The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[ChameleonDude]

Like others have said: lowering the requirement defeats the purpose of introducing a system to the game for veterans. I have friends who play for a couple of days a year who meet that requirement - the mastery could be farmed in an afternoon.

As for nerfing some abilities... yeah, some of those seemed like strange choices to begin with. As much as I love sticking to the theme of a frame or playing what's fun, having an AoE raw damage buff or extra energy is too strong to turn down - especially when there are so many abilities that I'd just never use, which I can now swap out. However, even in Roar is a quarter of its original strength, it's still infinitely more valuable to me than fireball. I'm still going to take it. Again, just like others have said, we need a general balance pass on these practically useless abilities to actually make them more tempting - so that swapping them out for a damage buff or an energy orb isn't the most obvious choice. The original concept of focus being tied to the frame itself and acting as a trait tree - unlocking buffs, augments and new powers - still seems like it was the best route for this; instead of having a pile of augments not worth their mod slots, focus schools impacting the frames themselves instead of the operators they were designed for, and now a zombified Audrey making us farm every frame twice (or play Pokemon Snap) to shove abilities where they don't belong.

I'm still anticipating the update and can't wait to play it, but I can see this system leading to a lot of extra work for both the devs and the players as time goes on. More farming, something extra to balance and making it harder to design cohesive kits for new frames.

[(PSN)thegarada]

28 minutes ago, kalad2 said:

as a Valkyr main, I approve of most of these nerfs, assuming they're not too intensive(have them perform at, say, 3/4s the capacity of the original frame)

As Valkyr main, these nerfs do not really impact her. Very rarely you are lacking in damage, as melee solo frame. So roar and eclipse does not matter much (and they probably do not stack with warcry). Defy could have been useful. However, the highest survivability skill for Valkyr is elemental ward. Chroma is the first frame I will subsume. It might however be empower, depending on how much ability str it can add to warcry. Every 100% ability str = 350 armor and 50% atk speed from warcry. It is unlikely to overtake elemental ward for survivability, but it looks like it will be the skill for melee damage.

[Aralicia]

il y a 10 minutes, Arniox a dit :

That's 69 pages in 22 hours.

The message in page 88 is actually the clarification of the message in page 81. We are getting very close of getting as many message in about a day as was previously posted in a week. That's a lot of engagement, at least ! 😌

[ChaoticEdge]

14 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Ask yourself this...

They've tuned these abilities down before they even got released...Just exactly how OP did they have to be in builds to get nerfed now?

By your comments, Would you rather yeet some frames, slot the ability, lose the power, and complain this time next month?

Seems like DE is doing the smartest thing possible to keep from having that this time around.

That said, I still think it's going to happen eventually regardless. 

now ask yourself this, how bad they nerf it.  If we read diminished of meaning of that word and the meaning for it which this is all from the dictionary.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/diminished?s=t

• reduced or lessened; made smaller
• music denoting any minor or perfect interval reduced by a semitone
• music denoting a triad consisting of the root plus a minor third and a diminished fifth
• music (postpositive) (esp in jazz or pop music) denoting a diminished seventh chord having as its root the note specifiedB diminished

more likely it is the 1st one for the question is "HOW SMALL" for it could be stupided enough to be just 5% of roar for is it that deserving that heavy of nerf then it is a yeet roar, no one want a 20% of that roar at all at least it is the amount probably worth using if it is actually 35% because I know rhinos has a mod let them re-roar their abilities.

I thought about it alot for I was hoping they nerf it right amount and not chunky that would be worthless even use a buff if you have super strength warframe for it just become another meaningless task to do all that even on Chroma if you use roar, it is better to have a single Rhino prime by himself to do roar instead having another frame that copy that roar is nerf for you can forget it how this is going to be.

We know not all the frame will be perfect but adding such ability as nerf version it just going be thrown out the window.  Right now, someone voicing in a talk about Heminth's project because if anyone remember "Expert players is getting their hands on it" that was a lie for now it is any players can get their hands on it.

