The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Hayaies]

way to step into the S#&$ DE. knew you woudnt be able to release ONE

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

Just now, Green_Turtl said:

Sigh, and I had hoped this was "endgame" content, but it turns out its just another tool to keep newer players interested in playing the game for 2-3 months instead.

Isn't that all the updates are anyways. Just something to keep the players interested until the next update.

[danberhe]

hace 27 minutos, SpentCasings dijo:

Not really. Who runs a STR Loki?

i mean for helminth, the buff he is talking about is for helminth

[kuryux]

On 2020-08-12 at 2:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Lame af. 

Removed mah like from original post to show disappointment as downvote aint possible

[RevenantPhoenix]

I don't think nerfing these abilities is a good direction to go with this system. Roar, for example could be nerfed to a 10% damage boost and it would still be far more appealing than something like Decoy or Ice Wave. I think it would be a lot better to look at ways to improve the less desirable subsumed abilities instead. This would not only make them better alternatives for the Helminth system, but would improve the warframes that own them. Ice Wave feels like a bad prospect for every other warframe because it already feels underwhelming to use as Frost.

[No_Quarter]

All abilities should be a tad weaker on other warframes compared to the source warframe. Not much, but someone spent thousands o fyears mastering it.

I think that's a good call and I hope it gets unified across the board no matter now much people cry because of it.

[Casardis]

27 minutes ago, Synpai said:

In regards to the recent adjustments or “nerfs” to the Helminth System. The reason I’m quoting is because I don’t care either way if I’m being honest. BackyardisTV coined a phrase that I simply fell in love with “Degrees of Overkill” and that’s all the Helminth system will be for a good chunk of people at the end of the day and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, I had a blast making a mythic vital strike mutation warrior that used an over-sized Estoc two handed just so I could role 56 D6 +128 damage and obliterate things and that’s before critical (someone will understand that).

The system is a vast improvement over other modular systems as from what we’ve seen: the ability additions aren’t permanent and only affect a config meaning we can truly experiment and alter on the fly, again with what we know, there’s a chance that’s not the case, but we’ll deal with that if it is the case.

I want to say I understand the frustration, but not in a sense of rage or what have you, more in a sense of confusion. The rules of the system continue to get jumbled, but I don’t think it’s fair to react the way some of you have “WOW WAY TO KILL THE SYSTEM BEFORE IT’S EVEN OUT” that does nothing and helps no one.

 

I want to say I also understand from the developer perspective as Pablo and Scott mentioned in instances that bringing a handful of things down to level is easier than bringing a cluster up, as not every item needs the same touch to be par. Meaning a global +100% damage buff could fail to put say the Soma and Miter at the same level. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be worth balancing them all individually, but I understand that the time could be spent otherwise and you could also run into a problem with the enemies needing to be more durable and yadayada it’s a cyclical issue that could’ve just been solved with bringing the outliers closer to par.

HOWEVER, I also want to say that balance isn’t a single scale or side, so when I look at the high outliers getting alteration I believe it’s fair criticism to ask about the lower outliers like Zephyr’s Air Burst that’s still likely gonna see seldom use even with it’s new alternative cast. So THAT is where I have questions and critique for the system as a whole; it can make it seem like you're developing via knee jerk reactions against the "ceiling" (upper echelon) without even caring about the "floor." 

 

On the changes themselves....I’m of the belief it honestly doesn’t matter...like at all.

MR is neigh arbitrary and has no consistency because of how the "progression" of the game occurs. You can be an MR 0 with 3,000+ hours and actually have the mastery of an MR 8 or so just for memes. Rivens have an arbitrary MR rank from 8-16 that doesn't actually influence them in anyway (I.e: MR8 Restriction can still be better than the MR16 one). I agree that maybe 12~15 is a good range; HOWEVER, the mastery system wasn't set up with Helminth in mind. Prior to this system every new player was instructed "Yeah after you get the prime, get rid of the base frame if you mastered it" just for pure slot efficiency and most new players aren't going to keep a frame they don't like up until MR8 unless they somehow find out the Helminth system is waiting for them from a friend or content creator, so maybe there's critique for both the mastery and sacrifice system:

• Should players get warframe/weapon/companion/archwing/etc slots on mastery rank ups instead of just load out slots?
• Is there information succinct enough IN GAME for a brand new player to progress and understand that they should keep frames without any outside source?
  • Is there information succinct enough IN GAME for a brand new player to know when it's okay to subsume a frame?
• Could the Helminth system have been designed to work off of the frames that players MASTERED? Almost like clan research Helminth could have had a database.
• Why is the Helminth system alower MR requirement than the ability to auto socket Ayatan Stars? 

These seem like fair questions to have, not that I feel entitled to an answer, but it's my train of thought as a player, do or don't with it what you will.

