The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Gyious]

Suddenly much less excited.  When they announced it they said they would be buffing many abilities.  Less than 6 transferable abilities got buffed (pretty minor buffs too),  I was ok with this.

Then they started adding restrictions, like no two buffing abilities.  I can see how that would be pretty broken outright, so ok, I'm cool with that.

But now they're NERFING abilities?  I am suddenly not hyped for this anymore.  What's to keep them from nerfing more as soon as one becomes a little popular?  What's the point in me grinding duplicated copies of every warframe if there's marginal benefit to even swapping an ability?

I might still give the system a try when it releases, but honestly this let me down really hard.  I believed DE was finally on the right track, and I no longer do.  I can't keep up with this anymore.

[Pzykdruhgs]

1 hour ago, grimSagely said:

They kind of aren't, is all.. roar isn't that big a damage buff, eclipse -is- but is immediately out for eidolons because of light levels (main case where more damage especially on weapons matters) almost out for profit because she's squishy, but at least she works for dps, but regardless the light levels will plague every tileset you take her to. Larva is probably the best pull cc in the game today, but for a majority of content dps > cc. I can't really speak on dispensary besides it being an ability that gives energy, health, ammo. Warcry is valkyr's identity, regardless of values speed and armor are going to be important/desirable. Defy is underwhelming, depends on enemy damage for survivability, was already capped.

It would be like saying (Without including ults) "We're nerfing Chroma's 3 because too many people were pressing it in his kit.. also Ash's 2, Atlas's 1, Banshee's 2, Baruuk's 1, Chroma's 2, Ember's 2, Equinox's 2, Excalibur's 2, Frosts 3, Gara's 2, Garuda's 3, Gauss' 1, Grendel's 2, Harrow's 3, Hildryn's 2, Inaros' 1, Ivara's 3, Khora's 3, Limbo's 2, Loki's 3, Mag's 3, Mesa's 3, Mirage's 1 and 3, Nekros' 3, Nezha's 1, Nidus' 2, Nova's 3, Nyx' 2, Oberon's 2, Octavia's 3, Protea's 2, Revenant's 2, Rhino's 2, Saryn's 1, Titania's whole kit, Trinity's 2, Valkyr's 2, Vauban's whole kit, Volt's 2, Wisp's 1, Wukong's 2 and Zephyr's 1... because players were pressing those buttons too much and we want to encourage more of the other abilities to be pressed."

Edit: There's a meme in here see if you can find it.

[9Drade]

1 minute ago, Sahansral said:

To bring it back in line with the other damage increasing skills, you need to hit it hard, really hard, because it‘s multiplicative. 

If they nerf it so hard nobody chooses, then why is it in the list?

And furthermore, what other damage boost abilities? Shock/smite require augments, eclipse is only sometimes a damage boost.

[Keyhound]

1 minute ago, Gyious said:

Suddenly much less excited.  When they announced it they said they would be buffing many abilities.  Less than 6 transferable abilities got buffed (pretty minor buffs too),  I was ok with this.

Then they started adding restrictions, like no two buffing abilities.  I can see how that would be pretty broken outright, so ok, I'm cool with that.

But now they're NERFING abilities?  I am suddenly not hyped for this anymore.  What's to keep them from nerfing more as soon as one becomes a little popular?  What's the point in me grinding duplicated copies of every warframe if there's marginal benefit to even swapping an ability?

I might still give the system a try when it releases, but honestly this let me down really hard.  I believed DE was finally on the right track, and I no longer do.  I can't keep up with this anymore.

"i might still give the system a try when it releases". well, it requires rank 3 in the deimos syndicate, so... you know, you should be able to test it a few days after the release comes out...

[Hawk197]

4 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Because there's absolutely no reason to buff players when there's nothing that NEEDS buffing. Why does Decoy need to compete with Roar? In fact, how would you buff Decoy to even convince people to take it over Roar? More specifically, given the trend of press-4-to-win frames dominating the game, how would you powercreep these skills to make Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, Volt, or Ember take them over something that's going to give them a multiplicative damage buff?

