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On 2020-08-12 at 6:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.


PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).That’s all for now!

You screwed up big time DE. I know you wont listen and just double down on all the bad decisions you have made over the past few years but if you miraculously do, here is my criticism.

You stated the Helminth system was intended for "endgame" usage for experienced players hence the Mastery Rank 15 gate. That way it it more rewarding and satisfying to unlock the helminth since it allows builds to be optimized even further for even more efficiency. Currently, the ONLY reason to get to Mastery Rank 16 is rivens; not to mention rivens are already unlockable at Mastery Rank 8. 

You have allowed the fault of bending the knee to new players over and over again. I understand new players make you the most money but if there is no endgame, they do not stay. Time and time again you promise some sort of endgame, yet you make it easier. For example, you added an Elite Sanctuary Onslaught easy mode, you reduced the difficulty of Nightwave missions by a significant amount, you are so concerned about balance that you would rather have the game be unfun.

I understand this is a game catering to casual players, but other players also exist.

~ Ryptoryx

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)waterdog77 said:

Nerfing roar will make people thinking hard about choosing shock, nourish or smite instead. Real choice instead no brainer cookie cutter.

Roar is nowhere near the power of shock or smite but they need a mod slot for augment . Making roar the better option on general frame that have at least 250 strength and decent duration .It not as simple as you thing. And then DE will neft  shock, nourish or smite because they do ToO MuCH DaMagE.

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My guess would be to temporarely revert these changes, let launch day be what it is, adn then ajust based on that. If things are legit too strong, or make frames functionally useless, then rework these abilities, and buff/micro-change the abilities that are least usefull.

For example, valkyr's (best waifu come at me suckers) 1, 3 and to an extent 4 have fallen by the wayside leaving her with only one usefull ability, she now gives away meaning that she kinda lost a lot of her flavor. On the flipside i am not really happy with its ability being nerfed, because it still makes more sense to use warcry+augment on frames like excal because they just have one useless ability they can shove aside to replace it with a usefull one. These frames are likely to be targetted for tranplant first because one of their ability is such a braindead choice to throw away.

Instead, these throw away abilities should be looked at first and improved in order to make these throwaways more impactfull. For example, change valkyr's 1 and 3 with something more usable in order to make her flavor not linked to a single ability, and while usable, her 4 could deserve some love, since its an exalted weapon that's arguably weaker than regular melee weapons.

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So, let me get this straight.

The Helminth mastery requirement is now 8.

Last year, you guys made a change in the ayatan system, adding a feature to auto-install stars on sculptures, that is locked behind Mastery 10.

So now you are telling me that mastery 8 players are experienced enough to fiddle with the helminth system, but not enough to auto install stars in sculptures.

Come On What GIF by MOODMAN

Edited by General-Pacman
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Through the pages of this thread I have seen people complain that DE are going back on their word by reducing the MR requirement from 15 to 8 when they themselves said that it was designed for experienced players.  
  
Here's a newsflash in case anyone has missed the past.... few hundred streams - To them, 8 IS an experienced player.  
  
To DE, MR8 IS your high-end player. Their stats say the majority stop at 12, so given that limitation of "MR12 is a god-tier Warframe player", they have safely deduced that MR8 is "experienced", so in their eyes - Yes - They designed the system for experienced (MR8) Warframe players.

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2 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

Roar is nowhere near the power of shock or smite but they need a mod slot for augment . Making roar the better option on general frame that have at least 250 strength and decent duration .It not as simple as you thing. And then DE will neft  shock, nourish or smite because they do ToO MuCH DaMagE.

Me thinking of frames with 250% strength and is not those two guys

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5 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

Roar is nowhere near the power of shock or smite but they need a mod slot for augment . Making roar the better option on general frame that have at least 250 strength and decent duration .It not as simple as you thing. And then DE will neft  shock, nourish or smite because they do ToO MuCH DaMagE.

Roar amplifies the damage before and after you use a weapon(included slash and toxin ticks), that means a lot of damage especially if you use Faction mods.

