blast, ice wave, spectrorage, banish, decoy, mind control, reave, airburst) to make up for what is perceived as an unjust nerf should at least appease some folks.

I also wanna say this, because its really important; MASTERY REQUIREMENTS SET EXPECTATIONS
A requirement of 15 tells the playerbase that an item or system is made for players that have worked their way through the majority of the game and have access to the entire game's arsenal. Players in this group likely have a deepened knowledge of the game that comes primarily from extended experience with it to make informed decisions on which frames to subsume, which abilities are good to put on which frames and so forth.
A requirement of 8 tells the playerbase that an item or system is made for players that have worked their way through a minor part of the game. this likely means they are inexperienced when it comes to understanding the intricacies the game has to offer and don't own a substantial amount of frames to subsume, or even know which frames are good to subsume in the first place. unless they're a wiki-warrior or media-groupie, neither of which are ideal.

I think the definition of what's actually an end game system is up in the air for Warframe. This may be due to having a lack of any current systems to compare the Helminth to, it may be due to DE deliberately pandering to newer players, It may be due to failed experimentation by DE to make engaging endgame systems, liches, steel path and eidolons all come to mind as examples. I personally think it is a combination of the three along with other factors and each issue compounds the next.

[(NSW)WesFX]

So, I'm left feeling two ways about the pre-release nerfs.

1. I wasn't planning on using any of the now nerfed, subsumed abilities on my favorite frames. DPS isn't that interesting.

2. I was planning on trying these powers with the worst/least capable frames to see if they can be salvaged. DPS is useful.

Hmm. I guess those frames  stay in the bin until they (maybe) get their reworks.

[S3p3rator]

On 2020-08-12 at 8:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.

Rank 8 VERY EXPERIENCED indeed. rofl💩