12 hours ago, Cubewano said:

They gave us no actual numbers on these changes so we don't know if these nerfs are heavy at all, that said I welcome them balancing conservatively off the bat so people don't wind up getting over invested in things that may face balance changes afterwards, we've seen a lot of disappoint from that route of balancing and DE doing this is only a good choice. If things come out under tuned we can address it after the fact with far more ease than would come from them coming out over tuned and having to observe them being tampered down. 

That is where I grab that dictionary again and highly the word "Diminished" that I link that word for did have the quota quotes from it and placing it on.  by the terms smaller it means or pose to means small then small (yes this is correct grammar, I'll link you that stupid grammar how broken it is in the spoiler).

Spoiler

This is why I hate grammar so much because they are doing it like the dictionary book adding more words like hangry or worst of term the uwu grammar...

 

Sweet Jesus have mercy our soul...the fact our next generation is going make much more worst grammar back then.

as again don't expect it is actually 35%

[Thundervision]

23 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

If MR15 could be used as a loose term to determine one's «experience» (definitely not the progression, though), MR8, however, is just... wow.

Just a visual representation of MR8 with gear alone:

 

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

21 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

Not gonna lie, you guys did everything right in this update. Until now.

The entire idea of this system was to be a deep customizable system made for EXPERIENCED players (AKA Veterans and players that actually play the game) and now it isn't anymore.

Again, you guys just listen to the casuals and new players that only play the game for two weeks and gives the middle finger to veterans in the end.

The MR requirement SHOULD GO UP NOT DOWN. The game have a lack of veteran systems that makes new players have a reason to grind and level up. The Helminth System would be a incredible start.

I'm still hyped for the system but this change is horrible. Revert it.

No sir this has always been DE since plains hype the release then underwhelming 

[ADDgamer45]

12 minutes ago, ADDgamer45 said:

The larva, defy, and dispenser nerfs are so nonsense. larva just groups, dispenser just gives stuff we already have in our gear, and null star exists so why would you use defy? Trying to bring good abilities like roar, eclipse (I have 0 clue why we didn't get sleight of hand), and warcry down to the level of bad abilities is literally making the game worse. It is watching the game we love take BLATANTLY OBVIOUS steps backward that is pissing everyone off.

We are about to hit mastery rank 30, which is going to open up a completely new form of endgame and they are squandering the mr 12 ranks and up with lack of content. worrying about were their endgame players currently are isn't the answer. mr15 was perfect because it PULLS mr12 up to that point. liches should be mr 12 locked and this should be mr 15. Make incentives stop giving away progress.

MR rank 30 WILL be possible in the next update. What is DE going to do when leveling weapons is only to forma? They are creating content 20 levels behind their own endgame.

[9Drade]

11 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I also don't understand wining about MR8 requirement instead of 15 (I am 28 and I couldn't care less).
It only distracts from THE ISSUE of NERFING good abilities. 

Because "new player experience" is something they already suck at. There will be endless complaints about too high resource cost or too long waits, etc etc. Ya know, MR8 complaints. So they will then just change the whole thing to suck even more because MR8 players are not experienced players so they will be complaining about and requesting stupid things. The MR lock will determine how the system gets balanced.

Edit: Also, incentive. Give players something to work towards. You can't auto-socket ayatans until MR10 lmao.

[CopperBezel]

1 minute ago, KurtisPrime said:

Well we all know since the release the list that some ability will be garbage .

So why neft the best one, if the top 6 is neft than it would change nothing since they are still good. what is the point of the neft other than popularity

If larva become garbage then the new top will be ensnare then it be neft too since it is now the top. Nefting Roar or eclipe won't make Radial blind top tier, 

And since we don't know how bad the neft is it could be garbage at launch or change nothing. 

Which to my eye makes the outrage at this nerf (which was seemingly itself triggered by other outrage going the other way) completely misplaced. Roar could be +40% or it could be +20%. It could also be +20% on day one and be bumped to +40% a week later. All we know is the general principle that some abilities appear to be outperforming others to the point of making choices irrelevant, and so they're going to be in the system in weaker forms than we're used to. How useful they are in practice, we cannot know until we get to use them. 

