The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Constalation]

4 minutes ago, ttylerrocks4u said:

I dont get why people are upset. Like no numbers were provided and people are up in arms about it. I will wait till the numbers are revealed to say my opinion. Arguing over these nerfs before the games comes out and then saying by im uninstalling warframe is so childish and so immature my brain cant fathom it. Its gonna be an amazing update and we still are getting all the abilities. God forbid they actually removed a ability people be literally going crazy XD.

Then switching it from 15 to 8 i mean honestly if new players run into this and ruin there own farming and progress contributing resources they need for other things let them. People coming in at 8 does not affect everyone that is complaining and saying this hurts veterans. In no way shape or form does it hurt veterans cause in reality veterans are gonna be the ones who can level this helminth to 10 on the first day cause of the bagillion of resources we have stock piled. 

Also these changes have no bearing on the following:

New player experience

New player opening

New open world

Helminth system as a whole

All these things are still coming i swear you make it sound like something was ripped from it.

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

I'm mad because DE made an amatuer mistake that even I could see and decided to bandaid fix it. Literally anyone would have noticed that Roar and Eclipse were going to be top picks, and probably wren't good picks to begin with for the Helminth. Yet here we are, watching it get nerfed. DE applying a bandaid instead of improving the situation, like augments(Which in a multitude of situations shoud literally just be part of the core ability instead of taking a modslot). They are just making it worse for everyone instead of fixing the source of the problem. That being half the other options are actually useless and the other half are "for fun" abilities that are questionable at best.

[PalaceOfStars]

It takes truly adorable levels of commitment to parroting your favorite outrage merchant content creator's tirade big brain energy of the week to miss the point that if the very concept of a nerf to 6 abilities in a pool of 52 destroys your interest in an entire system... you have thusly proven the point.

So here's this paper boat of a couple more-nuanced impressions. Watch as it sinks pointlessly beneath the tempest of these salty seas.

1. Yeah, these nerfs are entirely justified. I'm still really glad we set down the path of including some of these more meta options into the system and I hope that over some iteration we'll figure out how to make these Infusions all have a compelling time and place to bring them out.
2. I think a carrot would have been a good idea to include with this stick, all told. Scooping up a few of those abilities no one was using or talking about to give them a buff only within the Infusion system to help take some of the edge off without risking messing with the original Frame's balance. These abilities were never built with the consideration that they'd exist distinctly on their own (looking at Limbo over there). So having some bandaids to help make them all valuable contributions to the pool makes sense.
3. I'm happy to see the segment is available at Rank 3! This feels right. You're invested into Deimos by then and can engage the Infested mechanics while still digging into some more Infested progression.
4. MR 8 feels a little low, looking back on my own progression experience. Something more in the neighborhood of 12 feels like about where I had the resources available to really consider melting entire Warframes and upending their inherent ability synergy. Not to mention the point at which I could divert my excess resources into something other than weapon and Frame progression.
5. Speaking less about these changes but more about the context of the system in Warframe today. I'm sure it's obvious to you guys that Warframe's mathematics don't fully support the level of creativity offered with this system. I hope that the pressure this system puts on selection, where today CC and mobility go to the wayside of bigger DPS/EHP number, necessitates some innovation in how we engage enemies within Warframe.

Take care, strange traveler who is reading my post on page one-hundred-and-WAAAAAAAGH of the thread, and I'm excited to see this patch next week!

[Saravind]

5 minutes ago, ttylerrocks4u said:

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

i would like to agree but this is meant to release across all platforms 25th no way they going to change too much when consoles need to be sent in for certification

[Constalation]

Just now, PalaceOfStars said:

It takes truly adorable levels of commitment to parroting your favorite outrage merchant content creator's tirade big brain energy of the week to miss the point that if the very concept of a nerf to 6 abilities in a pool of 52 destroys your interest in an entire system... you have thusly proven the point.

So here's this paper boat of a couple more-nuanced impressions. Watch as it sinks pointlessly beneath the tempest of these salty seas.

