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The Helminth: Dev Workshop


[DE]Rebecca

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12 minutes ago, Hawk197 said:

Players don't need Helminth. If I even use a single brain cell, I can easily clear a 60+ minute Survival run. Having these powerful abilities didn't make us not die if we weren't already not dying, it opened up more possibilities. Nerfing these abilities doesn't make the other garbage ones any more appetizing. It's not like I was sitting here, thinking to myself "Boy, I would love to use Decoy, but Defy is just so much stronger. If only Defy was 5% weaker, I could actually consider using Decoy!". I'm not less inclined to use Defy and more inclined to use Decoy, Defy is such a powerful ability that any tanker would naturally use this over Decoy regardless if Defy was nerfed by 5% or 95%. There is a reason there's a certain meme was created.

 

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All my fellow vets should remember these dark days. DE needs to buff other abilities, or change how they act once they become subsumed.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just at the point where I really don't care about the nerfs. They're annoying, but to be honestly, I was more excited for stuff like armor stripping with seeking shurikens or armor stripping with banshees sonic boom, or etc. 

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18 minutes ago, kalad2 said:

as a Valkyr main, I approve of most of these nerfs, assuming they're not too intensive(have them perform at, say, 3/4s the capacity of the original frame)

As a Valkyr main you are limited to a single mentality,  and when 42 other frame types exist. Your frame's identity it a hysterical cat lady with finishers and life strike claws.

How does nerfing your main frame's contribution make you approve of its subsumption? 

Are you so insecure about your main frame that you feel it to be worthless if other have one of your skills? A skill hardly worth using looking at the list, even at full power.

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il y a 13 minutes, SiliconHydra a dit :

Knowing that there is a syndicate standing gate between launch and us subsuming Warframes one can assume there will be plenty of time to work out the details. 

Not so sure to be honest, I mean if they use the same testing team we might just be getting the same crappy nerfs and Sht like we just got...

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4 minutes ago, RevenantPhoenix said:

You raise some fair points, and I find the bulk of your post agreeable. I guess I'm just of the opinion that something like Roar for example is still going to be disproportionately popular with any reasonable nerf, so why fight it? I'm not fond of the other ability nerfs either because I think- while they are certainly going to be strong options- they're more niche in their application (Warcry), or serve as an alternative to current metas (Dispensary).

I think your point about other powers (like Fireblast) being weaker via Helminth is a good one. My issue there is that those make sense. "You get a great armor stripping ability but it's not as powerful because you lack that Warframe's mechanic." That sounds logical. That's a good consideration for a player to make when weighing an option like that. "You can have this damage boost but it's weaker because we said so and we don't want as many people to use it." That feels arbitrary, heavy-handed, and sloppy by comparison.

I just don't agree. Think of it as Rhino having a passive that makes Roar stronger on him. 

4 minutes ago, RevenantPhoenix said:

Ultimately, the stated goal behind these nerfs is to make these powers not as overwhelmingly attractive, and I just don't see it working out that way in practice. I think it's a hasty decision that's being made way too close to the update's release. I think the majority of players were always going to flock to whatever limited range of abilities constitute the new meta, and they are still going to do that. I think if they want to "solve" that, they should do so by improving the alternatives by reworking lackluster warframes or individual abilities, as you said. I think that way they could potentially expand that meta, or at least make some new options that are worth considering in certain contexts, which in my opinion is an acceptable place for most powers to wind up. I don't expect all powers to be equally valuable, I'm aware that's simply not a realistic outcome.

Also, to be clear, these nerfs don't really affect me, personally. When this system was announced I was intrigued by the possibility of improving my frames in areas where they are lacking. Being able to give Well of Life to a loadout that's lacking healing options, or being able to shore up energy regen without relying on Zenurik is appealing to me. I also like the thematic/flavor possibilities like giving Ember Firewalker, for example. When they announced Rhino would be able to donate roar I just kinda shrugged because while it's really strong and meta, that's just not as interesting to me and I still don't intend to use the system that way. I just take issue with the how and why behind these nerfs. I think it would be better to ship the powers as they were, and improve the situation by reworking/buffing frames or individual abilities that need it later.

I have Magus Repair, so I'll make little use of Well of Life, but I'm approaching it the same way. Protea's getting Molt before anything, simply because I want her to have a speed boost and CC and I can get two in one in a from consistent with how I mod her. 

I cannot in any way fault DE for taking steps not to give the playerbase another Kuva Bramma. In fact, I consider them correct by default in doing so, even if I thought that players flocking to Roar were overestimating it. 

