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The abilities that got nerfed are also the ones that are just straight forward strong. There are tons of abilities on that list that nobody knows how they work or forget about that are also extremely strong like thermal sunder and spellbind.

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Just now, CopperBezel said:

Which to my eye makes the outrage at this nerf (which was seemingly itself triggered by other outrage going the other way) completely misplaced. Roar could be +40% or it could be +20%. It could also be +20% on day one and be bumped to +40% a week later. All we know is the general principle that some abilities appear to be outperforming others to the point of making choices irrelevant, and so they're going to be in the system in weaker forms than we're used to. How useful they are in practice, we cannot know until we get to use them. 

 

But why give us these 'OP' ability to begin. If they are willing to give good ability than give them out, if they don't like fun then just give crap ability only. People were hype and they kill it.

1 minute ago, CopperBezel said:

Again, I'm not worried about the bottom 6 abilities or the top 6 abilities. What I think DE is shooting for is to give people some reason to use the middle 31. That's optimistic, obviously, but these changes are definitely going to shift the scales for some abilities. How much? Until we have numbers, we don't know!

People will try those 31 ability no matter what top or bottom. It new content. But killing the top ability will do nothing but replace the top 6 with a new one. The scale always exist no matter how they neft thing. Sure we don't have number but a neft is still a neft.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, cha0sWyrM said:

de: hey guys ...were gonna give you a cool new system where you can swap out warframe abilities!

everyone: YAY!!! awesome!!! super!!!! that sounds great!!!! thank you so much!!!!

de: hold on....well were only going to give you SOME abilities...and you dont get to choose which ones...and they are all the kinda not great ones already.

everyone: oh...well, ok then, still...seems pretty cool. im sure we can make use of that....still thanks?

de: oh... one more thing.....were only going to give you some of the kinda not great abilities...AND were making those abilities not really work right.

everyone:

Bored Come On GIF

 

This speaks to me.

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Nerfing the abilities wouldn't give more choices. It'll just make the choices before worst. Yes they nerfed Roar and warcry. What? You going to use soul punch because of that? Maybe pull? DE's logic has confused me so much. Like where is the improvement here? How is nerfing the abilities most likely to be picked going to make the other choices anymore viable? How does that give us a reason to use decoy? To use fireblast? Or Ice wave?

Maybe buff the weak ones in order to make them viable? Or give them an extra feature when being extracted. Maybe they won't need an augment? Like the skill can do what it's augment can do by default. Or something like that.

This only, 1 killed the hype, 2 makes the update look more like a grind fest without any worthwhile rewards yet again. I guess we can still use roar but why bother? You'll need to do even more grinding. If you want then I guess by all means. But something like roar needs a decent amount of strength in order to be worth using energy by default. Hope you enjoy your 45% damage multiplier or whatever DE decides it to be. Don't take it the wrong way. I'm still going to replace a large number of skill with roar if there was for some reason I was bothered to. Like I got really, really bored. This argument also applies in skills like eclipse and warcry.

Edited by Ender140
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If DE are reading the comments why don't they just ask? Nerfing isn't the answer so why not express the worry to the community with polls? There is no way they didn't come up with at least 3 solutions.

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22 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

have you ever concidered that new players (and MR8 is something even a 'only' half-ambitous player can get in a week or two) are already overwhelmed by all the contend they have access to? i had dozents of such new players in my clan who gave up on the game just because it was way too much what they could do while all of it looked (or so they thought) was important to do/have asap... sure, the game is meant to played at a pace everyone can choose for oneself, but games like warframe or path of exile that are active for years now accumulated so much contend (and also tend to not explain much of their importance or mechanic ingame), it looks to newbies like they have to climb mt. everest with their hands only in just a few hours... with the MR-system you have such a usefull way of bee-lining the contend in a way the experience of the game grows (ofc, that still won't silly power-leveler - but that's their own fault then). i understand the need of getting new players to the game with shiny new features, but many of those players you will likely lose again after a while when they either give up on the amount of things to do or because they rushed through the contend, never really delving into its depth. giving a player a reason to progress through the arsenal beyond the obvious reasons and thus keeping them longer seems a better ides imo.

and while at it, you should think of making prime versions of frames and weapons only useable after one mastered the normal version... that's just another example where you chose to go the short economically way instead of the longer one that keeps players longer in-game. i see so many players who already have most prime frames and weapons mastered in their profile but little of the normal counterparts... at least now can get them to build them as helminth fodder - but again, i guess it doesn't to be at level 30, right? so again, a wasted opportunity... the normal stuff should be a part of the build-recipe for the prime counterpart - and only useable then if at lvl30 too. sure, that's even more grind, some people would say, but then again, this would be the normal way of things and also the logical one... afterall, who build a house from top downwards?