1. Yeah, these nerfs are entirely justified. I'm still really glad we set down the path of including some of these more meta options into the system and I hope that over some iteration we'll figure out how to make these Infusions all have a compelling time and place to bring them out.
2. I think a carrot would have been a good idea to include with this stick, all told. Scooping up a few of those abilities no one was using or talking about to give them a buff only within the Infusion system to help take some of the edge off without risking messing with the original Frame's balance. These abilities were never built with the consideration that they'd exist distinctly on their own (looking at Limbo over there). So having some bandaids to help make them all valuable contributions to the pool makes sense.
3. I'm happy to see the segment is available at Rank 3! This feels right. You're invested into Deimos by then and can engage the Infested mechanics while still digging into some more Infested progression.
4. MR 8 feels a little low, looking back on my own progression experience. Something more in the neighborhood of 12 feels like about where I had the resources available to really consider melting entire Warframes and upending their inherent ability synergy. Not to mention the point at which I could divert my excess resources into something other than weapon and Frame progression.
5. Speaking less about these changes but more about the context of the system in Warframe today. I'm sure it's obvious to you guys that Warframe's mathematics don't fully support the level of creativity offered with this system. I hope that the pressure this system puts on selection, where today CC and mobility go to the wayside of bigger DPS/EHP number, necessitates some innovation in how we engage enemies within Warframe.

Take care, strange traveler who is reading my post on page one-hundred-and-WAAAAAAAGH of the thread, and I'm excited to see this patch next week!

Or you know, they could have just used some common sense.... like not putting obviously top pick abilities in the helminth system to begin with.... You know, abilities like ROAR. Now we get a system with completely arbitrary and unexplained nerfs to abilities. I'd rather not have to remember that half the abilities I see are actually nerfed by X% or Xs duration every single time I look at the bloody thing.

[Ordo_Umbra]

It seems to me that one serious side-effect that this 'nerf' will also have is one of suppressing player feedback. In the year and a half I've been playing, I cannot recount the number of times [DE] Rebecca has trotted out some graph or statistics about player usage of a frame or ability or game mechanics and then announced an imposed limitation on whatever it is. As an employee of a software developer myself, I know the need to modify your product to improve it overall sometimes requires a limit or negative change made to improve it overall, so I tend to give DE some latitude on this, but it seems that their approach is always to limit or restrict, never to look at the bigger picture.  By making it obvious that they watch what people are saying and it enough people like a thing, it might get the 'nerf-wrench', they are going to limit the actual feedback they get, good or bad.

Additionally, this will not make people use the other less-enjoyable abilities. It will just see people using these 6 abilities with the sour memory of what DE did and what could have been. What makes this even worse is the reason. I could understand a little more if they said 'these six as-is will make certain frame overpowered or diminish the usefulness of this frame.' That's legitimate play balance. Instead, this is essentially 'we see players will really like these and use them more than the others so we're going to make them less appealing'. That's like making the best tasting chocolate ice cream in the world but because you know people will like it more, you stick some dog turds in there for good measure. Way to sabotage your own product.

Make the vanilla as tasty as the chocolate and stopped putting poo in the bowl. DE.

[(XBOX)ONI Prowess]

i will NEVER use the worst.

i simply will not use the system.

please give us more options, rather then nerfing the only options we have. 

[iSiawPrime]

1 minute ago, PalaceOfStars said:

It takes truly adorable levels of commitment to parroting your favorite outrage merchant content creator's tirade big brain energy of the week to miss the point that if the very concept of a nerf to 6 abilities in a pool of 52 destroys your interest in an entire system... you have thusly proven the point.

There are about 12-15 “good abilities” on the Helminth list, and 6 of them are going to have added rules (nerfs) while we were promised buffs on the “bad” ones.

The whole idea of this system is to replace a bad ability with a good one, but if they added rules before release, what will happen AFTER? Do we have to replace a bad ability with another bad ability so that DE is happy? Do we have to replace Molt with Decoy then?

Also you don’t need to suck up to DE on anything they do, they stopped being the “friendly low employee count company” YEARS AGO.

[1st-1]

il y a 4 minutes, ttylerrocks4u a dit :

I dont get why people are upset. Like no numbers were provided and people are up in arms about it. I will wait till the numbers are revealed to say my opinion. Arguing over these nerfs before the games comes out and then saying by im uninstalling warframe is so childish and so immature my brain cant fathom it. Its gonna be an amazing update and we still are getting all the abilities. God forbid they actually removed a ability people be literally going crazy XD.