I think everyone agrees that there are trash frames and trash abilities. But this is not the update that fixes that. They did in fact make some efforts to do so, like turning Well of Life into another Blood Altar. But they can't rework the entire roster in one update and it's wildly unreasonable to have that expectation. 

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On 2020-08-12 at 2:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

 

Bad abilities still bad abilities,

this nerf only made strong skills less strong, but still these overlap any other, unless it is a nerf that will make it extremely short duration or a very small buff, but that way the system breaks before it even arrives, the skills could come with some extra effect causing all skills become unique and usable for example, saryn's molt was an invocation with additional corrosive damage and would explode when the duration was over, or the vauban's tesla nervos would stay around the character  shock repelling anyone who enters the action range with an activation delay between hits, or the mirage eclipse got weaker, but could switch between day and night at any time, something like that.

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2 minutes ago, Arniox said:

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just at the point where I really don't care about the nerfs. They're annoying, but to be honestly, I was more excited for stuff like armor stripping with seeking shurikens or armor stripping with banshees sonic boom, or etc. 

I mean, you can get easier armor stripping from Corrosive Projection and Corrosive damage. Stripping armor is easy enough to do as is. Hurting utility or buffing abilities like Larva or Roar just makes the overall experience and customization worse.

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Honestly, I've stopped caring about the Helminth system until it comes out. Imma just ignore absolutely everything relating to the buffs/nerf and wait for it to come out. 

The one biggest thing that DE NEED to fix is the Mr 8 requirement. That is way too low and DE have broken their promises far too often to make this a "new player experience". I haven't trusted DE for years and even tennocon makes me suspicious but now DE have lost all remaining trust I've had in them for breaking their promise about this being an end game system. 

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The larva, defy, and dispenser nerfs are so nonsense. larva just groups, dispenser just gives stuff we already have in our gear, and null star exists so why would you use defy? Trying to bring good abilities like roar, eclipse (I have 0 clue why we didn't get sleight of hand), and warcry down to the level of bad abilities is literally making the game worse. It is watching the game we love take BLATANTLY OBVIOUS steps backward that is pissing everyone off.

We are about to hit mastery rank 30, which is going to open up a completely new form of endgame and they are squandering the mr 12 ranks and up with lack of content. worrying about were their endgame players currently are isn't the answer. mr15 was perfect because it PULLS mr12 up to that point. liches should be mr 12 locked and this should be mr 15. Make incentives stop giving away progress.

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1 minute ago, Hawk197 said:

I mean, you can get easier armor stripping from Corrosive Projection and Corrosive damage. Stripping armor is easy enough to do as is. Hurting utility or buffing abilities like Larva or Roar just makes the overall experience and customization worse.

I agree that hurting these abilities makes the system as a whole worse. 

Just thought I'd point out that seeking doesn't cap armor strip and corrosive does, at 80%. 

This power just became the most useful now after DE changes.

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Here's my idea to make this better; at MR10 you unlock the system but only stage one abilities, at MR15 and MR20 you get  second and third stage abilities respectivly best you have to dump more and more resources for every stage. its the best of both worlds, early players can experiment but only experienced players have the full abilities.

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"It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal." 

So the solution is to make the rest of the abilities compelling choices too, right? 

No, it's to make the currently compelling ability choices not compelling anymore.

Why would i waste my time even touching this new system if none of the abilities are worth using?

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

What is the case? All you are saying is you spent so much time grinding boring crap and other people who did not grind as much as you should not have access to system. Waaaa! How is someone else having access to the system, impacts you?!

I get the ability nerf issue. The MR is nothing more than crybaby complaints. DE should not be following cry babies.

I also don't understand wining about MR8 requirement instead of 15 (I am 28 and I couldn't care less).
It only distracts from THE ISSUE of NERFING good abilities. 

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3 minutes ago, brunoswaag04 said:

Here's my idea to make this better; at MR10 you unlock the system but only stage one abilities, at MR15 and MR20 you get  second and third stage abilities respectivly best you have to dump more and more resources for every stage. its the best of both worlds, early players can experiment but only experienced players have the full abilities.

not a great system but better than nothing. At 8 maybe get Helminth powers and the ability to lvl up but can't subsume until 15

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb FallenDisc:

Stfu man, you got steel path to play against non paper enemies. 

Currently on steel path the only way to go is take scaling warframes or tank with good melee. 

Also, eclipse is not consistent damage buff since you HAVE to be in sunlight

Mesa barely scratches hard mode enemies and shreds normal level enemies because she's designed to do so. Also, why do you always bring up the most most powerful warframes that can do exactly the same with or without buffs. 

Have you thought of warframes that NEED buffing abilities? 

