The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, Hawk197 said:

Why is powercreep bad? If all we had to choose from were Shock and Roar, why would we choose Shock? Seriously, what would be the reason to choose Shock? AoE damage? Amprex exists. Zappy gun that chains lightning everywhere, there you go, more damage to boot. Now let's imagine if we could ONLY choose Shock. What would be the reason to farm 150 Alloy Plate, 1 Neural Sensor, 150 Polymer Bundle, 800 Rubedo, 2 Morphics, 1000 Ferrite, 1 Control Module, 500 Salvage, 220 Plastids, and 150,000 Credits to craft Volt, and then wait 3 and a half days to craft said Volt, plus any extra materials Helminth will require, plus the needed rep to get Rank 3? See the issue? There are a select few people who'll climb mountains just for the experience, but the majority of people will ask "What's in it for me?". And that thing that's in it for them, is a tard covered in gold leaf, with 2 eyes and a mouth painted on it. It's like the bootleg 💩. People aren't going to do that. That's why you need powercreep.

 

Powercreep also drives innovation, since it forces the devs to ask "How do we make this more powerful or more interesting than the contenders" verses "How do we weaken this thing so older things can catch up".

Because there's absolutely no reason to buff players when there's nothing that NEEDS buffing. Why does Decoy need to compete with Roar? In fact, how would you buff Decoy to even convince people to take it over Roar? More specifically, given the trend of press-4-to-win frames dominating the game, how would you powercreep these skills to make Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, Volt, or Ember take them over something that's going to give them a multiplicative damage buff?

Ignoring Steel Path which only exists to give masochists some sense of challenge while providing next to no rewards for the effort, enemies in this game are as weak as paper, even moreso now that the defense scaling nerf finally landed.

Know what powercreep has gotten us? Nullifiers. You know, those bubble dudes nobody asked for that are designed for the sole purpose of making sure people can't just make all problems in the game go away by tapping 4. How likely would it have been for DE to create them if they first didn't give us something like corrupted mods or adding/reworking frames with abilities that let them cast an ability 20+ meters out, ignore LoS, and 1shot anything on the star chart?

And now we're going to let them have Roar without even needing a Rhino in the team?

[9Drade]

19 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Since Catchmoon, I call BS whenever someone talks about buffing the weak things instead of nerfing. The cries and howls after the Catchmoon nerf in this forum! The exact same arguments then and now.

Catchmoon was OP because of large numbers. Larger numbers than all other guns. Roar is "OP" in this case because of what it does, not by how much. Reducing the numbers for the Catchmooon was effective because it brought it in line with the numbers of other weapons.

Reducing the numbers for roar is not the same thing. It will still be chosen over every other ability by and large cause it is a straight damage increase, period. Even if it is a 90% reduction, I would still take 15% damage buff over basically every other ability on this list because most of them suck. Removing the offending "OP" abilities or buffing everything else are the only options imo. Brozime said the same in his video.

[(PSN)Cephalon_Break3r]

I don't think that anyone will end up reading this, but I will post it nonetheless. I really hope that all the abilities selected to be subsumed by this system are at full power. DE, if you are worried about people focusing on a few select power, that just means that the other powers are not as desirable. Why do you have to take the power/efficiency away from some abilities just because people enjoy them? One of the draws of this system is that new powers can add new styles of play. However, if you are nerfing the abilities that provide enough change to change a style of play, what is the point? Why can't you try to make some of the other abilities more appealing? With a few of the abilities, I DO think you took a step in the right direction (Zephyr, Trinity) but I don't think it is enough. I am really hoping that this system comes into the game well, and is fun for players; I am still very excited about it, but I am also worried about your perceived "need to balance." Anyways, I'm not going to try to tell you, "Oh, I'm going to stop playing if I don't get my way!" but I would enjoy it SO VERY MUCH if everything was "normal" power. I have enjoyed this game since the release of the PS4, and hope that I can continue to enjoy this game for many years to come. I am looking forward to August 25th!

[9Drade]

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Why does Decoy need to compete with Roar?

