The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[EonCode]

Justo ahora, 2ndPersonPlural dijo:

There's no reason for every power, or even every frame, to be competitive with each other.  This is a PvE game.

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I think MR 8 is too soon for subsuming.  Maybe 12-14.

True, but a skill should compete with others in something, but there are 2 skills that do the same, but 1 does it 10 times better, then why would I want the shet version of it, Lull from Baruk and Rest from Equinox, Equinox rest its much much better, same with blind from excalibur, same function, but better range and duration. But for mirage and rhino their skills compete with each other because are not the same exact function, mesa already has dmg on 4, but with eclipse she can hide and become a tanky turret on a corner, or a glass cannon on light.

The main issue is that there is no competitivity, only 10ish skills that are good or half decent and then GARBAGE. And yes, why is MR 8 the lvl for this....

[DSAUSAGE]

OMG I have a terrible thought

what if they nerf teh abilities on original frames too, to FIX this mess....

[Hawk197]

1 minute ago, 2ndPersonPlural said:

There's no reason for every power, or even every frame, to be competitive with each other.  This is a PvE game.

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I think MR 8 is too soon for subsuming.  Maybe 12-14.

But there is. Why would I choose Shock or Fire Blast, over Roar or Defy? There's so many garbage abilities on this list that of course it was going to funnel the selection down to 5 or 6 choices. But as I and many others have said, nerfing these abilities doesn't make me not want to use those abilities, or make me more inclined to use those garbage abilities. I'm still going to use a 5% Defy over Shock, or a 10 second Dispensary to get energy/health/ammo over Well of Life to just get health. That's why there needs to be competing abilities. Maybe Dispensary gives all that stuff still, but Well of Life gives a health buff as well? Now I might consider Well of Life since I got plenty of ammo and energy options already.

 

Like you said, this is a pve game, there's no reason to nerf stuff as such. Just buff the garbage ones. And if things are to powerful, who cares? It's not like Warframe is going to replace Halo or CS:GO at the next EVO.

 

And I do agree MR 8 is too soon. That's a literal week of playing. Maybe DE kinda forgot that players can get Taxi'd around the solar system and unlock farms instantly. Maybe DE is counting on the fact that there's about a 4 day build timer, but if I have to wait 4 days for a build I could just not play for those 4 days as well.

[Pzykdruhgs]

3 minutes ago, DSAUSAGE said:

OMG I have a terrible thought

what if they nerf teh abilities on original frames too, to FIX this mess....

This wouldn't be so bad tbh if they think the abilities are really that overpowered I don't see why not.

[Almagnus1]

Brozime goes into some pretty good depth on ways to improve this system, especially by choosing different abilities without needing to nerf the abilities in the Helminth system.  IMO the best design for the Helminth system is to NOT have any changes to any of the abilities and have a good enough ability selection where things make sense.

 

[(PSN)Adam_Skaarz]

Great so you've now made the whole system pointless before you even released it. When are DE going to learn that nerfing things kills the fun when you could just stop the other abilities from being useless. This has put a real damper on my excitement for heart of Deimos, I dunno if I'll even bother playing it at launch now, might as well wait for everything in the update to have all the fun nerfed out of it.

DE you say you listen to player feedback and yet people have been saying for literal years "stop nerfing good things and make the rubbish things better instead" and you haven't listened in the slightest. There are huge slews of weapons, abilities and mods in the game that are basically useless but instead of fixing that you just keep sucking the fun out of the few good ones.

[Sebastianx]

On 2020-08-12 at 8:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Numbers please, numbers, what is the base stats of those nerfed abilities, don't expect us to first infuse them to find it out for ourselves, please give us numbers. Like Roar is 50% damage, what's the base if infused?

[(PSN)MaGanicGo]

I cannot adequately explain my overwhelming disappointment and sadness over this. By “player feedback” you mean to tell me that you NERFED abilities because we were EXCITED about them? WHAT COMPANY DOES THAT TO THEIR PLAYER BASE? Why didn’t you take the abilities that we ARENT excited for and buff them instead, or change them completely?! How dare we have reasons to play “bad” warframes again, is apparently what you’re thinking?

 

Like, isn’t that what you wanted? To bring unused warframes out of the closet? I was so excited. I thought it would bring players back to the game...now this? I am so tired of you guys presenting these amazing things to us over and over and then crapping all over it, every single time. How dare you? How dare you hype us up for this only to rip the rug out from under us? I swear we can’t have anything nice before you NERF IT. I have been excitedly amassing warframes for weeks, so excited to have a reason to play this game again, only for you to throw the bombshell that you’re nerfing the “good” ones? What was the point of giving us those abilities to begin with then? I’m not going to be able to play this game, which I have thousands of hours in, for a very long time.

