The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Calapsar]

i want Garuda's 3 (badly)👈

[Mauloch]

Maybe i have used the wrong words to get my points across about the MR thing, what i wanted to say was that if i was a new player that would have been an amazing goal for when i get better because the current higher MR gated things such as Syndcate standing and void traces are not goals, but mere annoyances that become less annoying with time. People can now try a bit of everything from the beginning and that makes some of them them think they have seen it all and unfortunately they just leave.

I was amazed at all the things you can do early on when i first started the game and that was like 2 months before POE but it also confused me a bit, so i can only imagine how newer ppl feel nowadays.

[Drakentao]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the changes to the abilities.  I would rather wait and see how they work, they will still be good and probably still be better with the other choices.  I am not going to go with some kneejerk reaction and cry doom and gloom.  I appreciate the feedback thread and I appreciate that they listened when many MANY people said those abilities would be overpowered and/or make some Warframes obsolete.  I am kind of concerned that they were even chosen in the first place.

There is a very serious power creep problem in Warframe, and it usually goes like this:

• Here is this shiny new thing, its super good and powerful.
• Cool I am going to invest a lot in it!  I am super excited.
• Oh wait, that thing is super powerful and now its all anyone uses.  We will have to adjust it.
• DOOOOMM DOOOM, Warframe is over, DE is terrible, etc. etc.

So this has been going on for some time, and to be sure most games go through this stuff.  Companies have to make things appealing so that players want to them and will invest there time (and money) into them.   However, its a fine balance, be cause real content (with stories and new enemies and levels etc) takes time and you do not want to make the new shiny reward make the real content trivial.  This happens a lot in Warframe.  

If everyone was a game developer and understood all the nuisances of game design (I am talking about the players here), then everyone should be fine with rebalancing if it makes the game better as a whole and makes the content more fun and last longer.  However, players are not developers and no one likes to see their new toys nerfed.  Its really hard to keep perspective. I am sure what I am saying is nothing new and most people realize this (although it seems to happen in just about every game).  So here is what I am suggesting:

DE:

• Give small power creep items only with cool mechanics. 
• Take notes on what kind of items you have had to nerf in the past, and make a checklist.
• If an item is going to suddenly become the meta, examine why that is and try to alter it slightly to alleviate that.  (change the range, number of uses, etc)
• Start small and work up, the way rivens work now is great and a good step forward.  Do not make it super power at the get go...

Players:

• Content is not easy to create, and anything that makes the content too easy should not have a place in the game.  You should be wary of any ability that trivializes or creates an unbalance in the game and call it out right away.  Because most likely it will get nerfed, that is not a negative thing.  Its good game design, continually adding abilities that trivialize or limit viable choice is not sustainable.   Nerfing stuff is not the primary reason people leave.  Boredom from having to repeat the new content, or breezing through the content to fast IS a very real reason for not just Warframe but all games of this nature.
• Expanding the audience and keeping new players almost always will be a better way to earn money for the company then keeping old players.  There is a natural attrition existing players who run out of content or find new games.  New players virtually have the whole game, while old players have been there and done that.  Its a balance but they need to go where the money is, so whatever the numbers say..  Maybe spend more money?  Who knows, just pointing it out.

I for one am looking forward to the system, even if it takes some tweaking over time.  I think we can probably meet in the middle and move the MR to 10 unless that is a hard mandate or something which I would understand.

[Sintag]

Just now, krazox said:

Pls Sintag, no more syndicate gating, rank 3 is already ominous.

Friendly reminder you needed to hit R3 with SU/Ostrons/Quills/Quills But With Comic Character to gild anything.

Plus, if you're MR15, getting to Rank 4 shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Or, okay, let's make the entire thing Rank 3, but lock Subsuming behind an MR15 lock and make the basic Helminth Abilities MR8.  Meaning new players can feed Helminth and get it ranked en route to 15 where they can begin cannibalizing Warframes.

[Drakentao]

3 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Okay, two parts to that.

Buffing some of those abilities to make them more compelling - they did buff a couple of base abilities, most notably Well of Life. What was said on stream sounded like buffing the versions of abilities granted through the Helminth, not base abilities, but that entirely doesn't work; either you could then apply that newly buffed ability to the base frame, which would be silly and also result in the same thing as buffing the base ability, or you'd be disallowed from doing so, which means the frame in question would be the only frame with a weak version of their own ability. Extra grind, thematic contradiction, whatever the result, making the Helminth buff an ability from its base version would be a terrible idea. So if we want a good ability from Loki or Zephyr for the Helminth, we're just going to have to wait for their respective frame reworks when and if they come. There's a limit to how much DE can do at once.   