Because DE says it does I guess? Ask them. Any ability being overwhelmingly chosen is apparently "not ideal". As if anything else could happen when given a sea of bad abilities. Who knew the best would stand out? Shocker.

[Dalladir]

After thinking for some time I believe releasing this right now was a big mistake on DE part it's like they don't have any foresight, if they want to implement a system that estimate player creativity they had to start working on abilities and frames reworks at least 6 months ago so we get interesting things right now and it's too late now, yes they can fix this in the future but what matters are our first impressions.

[NekronisXV]

I understand why you sometimes rather insist on making nerfs instead of buffs, it is obviously easier and I can't blame you for that. But we are just talking about 44 Abilities. Just around 20 needs a buff, that isn't that hard and we players would be happy having more variety. And why nerfing something that is not out yet, let us at least have some fun with it for two weeks and then decide if it is really that game-breaking. Also, I don't see why the MR reduction?!?! You say it is supposed to be a system for experienced players, I do not consider an MR 8 player as experienced. Give those people with high MR some privileges.

[Darkncoldead]

On 2020-08-12 at 12:57 PM, --Q--FSK41 said:

This System is broken and will break the game completely,it shouldn't come into the game so many broken  combinations,for example mesa and eclipse/roar = who the hell thought of this. its completely unbalanced PLEASE DE do NOT put this into the game,since you made enemies paper the game is already quite easy but with this its literally broken

Please remove the damage BUFFING and abilities that do scaling/area damage it will break the game too much

are you happy now?

[9Drade]

2 minutes ago, Dalladir said:

After thinking for some time I believe releasing this right now was a big mistake on DE part it's like they don't have any foresight, if they want to implement a system that estimate player creativity they had to start working on abilities and frames reworks at least 6 months ago so we get interesting things right now and it's too late now, yes they can fix this in the future but what matters are our first impressions.

When exactly do you think they began working on the massive list of stuff they debuted at Tennocon? Last week? An entire open world? They did work on this for six months, at least.

[Keyhound]

22 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

For starters, how do you even buff these skills you mentioned to be even worth taking over something like Roar or Eclipse which would make broken, press-4-to-win nuke frames even more busted?

What could you possibly give to Decoy to make a Mesa user take it over a multiplicative global strength buff that is Roar? What could you possibly give to Air Burst to make Saryn take it over Eclipse?

Just because you main tank frames that aren't a big issue to this game's balance like Nidus (and I'm glad you do, because Nidus is awesome) doesn't mean everyone else isn't going to flock to the new hotness that is applying a multiplicative damage buff to yourself and 1shotting rooms of enemies.

I'd much rather get nothing useful to replace one of my skills as Revenant (except maybe his 4) than seeing more players running broken frames trivializing the game for everyone else in the team by mashing 4 until they reach extraction. 😛

you do it, by giving them utility. people want survivability on squishy frames, people want abilities that do good cc, they want abilities that group enemies... but they dont need to be the exact same.

loki has no need for roar, all it will give him, is more weapon damage. which can be borderline pointless. same for ash and ivara. there are frames that will be built with minimal duration or str. meaining, roar will be beyond useless.

that's how you make bad skills better.
air burst could be a smaller, but faster cast version of vortex. it just draws enemies in 5-7m to the same point and keep them there for a short time. but actually drag them into it, instead of gently point them towards it.
that way you could use it on a frame that needs that,

decoy could give a true decoy, that is imortal, and just draws agro from everyone, or you could add a mod that turns it into a secondary health dump, with him absorbing the damage that you receive.

banish could be used on yourself to enter the rift on your own. and that could be used by any invis frame as a good way to avoid damage/energy walls.

utility is how you make something more appealing.

[9Drade]

2 minutes ago, Darkncoldead said:

are you happy now?

No? They didn't remove the abilities. They nerfed them. His point stands exactly the same, they will be chosen over every other combination, despite a change to their amounts.

[9Drade]

DE update drives Tenno excitement down down dooowwnnnn...

[brilhantine]

3 minutes ago, Darkncoldead said:

are you happy now?