[brilhantine]

[Kokokojo]

My frustration goes to the mindset the took on making those specific abilities less appealing to not overshadow other. They failed on doing that, in a very pathetic way imo.
I doubt you will look at Decoy and choose that over Molt or Resonator.
I doubt you will look at Mind Control and choose that over Banish or, well any other "turn off this enemy" kinda of ability.
Even if it's just to make a gimmick or a very specific nitch, there are many other abilities that do overshadow one another.

All of those Warframe abilities (except Xato) are in game already, we know how they work, there is no "let's wait the release and test it", they are already in game.

If you go by the mindset of "not overshadow others", why not make Molt and Resonator less appealing for Decoy looks?
Why don't you make Ensnare (Larva is already touched) less appealing for Air burst?
Why don't you make Quiver less appealing for Silence?
Why don't you make Shuriken's Augument less appealing for Tempest Barrage Augumen, Fire Blast and Termal Sunder?
Now that's alot of thing you need to touch no? No matter if you decide to tone down or up, you can't avoid the responsability you put on yourselves of making changes to MOST of the abilities on the list.

These changes are inconsistency and short visioned ideas at it's PRIME. DE just tried to take the easy path, but with a blindfold.
DE, yet again in a short period of time, is losing player faith.

[XaelathRavenstorm]

People will still pick these abilities even with the nerfs.

[Maka.Bones]

I was looking forward to coming back from my break from warframe, but it looks like i'll be waiting a while longer... Seriously DE, you need to stop with your cold feet. You need to keep some things for VETERANS and other things for new players. If you make everything for everyone, then it loses flavor. It's like mixing your dessert ice cream, along with your steak entree, just for the sake of saving time.

You're not making things better, you're making them leave a bad taste and less enjoyable for everyone. It's no longer something that feels satisfying to earn, or a goal to reach towards. Holy sheet; guys... Why do you guys keep getting cold feet on everything that's starting to look good, and you turn back, revert the awesome concepts and ideas, then leave things feeling half-assed instead? That's exactly what happened with your hiccups when you released railjack. 

I love this game, and I was really looking forward to coming back after there was more content and railjack was improved, but damn why tf do you guys keep repeating the same mistakes EVERY.TIME. you make new content?!

[(XBOX)MasterZiggy076]

hace 53 minutos, Hixlysss dijo:

Just once I wish you guys would make a system with a high MR requirement, and stick to it. Now you're going to have all kinds of people complaining that "It costs too much." or what ever else they can think of. You need to introduce things to make getting more MR a goal. As it stands you can get to MR 16 and just...stop, you have access to everything, every riven and every weapon, every gameplay system/mechanic. This is why I advocated that the Helminth MR would be 20, instead of 15. But no, instead you dropped it to 8.

I totally agree, it is absurd to go down to MR 8, I should minimum MR15 and I support MR20

[EonCode]

Justo ahora, XaelathRavenstorm dijo:

People will still pick these abilities even with the nerfs.

Because even if are BAD, the worst ones are so bad they have no utility. I prefer to have a +1 dmg in place of NONE.

[Spotdodge]

I was so excited for this system now I don't even want to install the update.

[Sebastianx]

Please re-consider MR8 as the point to allow this, not very long ago a friend started playing and he's at MR8, and currently still very much learning about new things that the game has to offer, piling yet another system in there won't help. Make it MR12, that's when players usually properly get into the game

[Arcsyrine]

@[DE]Steve Why don't you guys buff the less wanted Warframe abilities instead of always nerfing?

Like Decoy; why would anyone use Decoy when Octavia's Resonator is available? It is basically a better version of the ability. You could give Loki's Switch Teleport and buff it so you don't need a target but get a reduced range without a target.

Nyx's Mind Control is another one I don't think anyone will use, beyond a meme build. Maybe if you could control more than one target? Even then I don't think it would be used much.

Revenant's Reave is also useless for healing without the synergy with his Enthrall. If you buffed the percent of damage you heal from it would be a better option.

Zephyr's Airburst is still very lacklustre because the suck doesn't group up enemies very well. If it held enemies in place for even 2 seconds it would be much better and would probably compete with Nidus' Larva.

Mag's Pull is probably only going to be used by Nekros with the augment. If you changed the Energy orb drop to be a chance on death after being pulled as opposed to being on death BY Pull it would be much more tempting. More like Nezha's Chakram.