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DE please listen to your community again. you changed the core game play of the entire game by realizing that the copptering made the game more fun, instead of nerfing it you saw the value of it. being popular usually means well designed and fun. 

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15 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

Why not buff some of those abilities to make them more compelling? Ya know, like they said they were going to on the stream. They simply should not have chosen roar/eclipse/warcry. Nerfing larva cause why would anyone bring Nidus anymore? Defy...already has a cap? Lazy fixes.

Like I said, Buffing powers is too hard.

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DE, big question.  Why not make Helminth's original abilities MR8 and Rank 3 with the Entrati, and make Subsuming MR15 and Rank 4 with the Entrati?

Why not give us the exact numbers for the abilities being nerfed so we can decide whether or not it's worth farming?

Why not, instead of throwing in multiple outliers to this system, go back to rhe drawing board and see why most of these selected abilities are mediocre?

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4 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

Why not buff some of those abilities to make them more compelling? Ya know, like they said they were going to on the stream. They simply should not have chosen roar/eclipse/warcry. Nerfing larva cause why would anyone bring Nidus anymore? Defy...already has a cap? Lazy fixes.

Okay, two parts to that.

Buffing some of those abilities to make them more compelling - they did buff a couple of base abilities, most notably Well of Life. What was said on stream sounded like buffing the versions of abilities granted through the Helminth, not base abilities, but that entirely doesn't work; either you could then apply that newly buffed ability to the base frame, which would be silly and also result in the same thing as buffing the base ability, or you'd be disallowed from doing so, which means the frame in question would be the only frame with a weak version of their own ability. Extra grind, thematic contradiction, whatever the result, making the Helminth buff an ability from its base version would be a terrible idea. So if we want a good ability from Loki or Zephyr for the Helminth, we're just going to have to wait for their respective frame reworks when and if they come. There's a limit to how much DE can do at once.   

What they did instead was leave a lot of abilities in trash tier, because they can't possibly rework all of those frames for this update, while leaving a wide middle ground of reasonably useful abilities that ranges from Fire Walker level to Nourish Strike level, and a few at the top. And now they've decided that those few at the top are going to be pushed down to that level of, one assumes, Ensnare, Molt, Breach Surge, etc. - good but not frame-defining abilities.

As for picking something else instead, Warcry is definitely the only thing you'd want from Valkyr, even in a reduced state, and it's the only melee speed buff on the list, so it adds variety. Roar surprised me with its inclusion, and it's similar enough to Nourish Strike that I'd personally rather have Charge, but it's not an unreasonable choice and it's not unreasonable to say that it needed to come in a reduced form to match the power curve DE intends for the Helminth. In general, with each of those choices, and any chosen ability for the Helminth, I'd say they chose what they did because they felt that ability in that form was going to contribute the most to an interesting Helminth system.

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1 minute ago, Sintag said:

DE, big question.  Why not make Helminth's original abilities MR8 and Rank 3 with the Entrati, and make Subsuming MR15 and Rank 4 with the Entrati?

Why not give us the exact numbers for the abilities being nerfed so we can decide whether or not it's worth farming?

Why not, instead of throwing in multiple outliers to this system, go back to rhe drawing board and see why most of these selected abilities are mediocre?

I wish 

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Maybe i have used the wrong words to get my points across about the MR thing, what i wanted to say was that if i was a new player that would have been an amazing goal for when i get better because the current higher MR gated things such as Syndcate standing and void traces are not goals, but mere annoyances that become less annoying with time. People can now try a bit of everything from the beginning and that makes some of them them think they have seen it all and unfortunately they just leave.

I was amazed at all the things you can do early on when i first started the game and that was like 2 months before POE but it also confused me a bit, so i can only imagine how newer ppl feel nowadays.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with the changes to the abilities.  I would rather wait and see how they work, they will still be good and probably still be better with the other choices.  I am not going to go with some kneejerk reaction and cry doom and gloom.  I appreciate the feedback thread and I appreciate that they listened when many MANY people said those abilities would be overpowered and/or make some Warframes obsolete.  I am kind of concerned that they were even chosen in the first place.