 

she even answered this guy, I think that's what made them nerf XD

[b4timert]

I dont think its wrong to decrease the MR requirement to 8.

Here is why. At mr 8 players will most likely start getting multiple prime frames. Most low mr players are not good at making plat and is essensine limited to their frame slots to get new frames they need to sell frames to be able to buy more. making mr 15 will in essence increase the feel bad moment for those players.Imagen the following happens

1)You dont know about the system sell your frame and thenon mr 15 you become aware you could have done it now your angry since you need to farm the frame again or you sold your extra part. it is completely different feel bad i would imagen to high mr players  that now see it as a new system.

2)you dont want to sell your normal frames for new slots but then you dont have the plat to buy extra slots so your frames is limited this in essence slow down your mr gain.

3)it looks like a cash grab. for example it look like DE dont want to use the system for new players and they need to spend money to buy new frames 2 times to use a system. or they need to buy 2 slots to "keep' the frame until they can use the system. they need to sell the frames for credits and then farm them again or spend real money to get extra slots.(i know if you know how you can farm plat but that isnt how it looks to new players)

 

the above 3 problems is what will happen to most new players.

[Darkncoldead]

1 minute ago, 9Drade said:

No? They didn't remove the abilities. They nerfed them. His point stands exactly the same, they will be chosen over every other combination, despite a change to their amounts.

Ok so make everything bad so no one uses it, because for real no one is going to choose decoy over roar even if they nerf it to %50, what else is rhino going to give that is not a waste on a warframe?

[Sahansral]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Hawk197:

Why is powercreep bad? If all we had to choose from were Shock and Roar, why would we choose Shock? Seriously, what would be the reason to choose Shock? AoE damage? Amprex exists. Zappy gun that chains lightning everywhere, there you go, more damage to boot. Now let's imagine if we could ONLY choose Shock. What would be the reason to farm 150 Alloy Plate, 1 Neural Sensor, 150 Polymer Bundle, 800 Rubedo, 2 Morphics, 1000 Ferrite, 1 Control Module, 500 Salvage, 220 Plastids, and 150,000 Credits to craft Volt, and then wait 3 and a half days to craft said Volt, plus any extra materials Helminth will require, plus the needed rep to get Rank 3? See the issue? There are a select few people who'll climb mountains just for the experience, but the majority of people will ask "What's in it for me?". And that thing that's in it for them, is a tard covered in gold leaf, with 2 eyes and a mouth painted on it. It's like the bootleg 💩. People aren't going to do that. That's why you need powercreep.

 

Powercreep also drives innovation, since it forces the devs to ask "How do we make this more powerful or more interesting than the contenders" verses "How do we weaken this thing so older things can catch up".

Power creep is the reason why much of the invested dev ressources gets wasted by becoming mere mastery fodder over time,  decreasing our pool of viable options instead of increasing it.

Power creep is the reason that the dev team is delegated to the rat race of updating an ever growing old content, which clearly could be better used for new content. That may be one of the reasons for fewer and fewer content updates?

Power creep is the reason that DE has to rely on mechanics like Nullifiers to cut back our powers. 

Want to know why melee is king now and makes a joke out of secondaries/primaries? Why cc and support frames are dead, while tanks/dps reign surpreme? Power creep.

[9Drade]

3 minutes ago, Darkncoldead said:

Ok so make everything bad so no one uses it, because for real no one is going to choose decoy over roar even if they nerf it to %50, what else is rhino going to give that is not a waste on a warframe?

Are you even paying attention? Making everything bad is what they want to do. You are literally repeating me. There is no way to make anyone choose anything over roar. Thus -- it needs to go.

[Zaeronine]

A while back, Mirage got a quality-of-life buff that set her buffs at uniform duration. Any chance we will see other buff abilities get the same treatment (e.g. Mesa's shatter shield and shooting gallery)?

[Almagnus1]

And if you haven't seen it, you should see Brozime's video on the nerfs.

