The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

24 minutes ago, DeadlySurgeon said:

Because buffing a number of abilities would require an involved design process, since they can't really be tuned with numbers alone. And the point of Helminth seems to have been to just place balancing in the players' hands...

Except now they went and worked against that. Self-defeating, really, in the name of not crowding out said hard-to-tune abilities.

Taking the chance to push my terrible meme:

It's unfortunate that they only have to ask for help tuning the abilities. In the video provided there's a bunch of buffs that could be done with almost no changes to the base ability. 

 

Edit; and yes. That was a funny meme. 

[(PSN)InSaiyanOne]

So let's tell everyone that something is coming up and then update them that it's going to now not be as good as we had hoped it to be. So...now you know that we don't like the way you went with your follow-up decision @[DE]Megan (sorry I'm just tagging you) now follow-up on this decision and now do something better than nerf the ones you see everyone be excited about. Why can't you just delay this rollout and pull better powers from some of the other frames. You see we already ranked them, you see that there's a bunch of super low use ones...so now change them to be better. If you re-decide on the other abilities to be used, then nerfing the ones you have will be more acceptable. ...so just do that. Delay it. Go back through the other frames and pull better options. Make this an actual debatable action. Finally, pushing this further back into the mastery rank is fine with me. you could go as far back as MR10 or MR12 in my opinion.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, MasterBurik said:

"potential to be the overwhelming choice" =/= "potential to make nuke frames broken"

Considering nuke frames are currently the overwhelming choice in public missions, I don't see a problem in anything I've said.

[vanaukas]

I can't understand the rage when people never saw how the abilities were on the first place, how you can nerf something when that something never got out?

Let that people "skip" the update, you'll be seeing them anyway asking for the meta for helminth on the future.

[Keyhound]

26 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm sorry for sounding dismissive here, but I really don't care about frames like Loki or any frame that isn't a nuke. They're not going to become ungodly busted for having something like Roar added to them. They're not the problem with the game right now.

Mesa is. Saryn is. Ember, Volt, and Equinox all are too. And far more often than not, they're not going to take subsumed abilities with utility over a multiplicative damage buff to grossly amplify their nuke abilities. If you don't nerf or just outright remove the damage buffs from the subsumed abilities list, you're going to see a lot more of these frames in your game than you'll ever see another Loki.

This is not to say I disagree with your idea about buffing skills like Decoy to have more utility. However, just buffing these while doing absolutely nothing about DPS buff skills is still going to make meta frames even more busted and even more meta.

you may not care, but people do, its the reason people use diferent frames and diferent builds. saying you dont care about something because its not your thing doesnt invalidate it.
as for mesa or saryn, how is roar going to break them even more than they already are? what do you take out of saryn? mesa will need to swap her 2 for roar, as they are both "buffers". and that goes on.

as for meta frames being busted, guess what, this changes nothing about it, they will still be busted because they are busted already. roar isnt going to make them godlier to any degree that actually matters.

this is like complaining that melees, which can already one shot most enemies, be able to one shot them more...

[MasterBurik]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

Considering nuke frames are currently the overwhelming choice in public missions, I don't see a problem in anything I've said.

Back up your claims. Show me the stats.

[ADDgamer45]

On 2020-08-12 at 10:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

That’s all for now!

Roar - Simplest damage increase. Doesn't matter if it is 10% or 100% it will be a top pick.

Eclipse - Isn't really even a top pick for inconsistency reasons

Warcry - Same as roar 10% or 100% still a damage increase and will still be a top pick for melee

 Dispenser - We already have HUNDREDS of pizzas in our gear why was this nerfed? Thin line between still top and completely useless, there are better abilities for energy and health.

Larva - This ability is just cc grouping you still have to kill the enemies. Ensare actually does this better in certain ways.

Defy - armor can't beat the damage reduction from nullstar and nullstar requires less do build. (why was this nerfed?)

