The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Pzykdruhgs]

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this system devolves to:

Those frames mentioned get their actual abilities nerfed, because that is apparently a problem.. and then so when we finally get them with helminth there shouldn't be a problem because the ability is now more in line with how nerfed they should be (whatever that's supposed to mean in a game where we're 2-shotting most things)

or

+25% Spd/Dur/Eff/Range/Str/Aspd frame dependant (similar to lich) because obv. any ability system is going to have a problem where people are picking a few of the abilities over other ones, which is apparently a problem to DE.

[CMDR_Overwerk]

Honestly, the problem with these nerfs is that abilities that were "the strongest" that got nerfed will just be swaped for unerfed abilitites and THEY will become the next in line to get delet. For example, nidus larva was (very unessesarily) nerfed. But guess what? i wasn't going to use larva to group things, because khora has, in my opinion, a BETTER larva. And that one wasn't nerfed because frankly, it does not need to

[ZeJagd-Xero]

^Well DE just made my day.. From MR 15 to MR 8..

I am MR 20, Plesae REDUCE ME TO MR 8 So I can participate in this 5tupidity and be excited about it!

THANK YOU DE! BRAVA

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

DE: Why not give the meta competition sometimes instead of always killing it. Do you always want things to be average?

[Darkmega18]

2 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

I would like to know how much resources and time you need for that ...

seemed like super "common" resources ate like in 5000 pieces. uncommon rareish stuff was around 125 (hexenon), rare was like 3 (moon flowers) but it seems to fluctuate on the cost for various things, like, 5000 cubic diodes was pretty high. but the rare of the percentage you get for each feeding of an item was also dependent on previous feedings and how long ago the last feeding of the item was based on a green filling triangle pointing up to a red filling triangle pointing down on the screen. where full red triangle was like 2% of a 100 percentage based meter for a given secretion, and it gave 30% for a fully green filled triangle. so it definitely depends on the variety of resources you can feed. so, farm lots of different things.

Infusing abilities and taking them off was instant, but eating a frame has to leave it digest over a day, then every ability probably also has a different secretion cost. so, it's pretty damn random. but why you'd choose to put every ability on every frame once to test vs just "figuring it out via mental common sense and if that kind of thing would fit into your current build and synergize as a piece of that frames kit" is beyond me.

savvy?

[9Drade]

Just now, (PS4)GameflowPRO said:

DE: Why not give the meta competition sometimes instead of always killing it. Do you always want things to be average?

Yes.

[SpentCasings]

1 minute ago, CMDR_Overwerk said:

Honestly, the problem with these nerfs is that abilities that were "the strongest" that got nerfed will just be swaped for unerfed abilitites and THEY will become the next in line to get delet. For example, nidus larva was (very unessesarily) nerfed. But guess what? i wasn't going to use larva to group things, because khora has, in my opinion, a BETTER larva. And that one wasn't nerfed because frankly, it does not need to

Too late. People are gonna switch to that and its gonna get nerfed....

[AANGDETO]

Some (a few) missions in the steel path are somewhat challenging.

But even lvl 100 sortie missions are really easy, cheesable even.

edit : fair warning, I didn't finish the steel path yet, but I like it so far

[KurtisPrime]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

Abilities are not weapons, dude. Expecting for the Stug to be buffed to the level of Bramma is absurd because DE said in 2018 that weapon damage ballpark is tied to its MR rank. This means that Stug is NOT meant to compete with Bramma in any way, shape or form and people should make their peace with that. You are supposed to graduate and move on from weaker weapons to stronger weapons even if you like the weaker weapons. This is true for every single stats-based game ever since the very first Final Fantasy game in the NES. Your first weapon is not meant to compete to a weapon you get in the final dungeon.

Abilities on the other hand are not tied to MR rank. Not only that, but some frames only have 1 useful ability vs. other frames with 2 or 3, which results in those frames being used more. So unless you wish to present the argument that you are supposed to graduate from abilities in the same frame then I can't possibly agree with you. Heck, I don't think many people will agree with you.

The warframe are Gated because stronger one are tied to the planet progression. The "OP" frame are in quest and are MR gate already.

