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il y a 6 minutes, Jarriaga a dit :

No possible way? Like, at all? Under no circumstances?

Come on dude. "Buff Y even if it means having to buff it all the way to Pluto and back" is a way.

Examples?

1) Mind Control: Affected target deals true damage that ignores shields and armor, target now also gets a fire rate boost. Target heals you based on the damage it dealt when it dies or effect is over.

2) Decoy: Increase range and make it invulnerable so it can enjoy its full duration. When duration is over, the decoy "explodes" dealing back all accumulated damage x10 at 2x range in order to compensate that it's stationary (Because it can't even compete against Octavia's Resonator otherwise).

3) Ice Wave: Buff damage to 1000 at base and multiply it by the number of enemies it hits on its path. Range increased.

4) Fire Blast (Because no Immolation for full effect): Give it Flash Accelerant, surviving enemies are affected with a max-level Blast proc, giving you some breathing room.

5) Reave (Because no Enthrall/Mesmer Skin for full effect): Base drain increased to 20%. Surviving enemies are affected with max-level Impact and Cold Procs. Range and speed increased, free casting if your HP is under 25%.   

6) Tempest Barrage: Make it Corroding Barrage by default, range and duration increased, ally movement and parkour speed increased while active. Augment renamed to "Deathly Barrage", randomly deals Viral, Gas, Radiation, Toxin.

7) Thermal Sunder (Because no Battery for max effect): Heat sunder also causes electric procs with both heat and electric damage themselves increasing the longer the enemy stays inside. Cold sunder also increases critical damage multiplier by 2x.

Few people would say that the listed abilities would not be compelling options over Roar if buffed to said extents.

I am someone who is normally OK with nerfs, but this is a case in which special exceptions are being made in a system with many terrible abilities that had no way to compete from the start and rather than choosing abilities that would have NOT outclassed the rest by such a wide margin (Such as Ripline/Paralysis over Warcry and Charge over Roar), DE decided to hurt the goodwill they generated from Tennocon by nerfing those abilities rather than buffing the rest.

This is not on the same scale of Riven balancing or weapon balancing as those are tied to their MR ranks for an expected performance ballpark that caps how good a weapon can be. Abilities don't have that luxury because they immediately either have a purpose or they don't as they can be negatively affected in their own kits when trying to make the most out of other abilities.

Not only that, but if the base abilities are buffed, those abilities become harder to replace on their own source frames. Pissing everyone off days before the update by taking the most disliked approach just because it's easier to nerf than to buff without doing anything at all with regards to WHY those abilities are not used to begin with just reeks of self-sabotage.

This post... I couldn't summarize better what I think than it. Thanks you!

Edited by (PS4)thexxo
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All i bave to say is that i am disappointed in DEs decision to lover the MR requirement for the helminth system from 15 to 8. It makes them out to be hypocrites and slaves to the new players instead of the players that have been here for a while. This is my opinion.

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In my humble opinion it seems kind of pointless to nerf the most desirable abilities whilst not doing anything about abilities nobody was super excited for. Everything doesn’t have to be nerfed. What should be looked into is bringing other abilities up to the power you believe those other 6 abilities are.  

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5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

No possible way? Like, at all? Under no circumstances?

Come on dude. "Buff Y even if it means having to buff it all the way to Pluto and back" is a way.

Examples?

1) Mind Control: Affected target deals true damage that ignores shields and armor, target now also gets a fire rate boost. Target heals you based on the damage it dealt when it dies or effect is over.

2) Decoy: Increase range and make it invulnerable so it can enjoy its full duration. When duration is over, the decoy "explodes" dealing back all accumulated damage x10 at 2x range in order to compensate that it's stationary (Because it can't even compete against Octavia's Resonator otherwise).

3) Ice Wave: Buff damage to 1000 at base and multiply it by the number of enemies it hits on its path. Range increased.