What they did instead was leave a lot of abilities in trash tier, because they can't possibly rework all of those frames for this update, while leaving a wide middle ground of reasonably useful abilities that ranges from Fire Walker level to Nourish Strike level, and a few at the top. And now they've decided that those few at the top are going to be pushed down to that level of, one assumes, Ensnare, Molt, Breach Surge, etc. - good but not frame-defining abilities.

As for picking something else instead, Warcry is definitely the only thing you'd want from Valkyr, even in a reduced state, and it's the only melee speed buff on the list, so it adds variety. Roar surprised me with its inclusion, and it's similar enough to Nourish Strike that I'd personally rather have Charge, but it's not an unreasonable choice and it's not unreasonable to say that it needed to come in a reduced form to match the power curve DE intends for the Helminth. In general, with each of those choices, and any chosen ability for the Helminth, I'd say they chose what they did because they felt that ability in that form was going to contribute the most to an interesting Helminth system.

The problem with buffing most of the abilities is that would take more time and testing, and they need to get this out sooner rather then later.  Postponing releases to rework a lot of items does not work in the long run, the dev ball needs to keep rolling.   Some of them certainly should be buffed eventually, but I would rather like have the new war quest first.

[CopperBezel]

Precisely.

18 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

But why give us these 'OP' ability to begin. If they are willing to give good ability than give them out, if they don't like fun then just give crap ability only. People were hype and they kill it.

Again, I think it's pretty simple. Someone felt these particular abilities would be the best choices from those frames, but they didn't fit the intended power curve, so they got limited a bit, however much that turns out to be. I can't tell you why they chose a limited Roar over a Charge because I'd rather have Charge than Roar myself. I can tell you why they didn't include a full Roar, because they've already explained that. 

[Almagnus1]

If you're going to nerf a skill in a system that's not even live, you should probably choose a different skill to contribute from that warframe.

For example, DO NOT GIVE US RHINO'S ROAR!  It's as signature to Rhino as Ironskin and Stomp.  Give out Charge instead.

[WingZeroPrime33]

Thank you for lowing the MR requirement!  I guess I need to start building spare Warframes now.

[MustBeAStandUser]

I hope nerfed abilities at least have a lower energy cost

[RaVant0]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

The reduction in magnitude on certain abilities won't change the fact that they will still be the "overwhelming choice." The reason why they will be the top picks is because of their fundamental mechanic (aka useful synergies that can be used with a lot of frames). This change won't fix anything or change the distribution of abilities picked, only reduce potential effectiveness/usefulness of this new system (angering players without even accomplishing their stated objective).  

Specific examples of nerfs: The reason why Roar/Eclipse will still be the over whelming choice is that it multiplies all your damage (and significantly reduces the damage taken in case of eclipse). All Warframes would benefit from a true damage multiplier and/or damage taken reduction. Protea's dispenser has no competition for universal supplies so reducing it's number won't change anything because if a player wants supplies it is the only option. 

Specific examples of under performing skills: Now let us look at decoy, what Warframe would benefit from a squishy distraction clone that is weaker than a specter (a gear option is superior to this ability). Additionally what role is this ability supposed to even fill? Increase in survivability by creating a distraction? If that is the case better Nerf mind control because it does the same thing and it scales with the content while doing damage. Though the elephant in the room is that neither of these abilities would be used because if a player wants to increase survivability it is more effective to buff the warframe itself or de-buff all the hostiles. 

DE should not take this half measure of reducing the magnitude of certain abilities because it won't change the distribution of abilities used. The only way this issue could be addressed is fundamentally changing the mechanics of the abilities (and it really should be changes to the abilities that have no determinable niche/use or are just out competed by gear wheel options). I am all for the objective of giving players more viable choices, but reducing magnitudes of useful abilities does not do this instead it only has the potential of reducing viable choices. 

[IGN_Maverick]

2 minutes ago, Muzure said:

I hope nerfed abilities at least have a lower energy cost

That would be consistent with

 

1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

Here are some wbility buffs that will bow peole's minds.

 

Mag's pull has a 25%chance to have enemies give energy orbs if killed by pull. What if instead that enemy got marked by pull and then had that 25% chance to poop energy? 

Reave. Since it can't combo wombo with revenant allow it to go through lasers without tripping them like cloud Walker.