[-CM-Darkvamper]

Sigh, there goes all my hype for this system, with that tiny little strike-through number. When you say you're making a system tailored around veteran players, and thusly also balanced around what we can already do, and then just make it MR 8  instead of MR 15 to get access... It just shows your promises mean #*!% all. Your average active player is supposedly MR 10-11. 5 MR ranks is really not that hard to get if you want it, just buy the weapons who's bp is available in the market, build and level them.
Now it's gonna be balanced around them, rather than the older players, who have most frames anyways, and just want to toy around with goofy stuff.
I get some of the nerfs proposed, and depending on the actual numbers it might not be too bad, but regardless, it already shows the mentality behind the system. Nerfs rather than buffs. Let's not make decoy good or fun or interesting, let's make larva bad instead!
For anyone who has hype left: remember that breach surge will be nerfed in the same fashion, thanks to garuda, ensnare as well, since it's pretty equivalent to larva, and smite infusion and the volt equivalent too, because they'll probably be too strong as well. Don't forget that 100% armor strip is too strong as well (cfr. corrosive nerfs in february), so anything (i.e. ash, hildryn) that gets there, or close, will be nerfed as well! Have fun everyone, it's gonna be totes amazing.

Ah well, guess I'll check out the heart of deimos by the end of september or something, when most of the disappointing stuff DE will still ram through has passed, and it's another system they leave to rot in the dust. Another pretty little content isle of broken hype and dreams. And now that we finally had a tennocon where the promises they made seemed actually achieveable too.

[KosmicKerman]

DE: We are worried that players will predominately pick certain abilities. 

Also DE: Nyx is donating Mind Control

[Olematon.Mies]

Imagine creating something intended to be accessed later in the game by high mastery players...

 

....and then making absolutely sure that new players can access it within 1 week of installing the game.

[Damocles]

DE: Here's a new feature we're releasing
Players: Nice! *reaches hand out to receive*
DE: It's nerfed now
Players: wut?
DE: yeah
Players: well, whatever... send it over *still left hanging*
DE: wait, nerfed again
Players: *retracts hand* are you serious? *Angry lu-ah-user noises*
DE: ye, still need?
Players: f*** no! It's useless now
DE: Alright thanks, that confirms it's ready for release *red texts deploy*

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

The warframe are Gated because stronger one are tied to the planet progression. The "OP" frame are in quest and are MR gate already.

All base Waframes are MR 0 requirements and you can't subsume Primes. I don't understand the point you're trying to make unless you are strictly referring to the farming requirements, which still mean nothing when you have plat before even completing Vor's Prize. You can literally buy your way to MR 8.

Prime frames don't deal better damage or have stronger abilities than their base frames, with Rhino Prime and Valkyr Prime being the only exceptions I can think of because of Iron Skin and Warcry scaling with their increases armor stats and even then they are still MR 0 requirements.

[AANGDETO]

il y a 6 minutes, LewdInspector a dit :

Imagine creating something intended to be accessed later in the game...

 

....and then making absolutely sure that new players can access it within 1 week of installing the game.

And yet less than 1% of the players have top standing with ventkinds, less than 2% have hijacked an enemy crewship in the railjack missions, less than 2% have ever created a MOa pet, less than 2% have unlocked an entire focus tree, less than 2% have ever killed a lich...

 

[Arniox]

19 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

Not to be too offensive, but this decision is literally so stupid. 

MR 8 players are still brand new to the game and giving them the ability to destroy warframes before they even get to fully test them and play with them is a stupid idea. 

This should be locked at a higher mastery rank. It is something players spend their entire game hours working towards while also learning about all the warframes and their ins and outs. 

This should have stayed AT LEAST master rank 15. If not even higher. 

I want to know the genuine reason why you all at DE, in charge of balancing it game design CONSTANTLY break your promise to us players. You promised us this was going to be a high level, end game system. You literally said in the reveal stream this was NOT for new players and that it's not for the fient if heart or whatever and then you go completely back on your words. You're so bad at holding a promise that I honestly don't trust anything DE say anymore because they constantly go against publically stated things. 

Can I PLEASE get an answer to why this decision that breaks your promise was made.