There is a very serious power creep problem in Warframe, and it usually goes like this:

  • Here is this shiny new thing, its super good and powerful.
  • Cool I am going to invest a lot in it!  I am super excited.
  • Oh wait, that thing is super powerful and now its all anyone uses.  We will have to adjust it.
  • DOOOOMM DOOOM, Warframe is over, DE is terrible, etc. etc.

So this has been going on for some time, and to be sure most games go through this stuff.  Companies have to make things appealing so that players want to them and will invest there time (and money) into them.   However, its a fine balance, be cause real content (with stories and new enemies and levels etc) takes time and you do not want to make the new shiny reward make the real content trivial.  This happens a lot in Warframe.  

If everyone was a game developer and understood all the nuisances of game design (I am talking about the players here), then everyone should be fine with rebalancing if it makes the game better as a whole and makes the content more fun and last longer.  However, players are not developers and no one likes to see their new toys nerfed.  Its really hard to keep perspective. I am sure what I am saying is nothing new and most people realize this (although it seems to happen in just about every game).  So here is what I am suggesting:

DE:

  • Give small power creep items only with cool mechanics. 
  • Take notes on what kind of items you have had to nerf in the past, and make a checklist.
  • If an item is going to suddenly become the meta, examine why that is and try to alter it slightly to alleviate that.  (change the range, number of uses, etc)
  • Start small and work up, the way rivens work now is great and a good step forward.  Do not make it super power at the get go...

Players:

  • Content is not easy to create, and anything that makes the content too easy should not have a place in the game.  You should be wary of any ability that trivializes or creates an unbalance in the game and call it out right away.  Because most likely it will get nerfed, that is not a negative thing.  Its good game design, continually adding abilities that trivialize or limit viable choice is not sustainable.   Nerfing stuff is not the primary reason people leave.  Boredom from having to repeat the new content, or breezing through the content to fast IS a very real reason for not just Warframe but all games of this nature.
  • Expanding the audience and keeping new players almost always will be a better way to earn money for the company then keeping old players.  There is a natural attrition existing players who run out of content or find new games.  New players virtually have the whole game, while old players have been there and done that.  Its a balance but they need to go where the money is, so whatever the numbers say..  Maybe spend more money?  Who knows, just pointing it out.

I for one am looking forward to the system, even if it takes some tweaking over time.  I think we can probably meet in the middle and move the MR to 10 unless that is a hard mandate or something which I would understand.

Edited by Drakentao
forgot to mention MR
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Just now, krazox said:

Pls Sintag, no more syndicate gating, rank 3 is already ominous.

Friendly reminder you needed to hit R3 with SU/Ostrons/Quills/Quills But With Comic Character to gild anything.

Plus, if you're MR15, getting to Rank 4 shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Or, okay, let's make the entire thing Rank 3, but lock Subsuming behind an MR15 lock and make the basic Helminth Abilities MR8.  Meaning new players can feed Helminth and get it ranked en route to 15 where they can begin cannibalizing Warframes.

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3 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Okay, two parts to that.

Buffing some of those abilities to make them more compelling - they did buff a couple of base abilities, most notably Well of Life. What was said on stream sounded like buffing the versions of abilities granted through the Helminth, not base abilities, but that entirely doesn't work; either you could then apply that newly buffed ability to the base frame, which would be silly and also result in the same thing as buffing the base ability, or you'd be disallowed from doing so, which means the frame in question would be the only frame with a weak version of their own ability. Extra grind, thematic contradiction, whatever the result, making the Helminth buff an ability from its base version would be a terrible idea. So if we want a good ability from Loki or Zephyr for the Helminth, we're just going to have to wait for their respective frame reworks when and if they come. There's a limit to how much DE can do at once.   

What they did instead was leave a lot of abilities in trash tier, because they can't possibly rework all of those frames for this update, while leaving a wide middle ground of reasonably useful abilities that ranges from Fire Walker level to Nourish Strike level, and a few at the top. And now they've decided that those few at the top are going to be pushed down to that level of, one assumes, Ensnare, Molt, Breach Surge, etc. - good but not frame-defining abilities.