 

Any buff or ability that has better use gained is a win, because it’s a degree of overkill higher than you were before. I'm not even sure they could make Roar a value where it wouldn't still be better than some of the other choices, if we're strictly speaking terms of efficiency. DE could literally replace Roar and people would just do math to figure out what-- Nourish, they’d use Nourish.  Get rid of Nourish and something else...well that’s how Hydra’s work (it's yet another cyclical problem). Roar’s replacement, say Charge would then just be in competition with all the effective HP abilities except for the people generally putting on abilities for a different version of fun that’s not efficiency or overkill (and that's also fine). I still don’t even think Eclipse actually functions the way it’s supposed to so...yeah...

All that and guess what!? WARFRAME IS A COOP GAME SO IT INCLUDES THE COMBINATIONS. If I want the full Roar value? I'll bring Rhino, the team only needs one because it doesn't stack anyway and he wasn’t a bad frame choice to begin with so players can just subsume a "useless ability" for an ability that’s not hindered, so I don’t even know what it matters at the end of the day because the floodgates are opened. Therein lies another issue I have with the system, lack of rule consistency. With the change it’ll be some degree worse to bring a subsume roar than an actual roar, yet it’s perfectly fine if we just all sit in a non diminished cloak? As a player, it feels like you’re drawing a line in the sand with the consistency of lightning.

 

I’ll go ahead and put the rest aside for when the system is actually released, but I want our community to to do better in making critical points and discussion instead of reacting with spitfire and emotional outrage. That’s not to say that you don’t have a valid reason to feel the way you do even before the system is released, just convey it with tact and step off of on another's throats :D! 
 

Good informative post

[Hayaies]

Way to step into the S#&$ DE.

At this point you gotta be trying to kill of the game so you can make a sequel? No? Then maybee reevaluate if the people making desicions like this need to have that specific position.

 

Oh, theirs an autocensor, good that exists. would be a shame if somebody had to read mean mean words xD

 

[KurtisPrime]

Just now, No_Quarter said:

All abilities should be a tad weaker on other warframes compared to the source warframe. Not much, but someone spent thousands o fyears mastering it.

I think that's a good call and I hope it gets unified across the board no matter now much people cry because of it.

Let not make crap ability crappie FFS.

 

[LixSin]

1 minute ago, No_Quarter said:

All abilities should be a tad weaker on other warframes compared to the source warframe. Not much, but someone spent thousands o fyears mastering it.

I think that's a good call and I hope it gets unified across the board no matter now much people cry because of it.

Yes, let's make Decoy even worse, that's a great idea!

[Frost.Umbra]

Nerfing is not the answer for these. Maybe if the other powers weren't so lame in comparison we wouldn't be stuck with Roar, Larva etc etc.

[FSK41]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb xlMxNewTangaM79:

by comments like this, all good abilities get nerfed, ty, now this system is completly ussles

it is not useless at ALL even if they take inaros 1,it is not useless,it doesn't give you OP stuff,but its not useless,finishers on all warframes,thats not bad at all 

[Hayaies]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb No_Quarter:

All abilities should be a tad weaker on other warframes compared to the source warframe. Not much, but someone spent thousands o fyears mastering it.

I think that's a good call and I hope it gets unified across the board no matter now much people cry because of it.

nice idea, but for that they would have needed to pick abilitys that are remotly useful for more then 1/3 of the frames if youre generous but no. we went with the least impactful they could have chosen so we dont have to much fun

[Marquis_Catriel]

On 2020-08-13 at 1:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

THE HELMINTH: DEV WORKSHOP.

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

19th August Part 1 just killed my hype and wasted my time and resources farming all of the old frames.

So Nerfing is only thing DE can do I guess. Very similar as Scarlet Spear situation. I think nothing to look forward to when the update comes. 

[Asterionfu]

hace 5 minutos, No_Quarter dijo:

All abilities should be a tad weaker on other warframes compared to the source warframe. Not much, but someone spent thousands o fyears mastering it.

I think that's a good call and I hope it gets unified across the board no matter now much people cry because of it.

oh yeah, let's make abilities no one is going to use weaker, what a great idea

[(PSN)thegarada]

The system will add power creep. Pre-curbing some skills is not a bad idea, compared to doing nerfs after people invested in the system. I would really hate to subsume a frame to get a skill, then it get nerfed right after. Though, I would like to know how much are these nerfs. If defy goes from 1.5K max armor to 1.2K or 1K that will be fine. If it goes to 500, then it is useless. Knowing these numbers is key.

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

The quest for the warframe have MR requirement. 

That is meaningless when you can buy them with plat even before you have completed Vor's Prize. Farming requirements are separate from usage requirements.

[AnhurShu]

I really disagree with the people suggesting replacing the nerfed abilities with others from their respective frames' kits. That doesn't fix the actual problem, that just makes the Helminth system even less worthwhile. The problem isn't that those abilities are so overwhelmingly powerful, it's that so many of the other abilities are so lackluster. They should buff or rework the other abilities not nerf these. 