[TheWhitterMatter]

I am officially not excited for the update. You done #*!%ed up again DE. I won't even farm for warframes anymore, because what's the point. I'm don't complaining, because you don't care about veterans. NO, don't claim you do. You don't. Stop lying to us, DE. Stop Lying to us.

[master_of_destiny]

Just now, Kald-Wing said:

In Patrick's voice: "Three! Take it or leave it"

In all seriousness I can't agree with 20+. As the system itself is for "Experienced Players" not "Veterans" specifically, though all Veterans are experienced players. Besides MR 20 is a lot of slots you have to farm through, and as an earlier post said we already have to grind 3 syndicate ranks for Entrati in order to receive the segment itself. MR 15 is a good enough balance here. Just high enough so you get access to it immediately but not so far off as to have to grind more than you would want.

Let me offer a slightly different perspective (I am agreeing with your point, just for different reasons).  Accessing Grendel, a frame, requires you buy locator beacons.  Said beacons require that you have 25 vitus essence per beacon.  Vitus essence drops from arbitrations, at 1 per reward cycle and with the potential for dropping as rewards.  To unlock arbitrations you need to have 100% star chart completion.  This means a single frame requires you have all nodes beaten and grind through a pseudo endgame mode (I call it this because of the enemy levels and lack of traditional revives, not because it's a viable endgame).

 

Now let's look at the ability to screw with abilities on warframes.  Less than 10% of all MR possible needs to be gained at MR 8.  To unlock the node you'll have to have multiple relays completed, many nodes completed, multiple worlds accessible, and that's largely the requirement simply to get to the node that the new open world is on.  This means there is effectively no locking on the system, but Grendel requires a huge amount of unlock.  What?

 

 

Let's then look at MR 15 as a lock.  562.5k of the 1878.002k possible.  That's 30.0% of all things unlocked.  This means that a player would actually have to have multiple frames, and have experienced enough of the game to understand how powers work.  It would also effectively halve the syndicate grind to unlock the thing, meaning an unlock in slightly over a week of grind rather than two weeks. 

Why would DE do this?  Ostensibly they want a powerful system hidden far enough into progression.  Why go to MR 8?  Ostensibly for accessibility.  Ostensibly the system will get a better tutorial that mods, planetary unlocks, or the interactions between powers (poor definition of multiplicative and additive natures).  Maybe this will mean the new player experience is going to finally do this, rather than have it locked behind a text wall that is hard to find.  I reserve judgement.  My problem is that DE isn't being new player friendly here.

Not new player friendly?  Do I despise newbies, and want infinite veteran content?  No, my point is that new players have to figure out dozens of systems, a hud that can be choked with buff and de-buff icons that make no sense, and through all of this they want to add more.  Now a player could create a warframe like Limbo, immediately replace banish with a damage ability, and hate Limbo from from moment one.  If you're never required to play a frame by default, and can immediately switch powers, then a new player might see value in giving up a "useless" ability and getting something they already know.  Give up banish, get roar for more damage.  Limbo is squishy, so roar leads to deaths, and the player hates Limbo because it sucks.  It sucks because they never learned to crowd control, because they could just slap a band-aid on without ever engaging.

 

MR 15 was a sweet spot.  It doesn't lock players out who have experienced the game, but it also doesn't allow people to side-step learning about different play styles.  With MR 8 being the base I know of plenty of people who will give up on complex tactical play, and focus on DPS.  It's easier, and with the enemies being bullet sponges in certain modes it's an easy win.  That is not guiding players, and it's a disservice.  This was never about locking people out, MR 15 was about confirming that they had a basic understanding on something beyond more pew-pew=better.  

[Dariel]

Someone in DE messed up big time.
Now they are backtracking and making half the community angry.

Seems like Warframe got too popular with Deimos update.. and as we all know, when something is too popular it will be nerfed.
DE is nerfing themselves and their earnings for the quarter.

Please try buffing things for a change next time. Like enemy difficulty so that you wont have to nerf powerful abilities.

 

[KurtisPrime]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

All base Waframes are MR 0 requirements and you can't subsume Primes. I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Prime frames don't deal better damage or have stronger abilities than their base frames, with Rhino Prime and Valkyr Prime being the only exceptions I can think of because of Iron Skin and Warcry scaling with their increases armor stats and even then they are still MR 0 requirements.