Ignoring Steel Path which only exists to give masochists some sense of challenge while providing next to no rewards for the effort, enemies in this game are as weak as paper, even moreso now that the defense scaling nerf finally landed.

Know what powercreep has gotten us? Nullifiers. You know, those bubble dudes nobody asked for that are designed for the sole purpose of making sure people can't just make all problems in the game go away by tapping 4. How likely would it have been for DE to create them if they first didn't give us something like corrupted mods or adding/reworking frames with abilities that let them cast an ability 20+ meters out, ignore LoS, and 1shot anything on the star chart?

And now we're going to let them have Roar without even needing a Rhino in the team?

It goes back to what I said. If there's no good options, why use the system? Seriously, why is this being introduced, when all the options are complete garbage? The majority of players will just ignore it. When's the last time you seen people playing Lunaro? Been awhile, I can guarantee you that. How about Frame Fighter? Hell, how about Flappy Zephyr? These things aren't interesting, so why were they added? It's the job of the dev to make us interact with the product. If we aren't interacting with the product, that's wasted time and money on the devs part. The way you make us interact with that product is by making it enticing. Making it look like dung doesn't make me want to interact with that product, it makes me want to look elsewhere.

 

Press 4 to win frames are dominating because there's no gameplay loops that promote crowd control. Back in my day, Raids were dominated by crowd control frames, like Vauban and Loki. As for how I would powercreep abilities, simple. Molt doesn't need anything, it already gives a speed buff and has the augment to regen health. Shooting Gallery just needs a grace period between switches, like maybe 2 seconds so the player can get behind cover or such. Give Rage some insane damage buff, since it's riskier to use over something like Roar. Make Shock electrify the area you target, dealing damage and stunning enemies, making it like a trap for a few seconds. Fire Blast would be good if it functions like it was always at full power. Same goes for Thermal Sunder. If they functioned like you were at maximum heat or maximum Mach all the time, then yeah, these abilities would be awesome. But again, if you want to get rid of press 4 to win frames, you need to introduce more gameplay loops instead of the "Ungabunga, me am smasha you" loops.

 

Powercreep didn't give us Nullies, Aimbotting Mesa did. Let's not pretend Nullies were only introduced for press 4 to win frames. If that were the case, they would've been introduced long ago. Like, back when Xini was the best place to farm unlimited Syndicate rep long ago.

 

And who cares if you're killing some 40k health Charger with 2 million damage instead of 1 million damage? You're still killing basically everything in the normal star chart with or withour Roar. Literally, who cares? If I wanted to use a single brain cell instead of having fun, I could very, VERY, easily prepare my gear before the mission. I could use best elemental and damage combos, I could use high damage or high status weapons, I could use armor stripping tactics. Right tool for the right job and all that, you know? MR 8s aren't going into Steel Path or 60 minute Arbitrations.

[ChossetteDivine]

Il y a 2 heures, ADDgamer45 a dit :

Titania's grants duration based status immunity, disarm/disable, and an augment that gives back a ridiculous amount of energy (I have plans).

Nova's is duration based damage reduction not power strength so insanely good on duration frames.

spectorage is actually really good if you can gather enemies to that spot. Gara has no kit to do this.

if you need status immunity on another frame and use an ability slot to paliate that need, you do arguable choices, as for energy there are plenty of options that don't need 1 ability slot + 1 mod slot, arcane(notthe best exemple) zenurik, energy generator, pads(for dire needs), squadmates(and potentially their zenurik and such), dispensary, and regular orbs.

 

As for nova, it's DR might be duration based, but you lose charges periodical and it's not easily refreshed.

 

Spectrorage actually good? it will not be, at any point, because it requires too much to be considered. there is no frame that has a place for spectrorage in its kit, argument could be made, to use the operator's arcane magus anomaly, but at that point melee is better than spectrorage, which proves that the ability, if not given a significant buff, cannot be picked over any decent other ability.

 

My point here is, the ability can be good, but won't be because of the other choices avalaible, and nerfing those choices is what is angrying the community, because we wish we had a spectrorage capable to be appealing.