Then switching it from 15 to 8 i mean honestly if new players run into this and ruin there own farming and progress contributing resources they need for other things let them. People coming in at 8 does not affect everyone that is complaining and saying this hurts veterans. In no way shape or form does it hurt veterans cause in reality veterans are gonna be the ones who can level this helminth to 10 on the first day cause of the bagillion of resources we have stock piled. 

Also these changes have no bearing on the following:

New player experience

New player opening

New open world

Helminth system as a whole

All these things are still coming i swear you make it sound like something was ripped from it.

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

Maybe because DE said they won't change anything and they finally do ? maybe because they said it was for "very experienced players" when in the end,the more we get to know, the more it sounds like one more stupid thing that noobs will be able to do and that we probably won't play after a week or two because it will probably be easy content for noobs & useless rewards ? and because they allow low MR to use this content, be ready to see all of them cry about this content being to hard and the upcoming nerf about it, making it so easy that even a MR2 with 2hours of playing will be allow to do one hand in his back, remember railjack ? have you forgot about fortuna ? the nerfs of arbitration ? the scarlet spear ?

All that content made easy for those new players, and i personnaly don't want more fastfood content to please those noobs/new players

its ppl like you that don't see the problem & let them do it like it was normal that make this game bad.

They knew that these abilities were going to be overpowered compared to all the others, yet, they still add them and instead of reworking/buffing the others, they nerf the only good ones, OH.. only 5 days left.. well, maybe they should've thought about it BEFORE doing it ? like ppl usually do..

 

"its gonna be an amazing update".. so far, we don't know what the content in their new open world will be, except more reputation grind et probably more bounties.. yay.. what an amazing update.

[Methanoid]

why?  less work involved.

[OnePunchJuke]

On 2020-08-19 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Megan said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

That’s all for now!

Logged in an making what might be my first post here because of how much I disagree with this. Thanks for taking the excitement I had for the update and shooting it in the face with this. Instead of tweaking or improving some of the horrible abilities from other warframes you nerf all of the ones that can actually be useful. This DOES NOT make options like Frost Wave more enticing. Either the nerf numbers aren't low enough to make a difference - in which case these changes do nothing to change these from being the overwhelming choice - or you nerf them so hard that the only other options that are left to us are the trash ones.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

K.

[SmokinDice]

I really want to make this a seperat topic and feedback, as this not only has something to do with the upcoming changes, but gameplay experience in general from over 2800 hours of warframe..

To me, this system as whole is a very risky decision to implement and will undoubtely take away from warframes identities (in some cases their entire kit)

BUT it offered ONE great chance for the game to finally shine a light on a MAJOR issue in this game, which is gameplay experience, and more speficically warframe powerfantasy and their gameplay loop.

while SO many warframes are amazing and well designed and offer a kit to serve almost all situations, some warframe just lack CRUTIAL abilities to either survive, or effectifly tackle endgame content and enemys. or are just simply outdated and ignored for years! some have never been touched ever since their inception.

 

This update was a chance for YOU, DE, to finally take a look at very poor and outdated, unused abilities, and finally give them some love, some attention, some much desired overhaul.

you somewhat promised "buffs" to some lack luster abilities.. and what we got with this was a health regen to trinity'S 1 and a suck mode to zephyrs airburst.. is this your undersatnding of buffing less desirable choices? is this really all your efforts to make a great game, is that all you can come up with?

why is mind control still a thing, we begged for a change for years.. why is icewave still a thing.. what is with other abilities not on this list? has any nekros ever used his 1? what even is decoy?

this was the first ever great and grand opportunity to finally give players like me, that really only care for abilities, warframe syngergy and compelling gameplay experiences a chance to at least build their own frame and fill gaps in kits with other more useful stuff, which to an extend is achieved but is a mere shadow of what it could have been.

 

 

 

Valkyr is a ONE BUTTON warframe.. DE, you must have data on players using abilitys.. valkyrs whole existence is her warcry, and your solution should not and never be to then just take this away from here and giving her literally nothing in return,.. why is this not a signal to you to take a closer look at her again, revert some changes to her hysteria that where maybe somewhat necesarry in the past but are completly irrelevant nowadays, make her 1 and 2 actually work with her kit..

finally look at banshee and give her some survivability on her own.. look at loki and his 2 buttons he can press..why not give him something more meaningful for his 1 and 3? or make them actually interesting and compelling.