Again, I'm not worried about the bottom 6 abilities or the top 6 abilities. What I think DE is shooting for is to give people some reason to use the middle 31. That's optimistic, obviously, but these changes are definitely going to shift the scales for some abilities. How much? Until we have numbers, we don't know!

And as for Radial Blind, I'm planning to use it on my Wukong in place of his exalted and finally have a full kit for my melee monster monkey. 

[MustBeAStandUser]

this could have been so great....

[(PSN)thegarada]

4 minutes ago, ADDgamer45 said:

MR rank 30 WILL be possible in the next update. What is DE going to do when leveling weapons is only to forma? They are creating content 20 levels behind their own endgame.

MR does not equal anything. It has no indication of player power. What rivens you have and for what weapons is what determines player power + Focus system. And focus system here is losely since you can very early and easily get all you want from it.. If I am MR 30 tomorrow I gain zero additional power. Only benefit is you can grind syndicate experience faster. If you give me a choice between 1 million additional focus and MR 30, I will go with 1 million focus. 

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

12 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I also don't understand wining about MR8 requirement instead of 15 (I am 28 and I couldn't care less).
It only distracts from THE ISSUE of NERFING good abilities. 

The reason is in your comment you are 28 and don't care 😂😂. MR has meant nothing for too long this continues the thrend

[(NSW)MoonlightSerenade]

To be honest the nerfs are not what surprises me (expecting more) in this update. Its the lowering of the MR that surprises me because at MR8 the resources needed are alot and well the new player experience is really lacking (guess that would be right way to phrase it) idk I just dont feel that lowering the MR is a good idea.

[(PSN)kfrancis902]

Just now, (PS4)thegarada said:

MR does not equal anything. It has no indication of player power. What rivens you have and for what weapons is what determines player power + Focus system. And focus system here is losely since you can very early and easily get all you want from it.. If I am MR 30 tomorrow I gain zero additional power. Only benefit is you can grind MR faster. If you give me a choice between 1 million additional focus and MR 30, I will go with 1 million focus. 

MR not meaning anything is the problem lol.

[IRVoidGuru]

13 minutes ago, brunoswaag04 said:

Yah, i like that idea but why "not a great system but better than nothing"

 

Its not great that we are getting a system " for very experienced warframe players" being given at mr 8

[Hawk197]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

I agree that hurting these abilities makes the system as a whole worse. 

Just thought I'd point out that seeking doesn't cap armor strip and corrosive does, at 80%. 

This power just became the most useful now after DE changes.

Sure, but most times you don't need to strip 100%. You're still dealing damage to the enemy, so unless you want to either use Seeking+Transient, or Seeking+Intensify+Power Drift to remove the armor all at once with a single cast, you can normally kill the target with a Corrosive gun before you need to remove every last bit of armor. Plus there's the issue of using the augment. If you're using an augment already, like Dread Ward, you're build is going to get to jammed with bad mods. Even if you're not using an augment already, how about for frames that favor range or duration over strength? If my build uses Overextended, I now have to use something like Blind Rage+Power Drift. And if I just use Stretch+Auger Reach, sure, maybe it could work since I would only need Transient. Now I need to offset that with Primed Continuity, Auger Message and maybe even Constitution. Just taking that build right there, Seeking+Stretch+Auger Reach+Transient+Primed Continuity+Auger Message. That's 6 of your 8 slots alotted, just to make a somewhat decent build that's a "Jack of all trades, Master of none". You just minmaxed for a build that isn't minmaxed.

 

Let's not forget that the frames you'd even want Seeking on are frames that can't deal damage. You wouldn't really use it on, say, Mesa, since Peacemakers can delete basically every enemy in the game in under 10 seconds.

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, AANGDETO said:

Totally fair point. I would gladly use some "real and better" numbers, but I have the feeling we will never have any (there are sensible informations I guess).

Still, I think my point is valid, many players quit early, and the facts that every extensions are always some grind-fests (and the new one will not be an exception), I still don't understand DE' strategy toward new players. Sure, it is MR8, but no MR8 in the entire game will be able to have a positive experience with it (lack of resource, syndicates' points, etc), so yeah, another way to scare new players, and now it won't even make the veterans happy.