 

Since we will be able to replace abilities, spectrorage (and others) will just get replaced, and guess what, they will be vastly, by some roar, or dispensary, that's why the nerf isn't well received.

I'm not saying spellbinder, null star and other are bad abilities, there are very few bad ones, and most of the abilities that are bad in helminth's system are bad by themselves, while the "good" ones have 

general purpose like, let's say, Roar, Dispensary, Molt, and others.

The problem isn't the abilities, it's to chose to nerf the good ones and not doing anything with the "bad" ones.

 

You can use Spellbind from Titania, if you find a spot for it and have fun with it, it's cool, i'm even glad that you did, but in a lot of instances, for myself and a lot of other players, it will not be chosen over other options, because the spell hasn't that little things that makes me want to pick it over something else while not playing the frame it belongs to , and that feel can be replicated for so many abilities, in so many combination and this were is the malice of it all, instead of giving us that feel of "I want to try out this and that on this frame" we got "I might not use those 5 abilities because they are already planned to be nerfed" and this ~5 days befor launch.

 

[9Drade]

8 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Perhaps it is preferable to remove the top 6. 

I mostly think roar is the problem, perhaps along with eclipse. Even if they removed all six, there would just be another top six. That's like, how lists of things work. Is DE really saying anything popular has to go? Great.

[Pawgasm]

10 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Well, not easy to rework 35 abilitites to make them competitive with the best 6 with the deadline coming nearer and nearer and having all available ressources bount to new content...

They are a huge development company with millions in the bank and a LOT of talent at the wheel. I Think they can handle a few ability tweaks and changing numbers from 1 to 2.

[Gyious]

1 minute ago, Keyhound said:

"i might still give the system a try when it releases". well, it requires rank 3 in the deimos syndicate, so... you know, you should be able to test it a few days after the release comes out...

This also makes me sad, but it was something I was willing to put up with.  There are a lot of things in Warframe that I am willing to put up with.  But eventually it's too many.

[Mos-Eisley]

DE: We realized that players only wanted to use good abilities instead of bad ones, so to fix this we made all of them bad. You’re welcome!

[Aggh]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Is this just an attempt to rile up players before the update instead to get it out of the way early?

[linn4you]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Almagnus1:

And if you haven't seen it, here's Brozime's video on the nerfs:

 

Brozime nailed it.
pls delay the helminth system and put it on the testserver at 25.8, thats why we have the testserver! omg...
i don´t even want the update anymore...

 

[Zhulek]

nerfed before getting in the game

no point of using it

thanks de

[brilhantine]

4 minutes ago, Tuiat said:

They are a huge development company with millions in the bank and a LOT of talent at the wheel. I Think they can handle a few ability tweaks and changing numbers from 1 to 2.

 

sometimes, with the amount of bizarre errors on the part of developing ideas and applying them, I think it’s just who we see there in the devstreams that are working, that way because they don’t have enough time to read comments and see feedback, everything comes out bad XD

[(PSN)KresTias]

Im okay with nerfs n tweaks, but mr8? It must be first april fools joke

[saghzs]

6 hours ago, danberhe said:

that would kill wukong

No it would not?

Wukong has more than just his clone, he can get incredibly tanky, he has a exalted and one of the best movement abilities in the game

Loki has a completly different kit, he would not steal wukongs place.

[BrazilianJoe]

Just give up on Warcry and make Ripline decent. 

Well, she could benefit from a rework on her 4 as well. 

 

[(PSN)captain_riley1]

10 minutes ago, linn4you said:

Brozime nailed it.
pls delay the helminth system and put it on the testserver at 25.8, thats why we have the testserver! omg...
i don´t even want the update anymore...

 

I mean the rest of Deimos looks great but regarding a system that affects the core game I'd agree, so maybe not have the abilites that were nerfed when infused not be the abilities given if there gonna be such a damn problem. Maybe iron skin or charge instead of roar. And also I'll say it again the Mr 15 requirement was fine, why was that even changed, that just goes back on what Steve said during the reveal since Mr8 takes no time to reach at all. 