 

what instead you have done is mixing very strong abilities that are essential and core to some frames, and mix it with some totally outdated terrible abilites, and yet you wonder when people are outragous.. I was and am furious too.. what did you expect from giving away a whole warframes kit to everyone? did you expect it to be balanced, fair, and fun all at the same time? you should also learn to live with decision you make and accept them for what they are.. I love you so much as a company, but some of these decision they really hurt, because it feels like you dont even know us. it was the same with xoris.. it did literally nothing to change anything, the builds already existed and even stronger at that, it was just harder to maintain and therefore clunky and less fun to some, you gave us CONVENIENCE, which this system is too, and yet you immediatly want to take away from it before even realizing where the real problems lie..

 

which is abilities with no soul, no identity, warframe kits that are bare and feel uncomplete..

 

thank you for your attention..

[Methanoid]

they predictably did it so the system is open to a bigger playerbase, they have had several instances already where they release something and barely anybody cared, railjack being a prime example, it released and a pathetic amount of players bothered with it at the beginning, their second knee-jerk reaction to such a thing is typically to try and force people to use whatever they released by means of an event, quest or the likes that has their unpopular addition as a forced requirement.

[Zelmen]

15 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What a joke that 2-week-old players get access to the Helminth system before that.

MR is only gated by daily resets. So MR 8 can be done in 8-9 IRL days and MR10 can be done in 10-11 IRL days. Two weeks is 14 days and I know pre MR14 I had backlogged MR points to do one a day. While I agree its should be the same or higher. 2 weeks is more than enough time to hit either casually

[CRCGamer]

Really? You feel free to nerf the generic safe picks that are highly rated because they can fit everywhere and are actually useful and completely ignore the bottom rung picks that are legitimate investment traps because they are so horrifically bad. Bravo, great way to make me not feel like touching this entire system for at least six months to see how much murky bog water it turns out to be. Because obviously it takes on average that long for the balance/design team to pull their heads out of the sand and actually *fix* things the right way instead of taking the stupidly fast and lazy method of just nerf whatever is the projected top picks.

Nerfing the meta picks just results in other meta picks being the top picks until nothing is worthwhile and you'd have been better off not even making the system in the first place. If you want players to not gravitate towards a select subset of generally applicable powers you need there to be more actual choices that are hard decisions. Stuff like Nyx's Mind Control that gets enormous complaints because of newer players not realizing they are blocking the wave from progressing and has no reasonable scaling are not going to be a compelling choice ever.

Want to restore community trust? Retract the reactionary knee jerk nerfs and commit to improving or replacing two or three of the under-performing options every couple weeks for at least the next half year. That way you end up with a system people actually like using. And along the way you *should* be able to double dip on improving older frames so they are more competitive when compared to modern releases. And therefore have less abilities that are outright considered a dead slot in the first place!

[g0ldhaze]

Please don't nerf, buff instead. The reason I play Warframe is because of all the choice and freedom I have to experiment with options. When you nerf (outside of removing broken mechanisms), you are removing options, which really hurts my excitement for the game. It's better to make other options more appealing; when i'm excited and overwhelmed with lots of good choices i'm more compelled to invest time (and money) in the game so I can explore all the different combinations and possible interactions.

 

 

[DeadlySurgeon]

[Methanoid]

if someone has the choice of a heavily nerfed Rhino Roar or fitting a bog standard Decoy or other dull/pathetic ability, its pretty obvious your still going to take the nerfed but still godlike abilities, there simply isnt any real choice involved.

[lukasystem]

In Steam forums I envisioned something like this:

• Starting from MR 15 requirement and Abilities as is -> Helminth go-to abilities are too much preferred, so they "nerf" them a wee bit after two or so weeks from release -> reduce the MR to 10 because 15 is too much and new players crying (personally I couldn't care less about it, but It would really annoy me to still read people complaining about requirements, even after getting tweaked down like happened with Railjack).

Instead, It went down like this:

• DE predicts preferred abilities should be nerfed (no numbers specified, so there's a little bit of hope) a week before release, in order to promote build variety, surely there are many people who'd prefer Decoy, Mind Control, Spectrorage, Quiver, etc after this changes. Also reduce the MR to 8, so that new players can say "what? gotta farm that again?" and complain about the "doubled grind" in a matter of two weeks from finishing "new player experience".

This was to be expected, but not expected....