[1OfTheUndying]

I have read many dislike the abilities, and must agree. While I have been farming to remake almost all frames that I don't have just to feed Helminth (to level it up), I have to agree that by far most of the abilities granted are just not worth it. As is, it takes 24 hours to feed the Helminth which I get, it should take some time "for the Helminth to learn that Frame's ability", but it does mean that I have to wait a day per ability I want to add and I was only thinking of using Nova, Protea, Rhino, Trinity, Wukong and possibly Xaku's abilities. Novathe damage reduction could be nice, but will probably pale in comparison to Defy. Rhino buffs others, which is always nice. Wukong's is just great for survival. Trinity's can be helpful here and there. Xaku could be good against Eidolons (I think the Void damage would at least). 

And as for the ones the Helminth itself offers, only these 2 caught my eye.

"MARKED FOR DEATH" “Stun an enemy, next damage you deal to it, will be dealt to all enemies around it."

"REBUILD SHIELDS" "Instantly restore shields."

 

the rest don't seem to work with my play-style, but I would have to try and see.

 

As it was mentioned, the system can be fun and a great way to tweak Frames according to our play-style, but it just feels like 95% of the abilities would need to be changed quite a bit to come close to seeing use. Take Ash's "Shuriken" ability. Looks nice. Could be made to do better damage. But why take that over any of the ones I mentioned above? The only other Frame I could see using "Shuriken" would be maybe Garuda, if it made the enemy bleed. Chroma's will make quite a few complain about how they have to change the color for their fashion frames (I personally don't give a toss). Maybe Ash could use Dessication to set up for his own #4?  

What am I planning? Well, so far Defy replace's Rhino's 1 (I almost never Charge), Xaku's on Volt's 1 (the only Frame I take against Eidolons until I get Volt Prime), either Roar or Defy on Mirage Prime's 4,  possibly Defy on Trinity's 2, Dispensary on Grendel's 3 and either Dispensary or Defy on Loki's 4 (very rarely use it). Most other Frames I either don't or rarely use.  I take Gauss out sometimes for fun, or Limbo for a Rescue mission, but that's it for me.

[Hawk197]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

It doesn't really incentivize the use of CC frames, though.

There's nothing stopping Mesa or Saryn from just outright ignoring the invulnerable enemies and destroying the generator before resuming their nuking. Take a look at Arbitration which does exactly the same thing. 😛

Read the VERY last sentence... I literally addressed that. I could use Shatter Shield to ignore everything... Very last line. The line before that, I said the thing that changes is how much tweaking needs to be done... Reading comprehension... Know what I could tweak to the generator? Giving enemies a damage buff as well, which forces you to control them. Again, this is an idea, not a fully formed mechanic. It's used to convey the reason, not to be included. Crowd control frames have nothing to do, so to fix that you give them something to do. Control enemies so someone can destroy a generator? Great! Group enemies up in a ball to control the field? Great! Right now there is NOTHING for Loki to do.

 

Also, Arbitration Drones don't allow for controlling. It's basically a Nullie that hides behind 30 enemies. Arbitrations is still a dps gamemode.

[---Swaggi---]

When Auto install on Ayatan Sculptures need higher MR than Helminth System xD

The Comment below is more than worth to read buddies xD

So a pretty game changing system will be accessible for already mr 8 Player? Hmm... idk seems legit since ayatan sculptures are defintely more endgame than Helminth system lamo xD

 

Source: 

 

[Sheppard_of_Fire]

Delaying this update is not the answer we all been waiting for this for since Tennocon and i dont feel like going on longer with the same stuff i already have now

these nerfs are silly just like the one to the Xoris ..we get an item that makes 2 frames fun and its crushed ...we get ideas for frame with new things and there crushed 

let it ride and see what happens ill wait for the numbers on these nerfs before i worry about it but if there going to trash all the good stuff i dont care if the segment is rank 5 standing i wont bother with it ill play the new stuff and just deal but with 5 days too go and ive not seen one tad of info that the update is in cert for consoles ....they did say this would be updated for "all"on the 25th well if it dont pass cert that means we get squat in 5 days ....primetime stream is almost on so lets hope for positive update info ..ive got my doubts 

[MSEP1]

On 2020-08-12 at 12:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped
Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Ok... but why though? 