[(PSN)ironfist_94]

DE...You have no idea how to balance your game or make your players happy. 

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

il y a 19 minutes, ChossetteDivine a dit :

As for nova, it's DR might be duration based, but you lose charges periodical and it's not easily refreshed.

 

Stick the augment to it. 

Null Star w/ Augment will absolutely slaps on Banshee for example. Assuming you mod Banshee for High Duration / Low range to maximise the use of Silence (since it stops working after 5-6 seconds of CC), you can easily get the 18 stars for max DR, the augment to recast it periodically, and still keep sonar augment for high damage.

Nervos Tesla and Breach Surge are also very good abilities. I'd probably try to stick Tesla Bank on Mesa Prime to maximise the DPS even further. (I originally wanted to use Empowered Quiver, but they removed the dashwire from it apparently)

 

I do agree that some abilities, like Hydroid's, should be reworked or buffed tho. 

[NeroWolf42]

DE - "It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice"

Everyone - "buff the bad abilities, don't nerf the good abilities" or "it's better to buff bad abilities then nerf good ones"

DE - "we have a community?"

[Claric]

2 hours ago, 2ndPersonPlural said:

There's no reason for every power, or even every frame, to be competitive with each other.  This is a PvE game.

----

I think MR 8 is too soon for subsuming.  Maybe 12-14.

I absolutely agree. All this talk of balance in a game where the end-goal is to murder everything as quickly and efficiently as possible is just simply vexing. Either you make everyone the same, thereby making everyone redundant, or you keep the imbalance and offer some modicum of variety so at least some things feel special or different. There should be some things that should be powerful while others are lesser so.

[Alejandrokek]

Hi. Please buff the bad things and let the good things stay. Don't be lazy and make a fun game. Bye.

Also, the video's made by content creators are interesting, you should check it out.

 

 

[KikuVasNormandy]

Almost MR 29 and I truly don´t get why people is mad with the nerf, we already melt things left and right as its now, and now we are going to be even a bit more nuclear. But I agree, what some of the wrose powers needs a rework.

The only thing I dislike about the last change is the MR, it has to be MR 10 (like the Arca Plasmor and the Ayatan stars autoinstall) or MR12 at least, if not the original MR 15. Its a bit silly that novice players can accidentally destroy their frames before learning the game system but they have to wait until MR10 to quickly equipo the Ayatan stars onto the statues XD

[Pizzarugi]

54 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

you do it, by giving them utility. people want survivability on squishy frames, people want abilities that do good cc, they want abilities that group enemies... but they dont need to be the exact same.

loki has no need for roar, all it will give him, is more weapon damage. which can be borderline pointless. same for ash and ivara. there are frames that will be built with minimal duration or str. meaining, roar will be beyond useless.

that's how you make bad skills better.
air burst could be a smaller, but faster cast version of vortex. it just draws enemies in 5-7m to the same point and keep them there for a short time. but actually drag them into it, instead of gently point them towards it.
that way you could use it on a frame that needs that,

decoy could give a true decoy, that is imortal, and just draws agro from everyone, or you could add a mod that turns it into a secondary health dump, with him absorbing the damage that you receive.

banish could be used on yourself to enter the rift on your own. and that could be used by any invis frame as a good way to avoid damage/energy walls.

utility is how you make something more appealing.

I'm sorry for sounding dismissive here, but I really don't care about frames like Loki or any frame that isn't a nuke. They're not going to become ungodly busted for having something like Roar added to them. They're not the problem with the game right now.

Mesa is. Saryn is. Ember, Volt, and Equinox all are too. And far more often than not, they're not going to take subsumed abilities with utility over a multiplicative damage buff to grossly amplify their nuke abilities. If you don't nerf or just outright remove the damage buffs from the subsumed abilities list, you're going to see a lot more of these frames in your game than you'll ever see another Loki.

This is not to say I disagree with your idea about buffing skills like Decoy to have more utility. However, just buffing these while doing absolutely nothing about DPS buff skills is still going to make meta frames even more busted and even more meta.