4) Fire Blast (Because no Immolation for full effect): Give it Flash Accelerant, surviving enemies are affected with a max-level Blast proc, giving you some breathing room.

5) Reave (Because no Enthrall/Mesmer Skin for full effect): Base drain increased to 20%. Surviving enemies are affected with max-level Impact and Cold Procs. Range and speed increased, free casting if your HP is under 25%.   

6) Tempest Barrage: Make it Corroding Barrage by default, range and duration increased, ally movement and parkour speed increased while active. Augment renamed to "Deathly Barrage", randomly deals Viral, Gas, Radiation, Toxin.

7) Thermal Sunder (Because no Battery for max effect): Heat sunder also causes electric procs with both heat and electric damage themselves increasing the longer the enemy stays inside. Cold sunder also increases critical damage multiplier by 2x.

Few people would say that the listed abilities would not be compelling options over Roar if buffed to said extents.

I am someone who is normally OK with nerfs, but this is a case in which special exceptions are being made in a system with many terrible abilities that had no way to compete from the start and rather than choosing abilities that would have NOT outclassed the rest by such a wide margin (Such as Ripline/Paralysis over Warcry and Charge over Roar), DE decided to hurt the goodwill they generated from Tennocon by nerfing those abilities rather than buffing the rest.

This is not on the same scale of Riven balancing or weapon balancing as those are tied to their MR ranks for an expected performance ballpark that caps how good a weapon can be. Abilities don't have that luxury because they immediately either have a purpose or they don't as they can be negatively affected in their own kits when trying to make the most out of other abilities.

Not only that, but if the base abilities are buffed, those abilities become harder to replace on their own source frames. Pissing everyone off days before the update by taking the most disliked approach just because it's easier to nerf than to buff without doing anything at all with regards to WHY those abilities are not used to begin with just reeks of self-sabotage.

Yeah honestly with some of those changes they'd be pretty dam interesting.....

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19 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

  • Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
  • Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
  • Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Thats all fine and dandy, but how many more systems do you want to throw at players who don't even know how to mod after they bought all the weapons and power leveled to MR8 in 3 days after installing the game?

Some MR8 don't even know where to farm argons and you are putting them through helminth?!
I am already starting to write copy pasta answers to questions like:
"What is that huge mouth in my orbiter?"
"How do I kill frames with it?"
"Will i get slot for all frames?"

Yeah. No DE. put it back to experienced players only, preferrably MR20+
At least that way players will at least know what they are doing.

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hace 1 minuto, Jarriaga dijo:

No possible way? Like, at all? Under no circumstances?

Come on dude. "Buff Y even if it means having to buff it all the way to Pluto and back" is a way.

Examples?

1) Mind Control: Affected target deals true damage that ignores shields and armor, target now also gets a fire rate boost. Target heals you based on the damage it dealt when it dies or effect is over.

2) Decoy: Increase range and make it invulnerable so it can enjoy its full duration. When duration is over, the decoy "explodes" dealing back all accumulated damage x10 at 2x range in order to compensate that it's stationary (Because it can't even compete against Octavia's Resonator otherwise).

3) Ice Wave: Buff damage to 1000 at base and multiply it by the number of enemies it hits on its path. Range increased.

4) Fire Blast (Because no Immolation for full effect): Give it Flash Accelerant, surviving enemies are affected with a max-level Blast proc, giving you some breathing room.

5) Reave (Because no Enthrall/Mesmer Skin for full effect): Base drain increased to 20%. Surviving enemies are affected with max-level Impact and Cold Procs. Range and speed increased, free casting if your HP is under 25%.   

6) Tempest Barrage: Make it Corroding Barrage by default, range and duration increased, ally movement and parkour speed increased while active. Augment renamed to "Deathly Barrage", randomly deals Viral, Gas, Radiation, Toxin.

7) Thermal Sunder (Because no Battery for max effect): Heat sunder also causes electric procs with both heat and electric damage themselves increasing the longer the enemy stays inside. Cold sunder also increases critical damage multiplier by 2x.