None of these abilities are all that broken. If these are limiting choice, then maybe the other choices should be better. For example, why would anyone use Airburst, Mind Control, Ice Wave, or Banish? 

 

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, Keyhound said:

you may not care, but people do, its the reason people use diferent frames and diferent builds. saying you dont care about something because its not your thing doesnt invalidate it.

Again, frames like Loki aren't the problem.

Doing nothing and giving more power to nuke frames, which are a problem, will become an even worse problem.

2 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

as for mesa or saryn, how is roar going to break them even more than they already are? what do you take out of saryn? mesa will need to swap her 2 for roar, as they are both "buffers". and that goes on.

Roar is a multiplicative damage buff with a +50% base. Almost all nuke frames run 200% power strength at the very least, essentially allowing Roar to double the effectiveness of any ability or attack.

If Saryn has 200% ability strength and presses 4, it deals 300 damage per second up to 6 seconds (more if increasing duration). Roar would boost that to 600 per second. This doesn't take into account the quadrupled damage if Spore was applied to the victim first. 2400 damage per second, applied to everyone 20-30m+ in a radius around her, ignoring LoS is going to make her even more busted than before.

12 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

as for meta frames being busted, guess what, this changes nothing about it, they will still be busted because they are busted already. roar isnt going to make them godlier to any degree that actually matters.

I agree. I think they should be nerfed too.

The answer isn't to just go "#*!% it, nothing we can do, so we might as well break them even more".

13 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

this is like complaining that melees, which can already one shot most enemies, be able to one shot them more...

Get back to me when melees can clear entire rooms of enemies with one attack and maybe ignore LoS. 😛

[Pizzarugi]

11 minutes ago, Hawk197 said:

Giving enemies a damage buff as well, which forces you to control them.

That's also not going to incentivize CC. We still have Operators who can just Void Dash right through the crowd and go straight to the generator.

You'd literally need to make the generator in such a way that it blocks any kind of progression in the mission unless you use CC frames, and that's not going to happen because it would softlock players or teams who don't have one.

[(PSN)Etnoc_Sama]

Wow really disappointed that ya'll nerfed this content before even releasing it, pretty sad that you took the advice of players who dont have the word fun in their vocabulary. was really looking forward to this update and also thought that the mastery requirement was even a great limitation showing that you creating this for endgame now it shows you're catering to the complainers and "Nerf" screamers. this was supposed to give other frames an edge up and making them more viable for endgame material. now its going to make most of us turn away from it saying "why go through all this effort if its not going to bring much help, or even just a negligible amount." please DE for players like us who care about the quality of your content, consider letting your content release before making such drastic changes. or refrain from getting our hopes up at all... I love you guys but these types of bending over backward actions just because a handful of players (who havent even tried the content) are crying over things that dont go the way they want and what are causing alot of us older players to lose faith... I'd love to see things succeed but no matter what you guys do those same players are going to cry no matter what you guys do. keep the abilities that dont need buffs the same.cause after nerfing them from their original value no ones gonna want to use them over just using the frame they come from since its the best option. unfortunately i've lost alot of friends to other games because of these nerfs and what not. i just dont wanna lose anymore players to these situations.. thanks again DE love ya

[iPlagueDoctor]

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Damn it DE. It's always the nerf mentality when it comes to content. You need to get past this. Instead of nerfing the good, appealing abilities, buff the trash and not so appealing abilities. By nerfing, you're reducing the hype for this update that is FIVE days away! Plus, nerfing doesn't add hype to the less appealing or trash abilities. Nerfing makes the good abilities more annoying to deal with on top of a pile of abilities that are still sitting there that are begging for a change or a buff. Come on DE, do not be afraid to give us players compelling stuff.