As for picking something else instead, Warcry is definitely the only thing you'd want from Valkyr, even in a reduced state, and it's the only melee speed buff on the list, so it adds variety. Roar surprised me with its inclusion, and it's similar enough to Nourish Strike that I'd personally rather have Charge, but it's not an unreasonable choice and it's not unreasonable to say that it needed to come in a reduced form to match the power curve DE intends for the Helminth. In general, with each of those choices, and any chosen ability for the Helminth, I'd say they chose what they did because they felt that ability in that form was going to contribute the most to an interesting Helminth system.

The problem with buffing most of the abilities is that would take more time and testing, and they need to get this out sooner rather then later.  Postponing releases to rework a lot of items does not work in the long run, the dev ball needs to keep rolling.   Some of them certainly should be buffed eventually, but I would rather like have the new war quest first.

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Precisely.

18 minutes ago, KurtisPrime said:

But why give us these 'OP' ability to begin. If they are willing to give good ability than give them out, if they don't like fun then just give crap ability only. People were hype and they kill it.

Again, I think it's pretty simple. Someone felt these particular abilities would be the best choices from those frames, but they didn't fit the intended power curve, so they got limited a bit, however much that turns out to be. I can't tell you why they chose a limited Roar over a Charge because I'd rather have Charge than Roar myself. I can tell you why they didn't include a full Roar, because they've already explained that. 

Edited by CopperBezel
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If you're going to nerf a skill in a system that's not even live, you should probably choose a different skill to contribute from that warframe.

For example, DO NOT GIVE US RHINO'S ROAR!  It's as signature to Rhino as Ironskin and Stomp.  Give out Charge instead.

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Here are some wbility buffs that will bow peole's minds.

 

Mag's pull has a 25%chance to have enemies give energy orbs if killed by pull. What if instead that enemy got marked by pull and then had that 25% chance to poop energy? 

Reave. Since it can't combo wombo with revenant allow it to go through lasers without tripping them like cloud Walker.

Mesa? Uncapped damage. Suddenly compelling to store up by killing shmucko whoever and have Big Bullet in reserve.

Mirage? Number go down, but in exchange dark energy color gives yu darkness buff, light energy color gives bight buff.

Ember and gauss. Make those abilities behave as if they were at full meter.

Nyx. That enemy has the same aggro draw as a defense target.

Loki. His decoy has the same aggro draw a defense twrget has, 10x loki's health, and on death explodes in a (base 10 meter) radius dealing impact and radiation procs to anyone still standing. Casting while active detonates the decoy.

Zephyr. The suck part of her airburst is made stronger for immediate suction of enemies.

Frost. Icewave leaves zones frames can get a parkiur boost from similar to titania's passive. Fold in the augment's behavior so it gives lingering cold effect. New augment that gives +100 to icewave's effect duration and gives affected enemies a debuff where they can spread cold procs to surrounding enemies for icewave's duration. Augment name 'ice 9'

 

There you go. Eleven buffs to otherwise worthless abilities. Want me to do more?

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On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

The reduction in magnitude on certain abilities won't change the fact that they will still be the "overwhelming choice." The reason why they will be the top picks is because of their fundamental mechanic (aka useful synergies that can be used with a lot of frames). This change won't fix anything or change the distribution of abilities picked, only reduce potential effectiveness/usefulness of this new system (angering players without even accomplishing their stated objective).  

Specific examples of nerfs: The reason why Roar/Eclipse will still be the over whelming choice is that it multiplies all your damage (and significantly reduces the damage taken in case of eclipse). All Warframes would benefit from a true damage multiplier and/or damage taken reduction. Protea's dispenser has no competition for universal supplies so reducing it's number won't change anything because if a player wants supplies it is the only option. 

Specific examples of under performing skills: Now let us look at decoy, what Warframe would benefit from a squishy distraction clone that is weaker than a specter (a gear option is superior to this ability). Additionally what role is this ability supposed to even fill? Increase in survivability by creating a distraction? If that is the case better Nerf mind control because it does the same thing and it scales with the content while doing damage. Though the elephant in the room is that neither of these abilities would be used because if a player wants to increase survivability it is more effective to buff the warframe itself or de-buff all the hostiles. 

DE should not take this half measure of reducing the magnitude of certain abilities because it won't change the distribution of abilities used. The only way this issue could be addressed is fundamentally changing the mechanics of the abilities (and it really should be changes to the abilities that have no determinable niche/use or are just out competed by gear wheel options). I am all for the objective of giving players more viable choices, but reducing magnitudes of useful abilities does not do this instead it only has the potential of reducing viable choices. 

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