The quest for the warframe have MR requirement. 

[-CM-Darkvamper]

1 minute ago, AANGDETO said:

And yet less than 1% of the players have top standing with ventkinds, less than 2% have hijacked an enemy crewship in the railjack missions, less than 2% have ever created a MOa pet, less than 2% have unlocked an entire focus tree, less than 2% have ever killed a lich...

 

That's not a really fair assesment, considering achievement stats are over all players that ever played, and this game has existed for a long time.

[Green_Turtl]

Sigh, and I had hoped this was "endgame" content, but it turns out its just another tool to keep newer players interested in playing the game for 2-3 months instead.

[Arniox]

3 minutes ago, TheWhitterMatter said:

I am officially not excited for the update. You done #*!%ed up again DE. I won't even farm for warframes anymore, because what's the point. I'm don't complaining, because you don't care about veterans. NO, don't claim you do. You don't.

This. 

[Scissorsmith]

On 2020-08-12 at 8:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

 

 

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

That’s all for now!

If I could downvote...

I'll give benefit of doubt, since I don't see exact numbers, but everything with this change looks so, so wrong.

Like, I saw the trailer for Heart of Deimos, and the helminth system seemed amazing, capable of increasing frame variety and allowing to make many of them much more usable by adapting an ability to fix main weakness. I thought it was a stroke of genius, allowing to change only 1 ability, and picking 1 to give per frame to avoid most of the issues this system could bring. Honestly, only came back to WF cause it seemed like DE was getting it together, hell, even said so in region chat "Hey, DE had a rough time since somewhere about exploiter launch, but they seem to be getting it together ever since they started fixing liches/railjack and all!".

Well, now I feel like an idiot.

Why would you ever do this? It will only change the system from something that could have benefited the weakest frames a lot and strong frames a bit into something that will only benefit both a little and funnel people into more meta-choices rather than allowing experimentation, quite likely. Also, this will be a "feels bad" moment for everyone, why would you ever want that? It will also make you feel kinda sub-optimal when using any of these abilities, since you'll need to mod to adapt to them, then pay full energy cost to use them only to get a scuffed version. Everything is wrong with this. You should have just not picked some of these if you think they're too strong. Hell, say "these abilities were too strong, so after a bit of testing, we're changing them into THESE abilities instead". You would have got some slack, sure, but nowhere near quite as much as you will now. Now you're gonna get a lot of (rightfully) angry people and lose a lot of goodwill. The MR requirement decrease is also not thought out well - there was already no point going beyong MR 12 except rivens, and literally no point going over MR 16 even with rivens, but that is a minor issue.

Honestly, whatever, but if it's starting like this, it sets a bad tone for the rest of the expansion. Should have known DE never learns from their mistakes. Was excited for launch, but I assume it will be a buggy mess with horrible economy like always on launch, if this tells me anything. And I thought they finally learned. Sigh. Well, I guess I only have myself to blame expecting anything else from DE and putting my hopes in them, they have set the bar very low for launches and being super stubborn about the dumbest things.

  

26 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Rhino's kit is old. Roar is strong, but that's ok because the rest is a bit outdated. It evens out for this frame.
If you want to bring 40+ abilitites onpar with roar regardless of the rest of the respective warframe kits then you create a massive power creep.
You know have frames that get boosted twice. Their subsume-ability gets brought on roar level and they get another ability equivalent to roar - without having the caveats of current Rhino.
Pablo already mentioned the implications of buffing everything in his recent interview with Shy (I linked the video).
The moment DE decided to put those six abilitites into the pool, they shot themselves into the foot.

Honestly, this system is mostly a buff for solo players, because you could already do more or less all of these combos in a team. There is little power creep in this system - all the combos were already available, only powercreep is if you wanted to combine abilities of more than 4 frames in a single run, that included something from the list, but where on earth would you even need that? That's a super niche scenario. Something like that might make it into the meta only a handful of people can do, but matters little for the majority, only allows combos they would see in premade parties easier.

[ZeJagd-Xero]

Honestly DE, I think you do not want the old players of your game, in your game anymore. Thats what I think. You hype it up, like its gonna be the best thing you have ever done and then you dump a JDAM on those expectations! You are the most AWESOME people!