[DerpyTW]

On 2020-08-19 at 12:11 PM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Give us numbers, NUMBERS I say

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

[Constalation]

On 2020-08-20 at 3:03 AM, [DE]Megan said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

That’s all for now!

Well, I'll tell you now. This is stupid.  "Overwhelming choice"? OF COURSE THEY ARE. They are literally the only abilities worth an ounce of time in-game! No, I'm never going to Pick Decoy over Roar. No matter what you do, even if you nerf Roar into the ground, I will always replace the useless ability in my kit (Which almost every warframe has) with Roar. Why? Because I'm not using the system to get a new ability. I'm going to be using the helminth to get rid of useless abilities, and your nerf won't change that. You can either make the other abilities actually useful, or accept the fact that literally no one will use them.

That, or just make the Helminth system only allow the subsuming of #1/#2 abilities instead.

[Hawk197]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

That's also not going to incentivize CC. We still have Operators who can just Void Dash right through the crowd and go straight to the generator.

You'd literally need to make the generator in such a way that it blocks any kind of progression in the mission unless you use CC frames, and that's not going to happen because it would softlock players or teams who don't have one.

Again, it's an idea meant to convey something. Reading. Comprehension. It'll do you wonders. I don't care about the generator itself. If you got ideas, go for it. This isn't a conversation to get something implemented into the game, it's a conversation on why dps and tanks are more prevalent compared to controls and supports and how to rectify that. The reason: It's faster and easier to kill than control. The solution: Implement factors that force control abilities.

 

Let's take two examples, Roar, your ungabunga ability, and Lull, a control ability. Obviously if you want ungabunga, me no care about you, you go for Roar. Well, how do you solve this control block? You need someone who supports the team. If you're solo, you softlocked yourself like you said, boohoo, cry me a river, you're own fault for not preparing. You're using an ability that just makes number go up, when number is already high enough to kill everything. You were using flamethrowing to kill a gnat, now you're just upgrading to a damn bomb to kill it. So, why not use Lull instead? Number no go up no more, but number was already high enough. Stop trying to get epeen points, because it's not going to do you any favors. The Mirages and Excaliburs aren't more attracted to you just because you killed a Charger with an unneeded 1 million damage you didn't need.

[notHunky]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Nasair]

On 2020-08-12 at 11:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

Well, there goes my hype and hope 😞

[ttylerrocks4u]

I dont get why people are upset. Like no numbers were provided and people are up in arms about it. I will wait till the numbers are revealed to say my opinion. Arguing over these nerfs before the games comes out and then saying by im uninstalling warframe is so childish and so immature my brain cant fathom it. Its gonna be an amazing update and we still are getting all the abilities. God forbid they actually removed a ability people be literally going crazy XD.

Then switching it from 15 to 8 i mean honestly if new players run into this and ruin there own farming and progress contributing resources they need for other things let them. People coming in at 8 does not affect everyone that is complaining and saying this hurts veterans. In no way shape or form does it hurt veterans cause in reality veterans are gonna be the ones who can level this helminth to 10 on the first day cause of the bagillion of resources we have stock piled. 

Also these changes have no bearing on the following:

New player experience

New player opening

New open world

Helminth system as a whole

All these things are still coming i swear you make it sound like something was ripped from it.

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

[Munthrek]

Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment should be 10

[Nasair]

On 2020-08-14 at 3:25 AM, IceBen said:

 

I use Eclipse for the disgusting defensive buff. 1 is still definitely a damage amp, but even then, my use-cases with Mirage don't technically involve a damage buff. I hope augments will work, but it isn't the end of the word if they don't. (for one mod slot the damage would be only slightly better than from Roar)

Augments are stated as working with the ability you apply.

 

[Jarriaga]

What a joke that 2-week-old players get access to the Helminth system before that.