Edited by bibmobello
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5 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

So far the majority community consensus appears to be:

  • Weaker abilities such as Decoy have no use besides being a gimmick at the moment. These abilities need to be buffed in a similar manner to Trinity's and Zephyr's
  • The majority of the community, but not all, agree that some if not all of these nerfs are unfavorable and undesired, a revert to these changes must be made.
  • MR 8 is a bit too low of an MR requirement. MR 15 was good enough for this type of system.

Are we in agreement in this case?

 


 

zephyr buff is still bad and pointless, so i would say it still needs a massive buff, or at the very least a useable tweak. right now the vaccum effect is atrociously useless...

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1 minute ago, -Damocles- said:

Me thinking of frames with 250% strength and is not those two guys

I think mine can BARELY get that with growing power and the specifically-made-for-buffing Kitgun that gives 30% more str and effeciency to the next cast. All i know my Rhino with a perfect buff tops out at 140%

Edited by SpentCasings
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Some thoughts,

I think there is value in reeling the front runners of the system in a bit, in their original forms they do make a majority of the available abilities obsolete. I can imagine DE isn't happy releasing a system knowing 80% of it is dead on arrival, relative to what they would be compared to the now nerfed top 6.
I would like to see the stragglers being pulled up, Brozime made a great video evaluating the viability of every ability and while buffing the bottom 40 to be on par with the top 6 is definitely power creep and not viable, buffing the bottom 8 (fire blast, ice wave, spectrorage, banish, decoy, mind control, reave, airburst) to make up for what is perceived as an unjust nerf should at least appease some folks.

I also wanna say this, because its really important; MASTERY REQUIREMENTS SET EXPECTATIONS
A requirement of 15 tells the playerbase that an item or system is made for players that have worked their way through the majority of the game and have access to the entire game's arsenal. Players in this group likely have a deepened knowledge of the game that comes primarily from extended experience with it to make informed decisions on which frames to subsume, which abilities are good to put on which frames and so forth.
A requirement of 8 tells the playerbase that an item or system is made for players that have worked their way through a minor part of the game. this likely means they are inexperienced when it comes to understanding the intricacies the game has to offer and don't own a substantial amount of frames to subsume, or even know which frames are good to subsume in the first place. unless they're a wiki-warrior or media-groupie, neither of which are ideal.

I think the definition of what's actually an end game system is up in the air for Warframe. This may be due to having a lack of any current systems to compare the Helminth to, it may be due to DE deliberately pandering to newer players, It may be due to failed experimentation by DE to make engaging endgame systems, liches, steel path and eidolons all come to mind as examples. I personally think it is a combination of the three along with other factors and each issue compounds the next.

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So, I'm left feeling two ways about the pre-release nerfs.

1. I wasn't planning on using any of the now nerfed, subsumed abilities on my favorite frames. DPS isn't that interesting.

2. I was planning on trying these powers with the worst/least capable frames to see if they can be salvaged. DPS is useful.

Hmm. I guess those frames  stay in the bin until they (maybe) get their reworks.

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On 2020-08-12 at 8:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.

Rank 8 VERY EXPERIENCED indeed. rofl💩

Edited by S3p3rator
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb SpentCasings:

Because i wasn't going to explicity use roar on all the things. I was going to use abilities to take up usless skill slots and abilities that fixed problems certain warframes had...like Valkyr's lack of base HP...Elemental ward would be perfect on her, and not mess up my build. Her warcry on my chroma would stack with his vex armor and i just re-forma'd him to be able to use Adapation for ultimate tankyness, or drop adaptaion for eternal war on a 230% growning power vex-armor chroma...that would have been INCREDIBLY fun as a melle frame...but there they go...ruining things before they even get started...

Don't waste your time. People who complained about Roar being the only valid choice don't understand that there are people who don't need more damage and that there are just frames and builds that don't support this ability like low/negative strength and/or duration builds and that frames might benefit more from rounding up their kit than from bruteforcing Roar or Eclipse or whatever into them just because it seems like a good choice for everything in a vacuum without considering any variables.