[Dalladir]

5 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

When exactly do you think they began working on the massive list of stuff they debuted at Tennocon? Last week? An entire open world? They did work on this for six months, at least.

I'm not talking about open world stuff, I'm talking about the helminth system.

[Keyhound]

6 minutes ago, b4timert said:

I dont think its wrong to decrease the MR requirement to 8.

Here is why. At mr 8 players will most likely start getting multiple prime frames. Most low mr players are not good at making plat and is essensine limited to their frame slots to get new frames they need to sell frames to be able to buy more. making mr 15 will in essence increase the feel bad moment for those players.Imagen the following happens

1)You dont know about the system sell your frame and thenon mr 15 you become aware you could have done it now your angry since you need to farm the frame again or you sold your extra part. it is completely different feel bad i would imagen to high mr players  that now see it as a new system.

2)you dont want to sell your normal frames for new slots but then you dont have the plat to buy extra slots so your frames is limited this in essence slow down your mr gain.

3)it looks like a cash grab. for example it look like DE dont want to use the system for new players and they need to spend money to buy new frames 2 times to use a system. or they need to buy 2 slots to "keep' the frame until they can use the system. they need to sell the frames for credits and then farm them again or spend real money to get extra slots.(i know if you know how you can farm plat but that isnt how it looks to new players)

 

the above 3 problems is what will happen to most new players.

the problem with your argument is that, it ignores how people have bashed the game for forcing players to pay plat for things that are necessary to the game. making the system access earlier wont fix that. "but people will be getting their primes" mr 8 is around 8 days of play for many players. if you go check the help chat, you will find multiple mr 10s asking about basic stuff, because they have no idea how it works.

mr 15 doesnt garantee that only "veterans" will use it, but it will at least bar most begginers from messing up.

[IRVoidGuru]

On 2020-08-19 at 2:45 PM, [DE]Megan said:

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

Any chance you could add a requirement of "complete the base starchart" before gaining access to Helminth Segment? It forces the experience of every mission on a player before getting a system that most MR 8 are not ready for.

[Morthal]

I was never interested in Roar, Rhino is overrated. Nearly all of the listed abilities are useless as I don't need a dmg boost, I need bug fixes and scaling resources/rewards--now THAT would be an ability worth trading. 

[Sahansral]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb 9Drade:

Catchmoon was OP because of large numbers. Larger numbers than all other guns. Roar is "OP" in this case because of what it does, not by how much. Reducing the numbers for the Catchmooon was effective because it brought it in line with the numbers of other weapons.

Reducing the numbers for roar is not the same thing. It will still be chosen over every other ability by and large cause it is a straight damage increase, period. Even if it is a 90% reduction, I would still take 15% damage buff over basically every other ability on this list because most of them suck. Removing the offending "OP" abilities or buffing everything else are the only options imo. Brozime said the same in his video.

The community uses the math and choose the bigger number (and roar has a purely mathmatical effect). That exactly the reason why roar needs to be toned down massivly as a subsumed ability. To bring it back in line with the other damage increasing skills, you need to hit it hard, really hard, because it‘s multiplicative. 

Perhaps it is preferable to remove the top 6. 

Need to watch Brozimes video...

[9Drade]

2 minutes ago, Morthal said:

I was never interested in Roar, Rhino is overrated. Nearly all of the listed abilities are useless as I don't need a dmg boost, I need bug fixes and scaling resources/rewards--now THAT would be an ability worth trading. 

Totally agree. They act like people are excited about roar cause it is insanely OP or something, when the opposite is true. It is good, we are just not excited about the other stuff. Nerfs will not fix lack of options.

[grimSagely]

19 minutes ago, NekronisXV said:

I understand why you sometimes rather insist on making nerfs instead of buffs, it is obviously easier and I can't blame you for that. But we are just talking about 44 Abilities. Just around 20 needs a buff, that isn't that hard and we players would be happy having more variety.

20 creative buffs to very "whatever" powers could take some time and still be worth the wait. 6 nerfs to the oVeRwHeLmInG cHoIcEs still makes them the top picks.. with worse numbers lol.