Maybe your builds are at fault,i am not sure but my Loki (WITH no damage buff abilities) and my skana are fairly capable to kill 90% of the steel path mobs (excluding sentients,bosses,eidolons,and so on) normal grineer/infested/corpus are no problem for A STARTER weapon you get in the introductory quest. That's pretty sad to me,also the P  in steel Path stands for PAPER already

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The MR could have been even lower imo since the system gates itself already through mats. Handholding through MR requirements is really not needed for this system. WF has been a fairly hands-off game, no idea why they've decided to go with a more baby-steps-in-a-shielded-environment approach. Let people play and learn at their own pace.

The "nerfs" I'm ok with since I will still use those skills on the frames I planned to use them on, since they are straight up massive buffs for those kits no matter if they are as powerful as the original version or not. I have absolutely no use for lantern on my Titania, so Roar will be a huge boost for her. Just as Larva will still be a good replacement for her one in build dedicated to mass slaughter.

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I like how they Say that Mr 8 is """"""""""ExPeRiEnCeD""""""""""" yet at Mr 8 pretty much all of the good weapons ever are locked (and don't even get me started about rivens) which means they just can't easily farm the bosses to acquire the bp for the frames to subsume like seriously you just can't get a whole lot of damage at Mr 8. And also I mean if Mr 8 is ExPeRiEnCeD than what is Mr 20 like fing god and what about 30 ? Is it liké this multidimentionnal being like wtf ? And finally if once again Mr 8 means ExPeRiEnCeD players than they should be able to ace Steel path am I right. Yet I really can't imagine them killing 100+ ennemies without good rivens or almost mandatory weapons such as Redeemer or kronen or tigris and all of those Mr 12+ weapons. Wtf were they thinking ? I get that mr 8 and under players is most of the players base but still don't make the game easier just to please players that won't even stay in the game very long anyways.

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Just now, CopperBezel said:

There's no version of what you said that makes sense then. We were talking about Ensnare, and you said it should get a buff to make up for not getting its synergy with Whipclaw. Now you're saying that you didn't say it should be buffed in the Helminth system only. If you're saying it should be buffed in general, you're wrong because it's a strong ability in context of Khora's kit, but you're also missing the point, because if the base ability is buffed, the synergies stay, and the Helminth version is identical to Khora's own, then all you've done is make a good ability stronger and it's still stronger on Khora than on others through the Helminth. 

Of course, in reality, you just want everything to be exactly as powerful as you can possibly get, so the fact that you're contradicting your own reasoning doesn't matter to you

Yes i did and thank for catching

Just now, CopperBezel said:

Based on their own testing.

But all they said in their 'testing' that the Majority of people pick the top 6. So the neft it by popularity again

 

Just now, CopperBezel said:

there's nothing in Warframe that has ever presented these abilities as 1:1 convertible parts, and DE clearly has an idea of what kinds of abilities are going to be allowed and how strong they want them to be. It seems designed very deliberately to avoid stacking particular kinds of buffs (very little damage mitigation on the list) and to require some thought to get real benefits out of the system. It's not guaranteed that a random substitution will result in a tougher frame. This is a very deliberate aspect of what the system is intended to do. Offer customization, offer problems to solve, and offer as little of a universal buff to everyone as possible. 

And nobody have problem with the rule of no stacking buff. i would even say many are relieve that it happen.

How thing should be balance and neft

should be after the update to see how everything interact. 

Just now, CopperBezel said:

Obviously. But DE did not set out in this batch of work to buff every single base frame in the game or rework all of the low performers. That's not what they're doing right now. 

They did improve some of the abilities that will be transferrable in the Helminth, like Well of Life, which had a minimal impact on Trinity's kit but makes the ability useful enough to be a reasonable option in the Helminth. Not every ability was going to be addressed in the same way. Some, like Ensnare and Fire Blast, are good base abilities that are weaker on another frame by default. Some abilities are trash because the frame in question didn't have anything much to offer - Loki's invisibility was obviously off the table, and all of his other abilities are trash. This update is not a Loki rework, so that can't be addressed right now.

Well we all know since the release the list that some ability will be garbage .

So why neft the best one, if the top 6 is neft than it would change nothing since they are still good. what is the point of the neft other than popularity

If larva become garbage then the new top will be ensnare then it be neft too since it is now the top. Nefting Roar or eclipe won't make Radial blind top tier, 

And since we don't know how bad the neft is it could be garbage at launch or change nothing. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Arevulis said:

"It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal." 

So the solution is to make the rest of the abilities compelling choices too, right? 

No, it's to make the currently compelling ability choices not compelling anymore.

Why would i waste my time even touching this new system if none of the abilities are worth using?

You're not allowed to logic DE like that. Shame on you.

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