Few people would say that the listed abilities would not be compelling options over Roar if buffed to said extents.

I am someone who is normally OK with nerfs, but this is a case in which special exceptions are being made in a system with many terrible abilities that had no way to compete from the start and rather than choosing abilities that would have NOT outclassed the rest by such a wide margin (Such as Ripline/Paralysis over Warcry and Charge over Roar), DE decided to hurt the goodwill they generated from Tennocon by nerfing those abilities rather than buffing the rest.

This is not on the same scale of Riven balancing or weapon balancing as those are tied to their MR ranks for an expected performance ballpark that caps how good a weapon can be. Abilities don't have that luxury because they immediately either have a purpose or they don't as they can be negatively affected in their own kits when trying to make the most out of other abilities.

Not only that, but if the base abilities are buffed, those abilities become harder to replace on their own source frames. Pissing everyone off days before the update by taking the most disliked approach just because it's easier to nerf than to buff without doing anything at all with regards to WHY those abilities are not used to begin with just reeks of self-sabotage.

let me reitherate myself: "there is no way to buff Y to the same level of X WITHOUT killing the entire game"
for example: Yes,they could have buffed every weapon to be like bramma(the ammo nerf is stupid tho) but then LITERALLY NOTHING can defy you at that point.

WF might be  horde killer but if you make everyone a god you would kill your game in no time (and that is what happens in almost every loot game)

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hace 4 minutos, saghzs dijo:

Radial blind doesnt need any buffs, it has a extremly strong augment and even just the base ability is very strong.

As for loki decoy, just make him a specter with your mod loadout on the frame and secondary.

that would kill wukong

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I have to say this. I was very very exciting initially when I know that we can trade abilities between different warframes.. I was so f hyped...

Now I am like this: I feel like my love for warframe has been nerfed a bit. And that's not a joke. 

This is not a new player system, please, please. PLEASE create a system that rewards people who already accomplished so much...not trying to kill so much hype before it even launches... 

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Just now, danberhe said:

let me reitherate myself: "there is no way to buff Y to the same level of X WITHOUT killing the entire game"
for example: Yes,they could have buffed every weapon to be like bramma(the ammo nerf is stupid tho) but then LITERALLY NOTHING can defy you at that point.

WF might be  horde killer but if you make everyone a god you would kill your game in no time (and that is what happens in almost every loot game)

Neft Roar and Eclipe understandable but why Defy Warcry Larva.

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5 minutes ago, Dariel77Angel said:

Thats all fine and dandy, but how many more systems do you want to throw at players who don't even know how to mod after they bought all the weapons and power leveled to MR8 in 3 days after installing the game?

Some MR8 don't even know where to farm argons and you are putting them through helminth?!
I am already starting to write copy pasta answers to questions like:
"What is that huge mouth in my orbiter?"
"How do I kill frames with it?"
"Will i get slot for all frames?"

Yeah. No DE. put it back to experienced players only, preferrably MR20+
At least that way players will at least know what they are doing.

In Patrick's voice: "Three! Take it or leave it"

In all seriousness I can't agree with 20+. As the system itself is for "Experienced Players" not "Veterans" specifically, though all Veterans are experienced players. Besides MR 20 is a lot of slots you have to farm through, and as an earlier post said we already have to grind 3 syndicate ranks for Entrati in order to receive the segment itself. MR 15 is a good enough balance here. Just high enough so you don't get access to it immediately but not so far off as to have to grind more than you would want.

 

Edited by Kald-Wing
added a needed don't to the last sentence
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Gotta give it to the DE devs for consistently pissing off their players. So an ability to "auto slot" Ayatan stars is SUCH AN END GAME experience that it requires 2 mastery rank higher than Helminth? Or that even the Market, Syndicate and clan Research weapons are SUCH A HIGH TIER content that can only be enjoyed by players who are 6 ranks higher than Helminth does?