Mesa? Uncapped damage. Suddenly compelling to store up by killing shmucko whoever and have Big Bullet in reserve.

Mirage? Number go down, but in exchange dark energy color gives yu darkness buff, light energy color gives bight buff.

Ember and gauss. Make those abilities behave as if they were at full meter.

Nyx. That enemy has the same aggro draw as a defense target.

Loki. His decoy has the same aggro draw a defense twrget has, 10x loki's health, and on death explodes in a (base 10 meter) radius dealing impact and radiation procs to anyone still standing. Casting while active detonates the decoy.

Zephyr. The suck part of her airburst is made stronger for immediate suction of enemies.

Frost. Icewave leaves zones frames can get a parkiur boost from similar to titania's passive. Fold in the augment's behavior so it gives lingering cold effect. New augment that gives +100 to icewave's effect duration and gives affected enemies a debuff where they can spread cold procs to surrounding enemies for icewave's duration. Augment name 'ice 9'

 

There you go. Eleven buffs to otherwise worthless abilities. Want me to do more?

I bet it took you like 2 years to think about those, right? Let alone testing them, it would take like 10 years more or less. A vaccine for COVID would be easier to make. 

[Sintag]

1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

There you go. Eleven buffs to otherwise worthless abilities. Want me to do more?

I'm gonna argue a little?  I feel like Loki's Decoy explosion should blind enemies and inflict Rad procs.

The rest, I absolutely agree with.

[9Drade]

6 minutes ago, Drakentao said:

The problem with buffing most of the abilities is that would take more time and testing, and they need to get this out sooner rather then later.  Postponing releases to rework a lot of items does not work in the long run, the dev ball needs to keep rolling.   Some of them certainly should be buffed eventually, but I would rather like have the new war quest first.

As I have said at least a dozen times now: Then why did they choose roar? They're acting surprised that this ability was "overwhelmingly chosen" and that is a complete joke. Do they, I dunno, play this game? Anyone with a brain could see that miles away. It seems idiotic to give that ability up. Nerfing it will not reduce how frequently it is chosen -- which is their stated goal. The only way to actually make that happen is to remove the offending abilities or buff everything else. Which of those is easier?

[Zoero]

DE should watch Brozime's video on this.

[KurtisPrime]

38 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Precisely.

Again, I think it's pretty simple. Someone felt these particular abilities would be the best choices from those frames, but they didn't fit the intended power curve, so they got limited a bit, however much that turns out to be. I can't tell you why they chose a limited Roar over a Charge because I'd rather have Charge than Roar myself. I can tell you why they didn't include a full Roar, because they've already explained that. 

Brozime is better at explaining it than me, go watch their video.

 

[GreyZetsu]

Instead of watering down the powers, how about a mastery based tier system?

Being someone whos been trying to push myself solo in The steel path its so disappointing to hear that they r already nerfing the key warframe abilities i was looking at. Its so annoying when people who never challenge themselves whine n complain about stuff being overpowered...these are the shrubs that DE is catering to. Also by making it mr8 its almost guaranteed to be watered down to the point of uselessness. I went from super hyped to ugh whatever...

 

[IGN_Maverick]

1 minute ago, 9Drade said:

They're acting surprised that this ability was "overwhelmingly chosen" and that is a complete joke.

Let's keep in mind the update has YET to be released. 
This approach however is "at convenience". I mean, I don't see them buffing or nerfing frames based on popularity. They just do it with Rivens and it's already hideous, now they wanna apply this " equally distributed choice " to a new ( and potentially cool ) system.

[Nexus_Forge]

I am very disappointed with the choice to nerf some of the more desirable subsume choices in doing so you have caused this entire system to be less worth while.

Why would I farm tens of thousands of materials to get a borderline side trade of an ability you want something that is game changing something that would alter how you play your Frame.

I won't be interacting with the Helminth system not worth the effort.

[Kokokojo]

26 minutes ago, IGN_Maverick said:

Let's keep in mind the update has YET to be released. 
This approach however is "at convenience". I mean, I don't see them buffing or nerfing frames based on popularity. They just do it with Rivens and it's already hideous, now they wanna apply this " equally distributed choice " to a new ( and potentially cool ) system.

I guess you were not in the days of Draco eh? (props to them for reverting it right after the imminent riot)
Or Ember befor rework.
Valkyr's 4 is in this nefed state literally because popularity

They do, yes, nerf Warframes because popularity.