I also looked into Elemental Ward (Electric) for Hildryn. Pre-testing seems promising. Still not sure if I remove her 1 or 4.

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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Just now, SpentCasings said:

I think mine can BARELY get that with growing power and the specifically-made-for-buffing Kitgun that gives 30% more str and effeciency to the next cast. 

44%Umbral + 55% fortitude + 99% blind rage

Edited by KurtisPrime
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2 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Roar amplify the damage before and after you use a weapon, that means a lot of damage especially if you use Faction mods.

As a rhino main I would like to clarify this is incorrect. The buff is bonus damage to all sources. What he meant is probably how slash is a separate damage source that scales from the initial proccing damage, allowing for double dip. It DOES NOT scale well with Faction mods as you're basically getting 150% universal damage to all factions with roar, and adding another 55% is not as valueble as adding more base damage with a mod slot. 

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"Permanent?
Infused Abilities are removable with the click of a button - they will stay within a given Warframe as long as you decide you want it!

Subsuming a Warframe is permanent  - only Subsume Warframes you are sure you do not want to play with. You can always re-earn or re-buy a subsumed Warframe."

 

Are you telling me do I have to infuse a frame for every other frame i want to use that ability just to discover it's useless? Are you just insane?!?!?!?!

Edited by bibmobello
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5 minutes ago, Reelix said:

Through the pages of this thread I have seen people complain that DE are going back on their word by reducing the MR requirement from 15 to 8 when they themselves said that it was designed for experienced players.  
  
Here's a newsflash in case anyone has missed the past.... few hundred streams - To them, 8 IS an experienced player.  
  
To DE, MR8 IS your high-end player. Their stats say the majority stop at 12, so given that limitation of "MR12 is a god-tier Warframe player", they have safely deduced that MR8 is "experienced", so in their eyes - Yes - They designed the system for experienced (MR8) Warframe players.

and the irony is, this happens because, people play up to rank 12, see that they wont get anything beyond that, and think they have seen all the game has to offer... while others will abandon because they will look the insane amount of stuff, and think the game is too complex and give up because its too bloated.

in other words, they are making a problem worse for no other reason but them not being able to read a chart and understand its info...

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11 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

If they released the abilities as it was, and then nerfed (assuming they would nerft it anyways) the amount of negative feedback would be WAY higher than right now.
I'm not saying I agree with the nerfs, but I disagree with the mindset "release then nerf". It's like giving a child a candy, then taking it away.

Bro they just teased us the candy and THEN took it away. Is it worse if you got to hold it in your hand for a second? I dunno. Getting to use it for a few days might actually convince me it was OP. Now I will never know.

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I'm really disappointed that you guys are nerfing this already, and the mastery decrease...
even if you intended to nerf this after release, atleast let the players get there hands on it first.
Or better yet if you dont want us to have good things etc. you should've not made this dev work shop until further testing was made...
Even if you want all the other abilities to have a chance or whatever, you should buff em.

why make all abilities crappy because some are? instead of making them all good/decent .-. ?

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"It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice"
Well no duh these skills would be picked, do you expect people to use Ice wave or Smite? It's not that these abilities are "too good", it's that every other one sucks. Instead of nerfing these, why not buff/rework the frames who have 1-4 useless abilities in their kits?

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Perspective for some people. The total XP required to attain mastery rank 8 is 160,000. Completing all of the junctions gets you 26,000.  All that leaves is for someone to level up 9 war frames and 22 weapons. This also includes the Archwing(+2/22 weaps) that you're required to get, and a kubrow that you're required to get.

This system is stronger than rivens and has half the prerequisites

Oh yeah and they give you a sentinel and its  weapon, and there are 12 or 13 weapons like the MK-1 set PURCHASABLE WITH CREDITS from the market. Dont tell me that's not all new player items. MR 8 is barely stepping into mid game. I'd stake money on the statement that most under MR10 don't even have a solid understanding of how the damage system currently works in the game.

Just so everyone is aware the XP for MR15 is 810,000. Wfs are 6,000xp,  weapons 3,000.

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