 

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In regards to the recent adjustments or “nerfs” to the Helminth System. The reason I’m quoting is because I don’t care either way if I’m being honest. BackyardisTV coined a phrase that I simply fell in love with “Degrees of Overkill” and that’s all the Helminth system will be for a good chunk of people at the end of the day and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, I had a blast making a mythic vital strike mutation warrior that used an over-sized Estoc two handed just so I could role 56 D6 +128 damage and obliterate things and that’s before critical (someone will understand that).

The system is a vast improvement over other modular systems as from what we’ve seen: the ability additions aren’t permanent and only affect a config meaning we can truly experiment and alter on the fly, again with what we know, there’s a chance that’s not the case, but we’ll deal with that if it is the case.

I want to say I understand the frustration, but not in a sense of rage or what have you, more in a sense of confusion. The rules of the system continue to get jumbled, but I don’t think it’s fair to react the way some of you have “WOW WAY TO KILL THE SYSTEM BEFORE IT’S EVEN OUT” that does nothing and helps no one.

 


I want to say I also understand from the developer perspective as Pablo and Scott mentioned in instances that bringing a handful of things down to level is easier than bringing a cluster up, as not every item needs the same touch to be par. Meaning a global +100% damage buff could fail to put say the Soma and Miter at the same level. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be worth balancing them all individually, but I understand that the time could be spent otherwise and you could also run into a problem with the enemies needing to be more durable and yadayada it’s a cyclical issue that could’ve just been solved with bringing the outliers closer to par.

HOWEVER, I also want to say that balance isn’t a single scale or side, so when I look at the high outliers getting alteration I believe it’s fair criticism to ask about the lower outliers like Zephyr’s Air Burst that’s still likely gonna see seldom use even with it’s new alternative cast. So THAT is where I have questions and critique for the system as a whole; it can make it seem like you're developing via knee jerk reactions against the "ceiling" (upper echelon) without even caring about the "floor." 

 


On the changes themselves....I’m of the belief it honestly doesn’t matter...like at all.

MR is neigh arbitrary and has no consistency because of how the "progression" of the game occurs. You can be an MR 0 with 3,000+ hours and actually have the mastery of an MR 8 or so just for memes. Rivens have an arbitrary MR rank from 8-16 that doesn't actually influence them in anyway (I.e: MR8 Restriction can still be better than the MR16 one). I agree that maybe 12~15 is a good range; HOWEVER, the mastery system wasn't set up with Helminth in mind. Prior to this system every new player was instructed "Yeah after you get the prime, get rid of the base frame if you mastered it" just for pure slot efficiency and most new players aren't going to keep a frame they don't like up until MR8 unless they somehow find out the Helminth system is waiting for them from a friend or content creator, so maybe there's critique for both the mastery and sacrifice system:

  • Should players get warframe/weapon/companion/archwing/etc slots on mastery rank ups instead of just load out slots?
  • Is there information succinct enough IN GAME for a brand new player to progress and understand that they should keep frames without any outside source?
    • Is there information succinct enough IN GAME for a brand new player to know when it's okay to subsume a frame?
  • Could the Helminth system have been designed to work off of the frames that players MASTERED? Almost like clan research Helminth could have had a database.
  • Why is the Helminth system alower MR requirement than the ability to auto socket Ayatan Stars

These seem like fair questions to have, not that I feel entitled to an answer, but it's my train of thought as a player, do or don't with it what you will.

 

Any buff or ability that has better use gained is a win, because it’s a degree of overkill higher than you were before. I'm not even sure they could make Roar a value where it wouldn't still be better than some of the other choices, if we're strictly speaking terms of efficiency. DE could literally replace Roar and people would just do math to figure out what-- Nourish, they’d use Nourish.  Get rid of Nourish and something else...well that’s how Hydra’s work (it's yet another cyclical problem). Roar’s replacement, say Charge would then just be in competition with all the effective HP abilities except for the people generally putting on abilities for a different version of fun that’s not efficiency or overkill (and that's also fine). I still don’t even think Eclipse actually functions the way it’s supposed to so...yeah...