[omnipoticus]

DE please, it is not a good idea to decrease the mr requirement for this to 8 from 15.

     When I was mr 8 I had 5 frames total. I was far from understanding what abilities synergize with what, how to build ability strength, dur, range, etc. and I had no idea what half of the warframes in the game did. I understand that you guys are under a lot of pressure, as the new players also want access to this system and there are a lot of complaints going around the community from both sides. It must be very difficult making a decision where no matter what you do, you will face backlash. However, a lot of appeal that this system has is that it is endgame, and it is incredibly complicated to understand. The dreaded term "veteran" could be used to describe this content, but not only will this incentivize players to build more mastery ranks and rank up all of the warframes available for this system, it would also give the seasoned playerbase, much of which plays this game on and off because they love this game, a reason to hop back in, and quite frankly increase the player count of the game. Lowering the mastery rank requirement would make players such as myself when I was mastery rank 8 get even more confused, and might encourage rash decision making to subsume warframes that they might like, as even at mastery rank 8 It wouldnt be a stretch to say that nobody would have all of the warframes to fully explore and understand their synergies. 

           Also, whats with nerfing the abiltiies even before release? nerfing warcry, roar, and eclipse isnt going to stop people from picking them, and the solution to this should not to be to nerf these abilities to the underworld, but instead to buff the bad abilities, so that you can have fun and choose among all of the competent abilities. For example, instead of nerfing roar or warcry to the point where they give a negligible bonus, buff other offensive abilities as well such as tempest barrage, ensnare, or pull, as I see no reason I would pick those abilities over something like warcry or rest & rage. Again, I understand your dilemma with having to try to appeal to as many people as possible, but instead of  nerfing good abilities to make all abilities available on the same level of bad, buff the bad ones to make them all equal on the same level of good. Thanks for listening to my proposal, and I sincerely hope you reverse the decision. 

[IGN_Maverick]

2 minutes ago, GreyZetsu said:

Its so annoying when people who never challenge themselves whine n complain about stuff being overpowered

These are the same people who play with herds of premades parties with perfect sinergies and stay like 1 hour at most in a mission calling it endurance run. Solo play is being S#&$ on. At this point why the hell even allowing the possibility to go solo?

People just don't understand that most solo players do it for reasons other than " I wanna play alone ": just think about the vast majority of people with bad ping. Not everyone can have a godlike internet connection and 3 premades to do 6x3 eidolons hunts with, acting like pro players.

[MokutoBunshi]

Hello, back again to talk about the "update". #1 Do not make these abilities weirder, either buff the others or swap em out. #2 The mastery rank thing is rediculous when compared to what you said about it not being intended for new players. The proof is, you can even auto install untill MR 10.

Even considering cost reductions to warframes, this nerf makes little sense. Please, think of a different solution and listen to the feedback all of your creators (except that one idiot) ones like brozime who made a public list of permutations.

[IGN_Maverick]

23 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

They do, yes, nerf Warframes because popularity.

So it is worse than I expected xD. Thank you, I really needed that. I have no hopes now.

[Hixlysss]

23 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

Just once I wish you guys would make a system with a high MR requirement, and stick to it. Now you're going to have all kinds of people complaining that "It costs too much." or what ever else they can think of. You need to introduce things to make getting more MR a goal. As it stands you can get to MR 16 and just...stop, you have access to everything, every riven and every weapon, every gameplay system/mechanic. This is why I advocated that the Helminth MR would be 20, instead of 15. But no, instead you dropped it to 8.

[Hawk197]

15 minutes ago, Drakentao said:

The problem with buffing most of the abilities is that would take more time and testing, and they need to get this out sooner rather then later.  Postponing releases to rework a lot of items does not work in the long run, the dev ball needs to keep rolling.   Some of them certainly should be buffed eventually, but I would rather like have the new war quest first.

You do know DE released a Test Server a few months ago, right? It was open to about 500 players. So... Why not, you know, open another Test Server, give out another 500 or so keys, and get real feedback? Or, you know, use the Partners Program, since many of those people have been around for a few years and know a thing or two? Seriously, not that hard. Original post was 8 days ago. We could've had 8 days to test things, give feedback, then DE would have 4 days to implement suggestions, followed by any other postrelease changes. People feared that the Test Servers would be ignored as time went on. This lack of oversight confirms those fears. DE literally has access to thousands of testers, some new, some veteran, some casual, some hardcore, some that goof off, some that know the ins and outs of every single little mechanic of the game.