Please, don't misunderstand my point.  I am not arguing that you are wrong, and have in fact used a variant of the same argument in the past.  It's depressing that so little information is shared with the community, and thus we have to rely on things like this to have any objective evidence.

 

What I am trying to say is that DE is touting a lot of users.  It's a fair statement, even if we cannot independently confirm and active user versus a sock account or otherwise inactive registered user.  As such, the 2% of a 1 million user base is actually 20,000 people.  If the average player count is more accurate, we have about 60-80k players that are regularly active.  This means that in play you'd see 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 players with the stuff (25-33%), but only have a 2% overall completion.

This is where I think a lot of perception skews the facts.  People think everything is fine, because they see things happening.  They don't square the math, and figure out that this means that our player base is functionally less than 10% of the registered users.  That's an alarming truth, but has to be reasonable given that it's almost a decade old and a free to download game.

 

My shorter point is that there are better arguments against the MR 8 lock.  It doesn't take DE any time to graph player activity versus MR, discover that most active players are probably above MR 8, and offer it as a token lock-out.  As you said (and I agreed), MR 8 is too early to be given the keys to completely change how frames work.  It isn't about wanting to lock content for newer players, but about forcing them to understand the systems before they break them.

[ADDgamer45]

1 minute ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

MR not meaning anything is the problem lol.

THIS RIGHT HERE. DE is cramming all their content into the first 10mr, that is the exact reason it doesn't say anything about player power.

[cha0sWyrM]

de: hey guys ...were gonna give you a cool new system where you can swap out warframe abilities!

everyone: YAY!!! awesome!!! super!!!! that sounds great!!!! thank you so much!!!!

de: hold on....well were only going to give you SOME abilities...and you dont get to choose which ones...and they are all the kinda not great ones already.

everyone: oh...well, ok then, still...seems pretty cool. im sure we can make use of that....still thanks?

de: oh... one more thing.....were only going to give you some of the kinda not great abilities...AND were making those abilities not really work right.

everyone:

 

[brunoswaag04]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Its not great that we are getting a system " for very experienced warframe players" being given at mr 8

oh i thought you were talking about what i said

[thesyndrome]

I have put a lot less time into warframe lately because there's not much left for me to do, but the helminth system looked so interesting that I was getting ready to jump back in, but after reading those changes, I'm seriously reconsidering this

you saw that people were saying that there were overwhelmingly good choices because there's a good chunk of nearly useless abilities in there, so your reaction wasn't to make the other choices more appealing by buffing "bad" abilities, but to instead nerf the good ones so they are just as S#&$; so here's the question: why would I *EVER* grind for the helminth if every single choice is S#&$?

nerfing things is the laziest balance option, because you aren't making the bad stuff good, you are just making the good stuff as bad as everything else until eventually EVERYTHING is bad and there's no reason to even play the game anymore. You need to look at something that is underperforming and try and improve it to make it competitive, not just make everything else worse; you should know this by now, you saw the EXTREME negative reaction to Scott's proposed "get rid of blink on itzal" (which was another blanket-fix to make bad archwings more appealing) thing a while ago and you then corrected this by BUFFING the other archwings to also have blink, and this was the correct choice and the community was much happier for it

please don't start making old mistakes again

[omnipoticus]

DE please, it is not a good idea to decrease the mr requirement for this to 8 from 15? when I was mr 8 I had 5 frames total. I was far from understanding what abilities synergize with what, how to build ability strength, dur, range, etc. and I had no idea what half of the warframes in the game did. I understand that you guys are under a lot of pressure, as the new players also want access to this system and there are a lot of complaints going around the community from both sides. It must be very difficult making a decision where no matter what you do, you will face backlash. However, a lot of appeal that this system has is that it is endgame, and it is incredibly complicated to understand. The dreaded term "veteran" could be used to describe this content, but not only will this incentivize players to build more mastery ranks and rank up all of the warframes available for this system, it would also give the seasoned playerbase, much of which plays this game on and off because they love this game, a reason to hop back in, and quite frankly increase the player count of the game. Lowering the mastery rank requirement would make players such as myself when I was mastery rank 8 get even more confused, and might encourage rash decision making to subsume warframes that they might like, as even at mastery rank 8 It wouldnt be a stretch to say that nobody would have all of the warframes to fully explore and understand their synergies. 