All that and guess what!? WARFRAME IS A COOP GAME SO IT INCLUDES THE COMBINATIONS. If I want the full Roar value? I'll bring Rhino, the team only needs one because it doesn't stack anyway and he wasn’t a bad frame choice to begin with so players can just subsume a "useless ability" for an ability that’s not hindered, so I don’t even know what it matters at the end of the day because the floodgates are opened. Therein lies another issue I have with the system, lack of rule consistency. With the change it’ll be some degree worse to bring a subsume roar than an actual roar, yet it’s perfectly fine if we just all sit in a non diminished cloak? As a player, it feels like you’re drawing a line in the sand with the consistency of lightning.

 

I’ll go ahead and put the rest aside for when the system is actually released, but I want our community to to do better in making critical points and discussion instead of reacting with spitfire and emotional outrage. That’s not to say that you don’t have a valid reason to feel the way you do even before the system is released, just convey it with tact and step off of on another's throats :D! 
 

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36 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Instead everyone will use Khora's Ensnare, because it does do pretty much the same thing as Larva.

Most early and mid game content can already be trivialized well before MR15... Helminth doesn't change that, it just gives us more toys.

Exactly. I was screaming about this the other day when people were talking about chroma nerfs cause he is "too meta" -- yeah and then another frame will take the meta slot. It's like they are averse to the concept of "best". Well, math is a thing, so unless all the weapons and abilities do mathematically the same damage, there will always be a best. I have no idea why DE/people keep fighting this idea.

If roar/larva get nerfed then smite/ensnare will just move up to take their place. So what then, nerf every ability until they all suck equally? Fun.

Edited by 9Drade
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I'm disappointed that this is a sticking point that somehow will ruin the experience for people who already met the MR15+ requirement and now all of the sudden they are acting like something has been taken from them.

Like other people having access to the system actively makes the system worse for you solely on the metric of MR gating.

And before anyone asks, I'm MR18 on Switch and I see no point behind arbitrary blocks on a system solely for the sake of "veteran" appeal, especially when most of said veterans will be done with the system in a week at least and a month or so at most and then start demanding more exclusive content anyway.

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I get that, but I have to say that I remember being MR8, and looking ahead was just weapons, frames, and that's about it. (Mag prime was still loot-able in the towers. it was looong ago)
I'm mr28 now, and if I were to make a new account, I wouldn't like to have to grind my way through endless weapons and frames to get to the interesting bits of the game.

In any case, MR8 players probably won't do anything terribly interesting with it, cause they're still learning the game mechanics.

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MR 10 and under make up the majority of the player base. Of course DE will conform to the majority. They're the cash pigs for DE. They are more likely to buy things outright with plat that they bought more so than the veterans who trade for plat. Veterans know how to play without having to spend a dime, new players not so much. 

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11 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

A roar of 99% damage increase for 4.32 seconds with a casting cost of 116.25 energy.

Why would anyone run this?

dBI36OF.jpg
Edit: Logged in to grab the ss.. doesn't include GP.. Why? For ESO, to buff any frame ability that it can and for general increased bursty damage anywhere else. There is a small sacrifice to run it like this but it's not that hard to upkeep it well, plus you can still stomp for CC.

Edited by Pzykdruhgs
Doesn't include GP
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Oh and btw, about this whole Helminth shenanigans:

Everything is just gimmicky. I didn't expect anything good from it (like Invisibility or Link) and we already received some nerfings because people, WHO HAVE NOT TESTED IT YET, are complaining about things in this UPCOMING update.

Those people are the reason why 99% of the community cannot have nice things in this darn game since 2014.

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