For Limbo's Banish if you changed it to Banish yourself on Hold instead of let enemies out it would be much more compelling, even if you reduced the duration. As it is I would never choose it because it only puts enemies in a time out and nothing else.

I don't think anyone will be using Nekros' Terrify because ti makes enemies run away and the amount of Armor Strip is not worth it. If it stripped enough arrmor to be relevant it might see more use.

 

I fell like buffing or swapping the less wanted Abilities to make choices harder would be a much better received move than to nerf the options that most people gravitate towards. Personally I'm of the opinion that Roar should not have been given. I think Iron Skin would have been a much safer option, because outside of it's synergy with Rhino's Augments for it and his Charge the amount of health it gets isn't that much when you get into the content that is played by the more experienced players.

[Borg1611]

I think the suggestions others have made including some streamers about just buffing some of the weaker abilities would go a long way in making the list of compelling abilities much larger. IE: make pull debuff enemies so they have a higher chance of dropping energy orbs even if pull doesn't get the kill, increase the range of well of life?, do anything to any of frost abilities etc.

I'd also like to throw out there that one thing that could be really interesting is at the helminth UI, allow us to put an augment in that adds the augment ability to the ability without needing to use up a mod slot. This would make things like Molt a compelling choice all the sudden because it now heals without needing to waste a mod slot. Also since it's this huge progression system you're making people go through, it would make sense to have that extra advantage in getting a free augment slot for the helminth ability. 

[FarfarsGamlaKalsonger]

I do not get it, why was the system lowered to mr 8? Insted of mr 15. Most I know in game are mr 20+.

I whated to see that the Helminth system was used for something intressting and fun. What if the system was not watered down, didn't limit players and the player got a free hand. I have talked about this and the only argument I keep hearing is that the custom frame built will be to op, the thing is that it is all a matter of time before you hitt the roof of what you can kill. So my idea for this system is to let the player get the frames and pick diffrent parts that have diffrent abilities. Than it can't be for free, so what if the building a new frame is going to cost. Like many formas and rrs. 

My idea was to make the frames parts into a ablities system. That will make the parts diffrent and worth something. The neuro can give the 4th ability, the chassie can give the 3rd ability, the systems can give the 2nd ability, and the first one can come from the arms and legs. 

[_Blackeye_]

A NERF????? REALLY??

Fix the damn stupid abilities instead of making the few good ones crap?

Also, the veterans finally had a system being exclusive to those who invested (and still mr15 wasn't really high and is pretty easy to get) and now you lower that too?????

Why not just give away some catalysts and reactors? Or forma? And we'll be better of with that....

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

The youtubers have good ideas and such

[YuiAstin]

On 2020-08-20 at 1:03 AM, [DE]Megan said:

-snip-

so let me get this straight, you guys saying that you rather nerf abilities to limit our options because those abilities are "meta" and people are leaning towards the meta

excuse me but you guys clearly don't understand the concept of meta because meta will always exists no matter what

if you guys want other abilities to "compete" with the "meta" abilities you should give buffs to 90% of those trash abilities in the list instead of limiting our options

if you keeps limiting player's option to use the helminth system, you essentially killing your system before it even came out of testing because what will players do when they don't have a good reason to do with the system ? Surprise, they don't use the system that you guys spend time and money into developing it good job DE.

[(XBOX)Father Fro3091]

To anyone who isn’t above mastery rank 8 they don’t deserve this power. It takes no effort but playing the game to get to Mastery rank 8. 15 is for people who stuck around and enjoyed the game. And for what’s SUPPOSED to be end game content it should of stayed at 15. 

[9Drade]

4 minutes ago, YuiAstin said:

so let me get this straight, you guys saying that you rather nerf abilities to limit our options because those abilities are "meta" and people are leaning towards the meta

excuse me but you guys clearly don't understand the concept of meta because meta will always exists no matter what

if you guys want other abilities to "compete" with the "meta" abilities you should give buffs to 90% of those trash abilities in the list instead of limiting our options

if you keeps limiting player's option to use the helminth system, you essentially killing your system before it even came out of testing because what will players do when they don't have a good reason to do with the system ? Surprise, they don't use the system that you guys spend time and money into developing it good job DE.

Yep. Limited choice is why these abilities become meta in the first place. More restriction won't solve that problem.

[Lambshade]

Would people like it if they revert every abilities to their original state, BUT.. lock every abilities behind 100% str/dur/rng etc, basically unmoddable.

It's not the best solution i know. At least it's no less powerful than their original part, but also kinda less powerful since you can't mod it.