Also, whats with nerfing the abiltiies even before release? nerfing warcry, roar, and eclipse isnt going to stop people from picking them, and the solution to this should not to be to nerf these abilities to the underworld, but instead to buff the bad abilities, so that you can have fun and choose among all of the competent abilities. For example, instead of nerfing roar or warcry to the point where they give a negligible bonus, buff other offensive abilities as well such as tempest barrage, ensnare, or pull, as I see no reason I would pick those abilities over something like warcry or rest & rage. Again, I understand your dilemma with having to try to appeal to as many people as possible, but instead of  nerfing good abilities to make all abilities available on the same level of bad, buff the bad ones to make them all equal on the same level of good. Thanks for listening to my proposal, and I sincerely hope you reverse the decision. 

[FaridRLz]

As a commentary for the last update in this workshop, i must say lowering the MR needed just to please your player base who's bothered about it is NOT the right move, you designed this as a "experimental phase for experimented players" or at least that's what it seems like, i should remain for higher MR people, 15 was a sweet spot in my opinion.

Also you are nerfing the only abilities that would actually be used, the overall abilities you state that would be extractable are straight up USELESS some are nich that can actually be used and useful in certain situations that actually might make them strong outside the original warframe. But nerfing the only ones that could have an actual use seems wrong in many ways. The helminth system should have never existed in first place, and now when you realised it would be too much you decide to nerf it before launching it? If you get too crazy on nerfing those abilities then better scrap everything and rethink in something that could actually be "balanced" for you. Messing around with the community like that does not seems right.

[Lumireaver]

18 hours ago, wargthewarg said:

How do you imagine that will improve Decoy enough to make people use it?

I mean I'm not a designer, but they could tweak aggro range, intensity, or decoy HP or something. If it remains consistently "underused" it'll just stay stronger than most other abilities until/unless an augment comes around to make it a better choice. 

[ChossetteDivine]

I guess it's much more easier to nerf 6 abilities rather than "buffing" ( i say buff but it mostly is just making these usable) the vast majority of abilities that aren't used even on their own frames.

Older frames and their abilities haven't received love for a loooong time, and now and instead of giving attention to the bad ones, the good ones are receiving nerfs. Roar is overrated, Dispensary isn't that strong because you don't have access to Protea's passiv and it is a stationnary thing which range of effect is vacuum's range, Larva needs mods for a truly useful range thus restricting the mod choice, Eclispe actually is crap because of the way it works with light, Warcry is nerfed for the thing it need the least nerf, and finally Defy that leaves me perplexe and I cannot react to.

I can assure that, if the abilites on the list don't change, and aren't buffed in some way, I still will most likely never use Loki's, Revenant's, Octavia's, Titania's, Frost's, Nyx's, Nova's, Nekros' and much other frame's abilites, I still prefer a nerfed ability over Gara's spectrorage.

 

I do understand that balancing things considering the scale of this game, is very tricky. I also understand that "key" abilities can't be given all willi nilly, but we just got even less options, we're not getting anything else in return of those good choice being taken from our perspectives. 

 

And something really frustrating here, is that some really, really strong abilities didn't get nerfed at all, and by fear that they might be, I won't nominate them, because obviously, we can't talk about the good things, they get thrown into a hellpit of nerfs, so a lot of the people who love and care about the game are left with mostly the existing, and to come, bad things to talk about; feeding rants and pointless arguments. We need to have strong choice to compete with existing strong choice, not a lot of weak choices to be left aside from the meta forced upon us. This update and this system is the way to add to the meta, instead of what could currently happen : digging  the trench between the good/best abilities and the bad/unused-unusable abilities.

 

I can't say I'm excited about the Helminth project anymore, because I was hoping to see the less used powers getting some deserved attention to enrich and diversify the game, but we apparently will not be getting that.

I guess we still get a new syndicate grind and the new player experience. can't complain, can I?