Also, I said this before but it bears repeating, for those who think giving these abilities to the Helminth means no one will play their original frames, that's a good thing. If giving access to any one ability in a Warframe's kit takes away any reason to play it, the problem is the frame's kit and it needs a rework. DE uses player statistics (i.e., how much a frame is played) to help determine which ones get a rework. 

Also, just for reference, I have three builds using the Helminth planned and only one of them uses one of these abilities, Wukong. I plan to replace Defy on Wukong with either Roar or War Cry (haven't decided which), I'm replacing survivability with damage output and also because I want to make the joke that Wukong is now a Howler Monkey. My other two builds are Petrify on Nekros, replacing Terrify (still suits his kit and much more useful) and Elemental Ward on Rhino, replacing Roar (armor bonus from Ice element for more Iron Skin).

[bibmobello]

I hope i will not have to rank up  the  frame again after subsuming an ability because i will pass even this time.

[Hayaies]

Gerade eben schrieb (PS4)thegarada:

The system will add power creep. Pre-curbing some skills is not a bad idea, compared to doing nerfs after people invested in the system. I would really hate to subsume a frame to get a skill, then it get nerfed right after. Though, I would like to know how much are these nerfs. If defy goes from 1.5K max armor to 1.2K or 1K that will be fine. If it goes to 500, then it is useless. Knowing these numbers is key.

the answer to that is probably dependig on how much we scream at DE now. they dont balance based on reason but on how much backlash theire gonna get

[master_of_destiny]

2 minutes ago, AANGDETO said:

And yet less than 1% of the players have top standing with ventkinds, less than 2% have hijacked an enemy crewship in the railjack missions, less than 2% have ever created a MOa pet, less than 2% have unlocked an entire focus tree, less than 2% have ever killed a lich...

 

I don't disagree.  

 

That said, let's discuss numbers.  It seems like you're quoting the Steam achievement values.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  By that logic, 10.2% of the player base has reached silver disciple, which is rank 8.  Gold Hunter, MR 15, is 5.3%.

 

I'm going to have a laugh at this one, not because I disagree but because of the history.  Steam includes everyone who played.  Right now my friends list includes a lot of people who long since quit the game, and never reached the MR 8 level.  The laugh comes from the comment of hundreds of thousands of registered users, but a highly dedicated player base likely more accurately called at tens of thousands world wide.

The argument that less than 2% have done certain things is accurate.  It's also incredibly difficult to say anything in regards to the actual count of players doing things because steam doesn't provide a total player count (to my knowledge).  I've used the argument in the past, and had to meter it by saying that the low percentage was also a function of players downloading, registering, and simply leaving before things could be released.

 

 

Let's try a thought experiment.  You'd need to do spy missions to complete the star chart, right?  That would require a cipher to be solved.  The rub is only 64.4% of players have it.  That means either players left before completing any cipher, or player the game before spies were a thing and therefore they never had to do a cipher.  Either way, this shows about 36% of players either have engaged so little that it isn't funny or never engaged.

[KuroganeQwaser]

i think This is ENDGAME content, so the MR 16 should still be there !!!!!!

Zitat :

We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system.

Zitat end.

very experienced Warframe players are at MR 8 ???????

are you kidding ME??????????????

I think MR15-16 should be the default for THIS.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

2 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

I hope i will not have to rank up  the  frame again after subsuming an ability because i will pass even this time.

Been said that frames dont need to be ranked, just make sure you have previously mastered it though.

[Darkmega18]

Unironically, decoy's not a bad ability if you've got a place to hide it. it's range of effect and target priority makes enemies just stand and look in it's general direction menacingly, and melee enemies will try to run up and hit it always. so, disarming a whole room of dudes, then plopping it down in a corner and having everyone try to hit the decoy for a little bit is a pretty valid thing. Even liches waste their grab on it if you pop it right in front of them. if it only got your adaptation and shield gating and stuff it'd be better. I honestly find less use for switch teleport than decoy... :V

[Dariel]

9 minutes ago, Scissorsmith said:

I'll give benefit of doubt, since I don't see exact numbers, but everything with this change looks so, so wrong.

Like, I saw the trailer for Heart of Deimos, and the helminth system seemed amazing, capable of increasing frame variety and allowing to make many of them much more usable by adapting an ability to fix main weakness. I thought it was a stroke of genius, allowing to change only 1 ability, and picking 1 to give per frame to avoid most of the issues this system could bring. Honestly, only came back to WF cause it seemed like DE was getting it together, hell, even said so in region chat "Hey, DE had a rough time since somewhere about exploiter launch, but they seem to be getting it together ever since they started fixing liches/railjack and all!".

Well, now I feel like an idiot.

"getting it together" was the general sentiment for the year so far.
Our clan had people coming back after 6months - 2 years of hiatus.

Now... not sure what will happen. Back to struggling for survival in the worst case.