[Nazuud]

Please DE watch creator videos and listen. please for the love of god just listen.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

if someone has the choice of a heavily nerfed Rhino Roar or fitting a bog standard Decoy or other dull/pathetic ability, its pretty obvious your still going to take the nerfed but still godlike abilities, there simply isnt any real choice involved.

If you're a person with no imagination, yes. 

People that actually know what they're doing won't even be using roar. 

[Methanoid]

Just now, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

If you're a person with no imagination, yes. 

People that actually know what they're doing won't even be using roar. 

gl with that prediction.

[Professor_Aggressor]

I don't understand the thought process behind nerfing the options that were appealing to the community in the interest of increasing the number of appealing options.  The first frame that I will be subsuming is still going to be Rhino, because the other options just don't appeal to me.  I'm still going to subsume a Valkyr, a Nidus, a Protea, and a Mirage.  I'm still going to be taking these abilities over the others, because the others aren't very good. 

I'm not subsuming Zephyr, because Airburst is still a joke.  Decoy is useless, Mind Control is similarly useless, Condemn doesn't fit well on any of my builds, Tempest Barrage doesn't work well in high level content, even with the augment, and if I took a picture every time Spectrorage didn't do anything, I could make a collage of every time I cast Spectrorage.  

The solution is not to bring down the options that are good in the interest of choice.  The solution is to uplift the abilities that aren't in the limelight, or replace them with other abilities from those warframes.  Even with the nerfs to the good abilities, they're still going to be what we all use, if we use them at all.

[TheKazz91]

DE I respect that you make an effort to pay attention to the community and respond to trends and feedback that come from the community. However the manner that you have chosen to respond in this instance is completely and utterly the wrong decision. You announced this system and people got excited at the idea of swapping out the bad abilities on all their Warframes with any decent ability. Then you announced the actual list of abilities you're going to add into this system. Then we all got even more excited because not only were there some decent abilities on there there were actually GOOD dare I say even GREAT abilities on that list. Then you come in and say you're just straight up nerfing all those good/great abilities BEFORE IT EVEN GOES LIVE. WHY?!

Let me make this clear Roar IS the best ability on the list for the largest number of Warframes and undoubtedly the one that would be put on the largest number of Warframes. 100% that is true. That doesn't mean that Roar is stupid op and broken. It means it was the best CHOICE of the limited CHOICES YOU GAVE US. If you think its going to be a problem why didn't you pick charge instead of Roar? Why did you pick objectively the worst abilities for 80% of warframes to donate to helminth and really good abilities on 4 of them? If we can get Roar why aren't other warframes giving better abilities? Again the other solution which IMO would still be a better option is to just change those abilities give us Charge instead of Roar that would be a better solution than arbitrarily just nerfing Roar into the ground so that it is no longer any more useful than anything else. 

You have literally taken something that a lot players were excited about and just said "NO you can't have fun while playing our game" like who decided this was the course to take on this issue? If you think Roar will be the overwhelming choice (which I don't disagree with) then either don't give us that choice in the first place OR make the opportunity cost of that choice higher by giving us other good choices. It is really that simple if the ability every Warframe was giving to the system was as good a Roar then Roar wouldn't be hands down the top pick. You gave us an objectively good choice surrounded by a whole lot of objectively bad choices and then were surprised that people were most excited about the handful of good choices.

Again I appreciate that you pay attention but your decision making in this instance is questionable at a bets and self destructive at worst. 

As a side note you lowered the MR requirement from 15 to 8 and also claimed you don't allow new players to access the system. I can't speak for everyone but personally I reached MR 8 after less than 2 weeks of starting Warframe before I unlocked every planet much less completed the Star Chart, completed the Second Dream, knew about corrupted mods, or even had a super solid grasp on fundamental systems of the progression like why I would ever want to forma something. So when you say you're lowering access to MR 8 you ARE giving this system to new players. Anything lower than MR 12 and you are giving this to new players that likely don't understand every other system in Warframe let alone this which is potentially one of the most complex systems to be added.

[Har-Vestor]

This is beyond dense. Buff the S#&$ stuff instead of nerfing the only good things left for once, how about that? THIS is the kind of mentality that drives your playerbase away. Why would I be inclined to cash out for platinum when you never bother adding anything without being 100% sure it was drained of possible fun beforehand?