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On 2020-08-12 at 10:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped


Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.


PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

That’s all for now!

Roar - Simplest damage increase. Doesn't matter if it is 10% or 100% it will be a top pick.

Eclipse - Isn't really even a top pick for inconsistency reasons

Warcry - Same as roar 10% or 100% still a damage increase and will still be a top pick for melee

 Dispenser - We already have HUNDREDS of pizzas in our gear why was this nerfed? Thin line between still top and completely useless, there are better abilities for energy and health.

Larva - This ability is just cc grouping you still have to kill the enemies. Ensare actually does this better in certain ways.

Defy - armor can't beat the damage reduction from nullstar and nullstar requires less do build. (why was this nerfed?)

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I have read many dislike the abilities, and must agree. While I have been farming to remake almost all frames that I don't have just to feed Helminth (to level it up), I have to agree that by far most of the abilities granted are just not worth it. As is, it takes 24 hours to feed the Helminth which I get, it should take some time "for the Helminth to learn that Frame's ability", but it does mean that I have to wait a day per ability I want to add and I was only thinking of using Nova, Protea, Rhino, Trinity, Wukong and possibly Xaku's abilities. Novathe damage reduction could be nice, but will probably pale in comparison to Defy. Rhino buffs others, which is always nice. Wukong's is just great for survival. Trinity's can be helpful here and there. Xaku could be good against Eidolons (I think the Void damage would at least). 

And as for the ones the Helminth itself offers, only these 2 caught my eye.

"MARKED FOR DEATH" “Stun an enemy, next damage you deal to it, will be dealt to all enemies around it."

"REBUILD SHIELDS" "Instantly restore shields."

 

the rest don't seem to work with my play-style, but I would have to try and see.

 

As it was mentioned, the system can be fun and a great way to tweak Frames according to our play-style, but it just feels like 95% of the abilities would need to be changed quite a bit to come close to seeing use. Take Ash's "Shuriken" ability. Looks nice. Could be made to do better damage. But why take that over any of the ones I mentioned above? The only other Frame I could see using "Shuriken" would be maybe Garuda, if it made the enemy bleed. Chroma's will make quite a few complain about how they have to change the color for their fashion frames (I personally don't give a toss). Maybe Ash could use Dessication to set up for his own #4?  

What am I planning? Well, so far Defy replace's Rhino's 1 (I almost never Charge), Xaku's on Volt's 1 (the only Frame I take against Eidolons until I get Volt Prime), either Roar or Defy on Mirage Prime's 4,  possibly Defy on Trinity's 2, Dispensary on Grendel's 3 and either Dispensary or Defy on Loki's 4 (very rarely use it). Most other Frames I either don't or rarely use.  I take Gauss out sometimes for fun, or Limbo for a Rescue mission, but that's it for me.

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1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

It doesn't really incentivize the use of CC frames, though.

There's nothing stopping Mesa or Saryn from just outright ignoring the invulnerable enemies and destroying the generator before resuming their nuking. Take a look at Arbitration which does exactly the same thing. 😛

Read the VERY last sentence... I literally addressed that. I could use Shatter Shield to ignore everything... Very last line. The line before that, I said the thing that changes is how much tweaking needs to be done... Reading comprehension... Know what I could tweak to the generator? Giving enemies a damage buff as well, which forces you to control them. Again, this is an idea, not a fully formed mechanic. It's used to convey the reason, not to be included. Crowd control frames have nothing to do, so to fix that you give them something to do. Control enemies so someone can destroy a generator? Great! Group enemies up in a ball to control the field? Great! Right now there is NOTHING for Loki to do.

 

Also, Arbitration Drones don't allow for controlling. It's basically a Nullie that hides behind 30 enemies. Arbitrations is still a dps gamemode.

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When Auto install on Ayatan Sculptures need higher MR than Helminth System xD

The Comment below is more than worth to read buddies xD

So a pretty game changing system will be accessible for already mr 8 Player? Hmm... idk seems legit since ayatan sculptures are defintely more endgame than Helminth system lamo xD

 

VU7mERT.png

Source: 

 

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Delaying this update is not the answer we all been waiting for this for since Tennocon and i dont feel like going on longer with the same stuff i already have now

these nerfs are silly just like the one to the Xoris ..we get an item that makes 2 frames fun and its crushed ...we get ideas for frame with new things and there crushed 

let it ride and see what happens ill wait for the numbers on these nerfs before i worry about it but if there going to trash all the good stuff i dont care if the segment is rank 5 standing i wont bother with it ill play the new stuff and just deal but with 5 days too go and ive not seen one tad of info that the update is in cert for consoles ....they did say this would be updated for "all"on the 25th well if it dont pass cert that means we get squat in 5 days ....primetime stream is almost on so lets hope for positive update info ..ive got my doubts 

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On 2020-08-12 at 12:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped
Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Ok... but why though? 

None of these abilities are all that broken. If these are limiting choice, then maybe the other choices should be better. For example, why would anyone use Airburst, Mind Control, Ice Wave, or Banish? 

 

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1 minute ago, Keyhound said:

you may not care, but people do, its the reason people use diferent frames and diferent builds. saying you dont care about something because its not your thing doesnt invalidate it.

Again, frames like Loki aren't the problem.

Doing nothing and giving more power to nuke frames, which are a problem, will become an even worse problem.

2 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

as for mesa or saryn, how is roar going to break them even more than they already are? what do you take out of saryn? mesa will need to swap her 2 for roar, as they are both "buffers". and that goes on.

Roar is a multiplicative damage buff with a +50% base. Almost all nuke frames run 200% power strength at the very least, essentially allowing Roar to double the effectiveness of any ability or attack.

If Saryn has 200% ability strength and presses 4, it deals 300 damage per second up to 6 seconds (more if increasing duration). Roar would boost that to 600 per second. This doesn't take into account the quadrupled damage if Spore was applied to the victim first. 2400 damage per second, applied to everyone 20-30m+ in a radius around her, ignoring LoS is going to make her even more busted than before.

12 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

as for meta frames being busted, guess what, this changes nothing about it, they will still be busted because they are busted already. roar isnt going to make them godlier to any degree that actually matters.

I agree. I think they should be nerfed too.

The answer isn't to just go "#*!% it, nothing we can do, so we might as well break them even more".

13 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

this is like complaining that melees, which can already one shot most enemies, be able to one shot them more...

Get back to me when melees can clear entire rooms of enemies with one attack and maybe ignore LoS. 😛

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11 minutes ago, Hawk197 said:

Giving enemies a damage buff as well, which forces you to control them.

That's also not going to incentivize CC. We still have Operators who can just Void Dash right through the crowd and go straight to the generator.

You'd literally need to make the generator in such a way that it blocks any kind of progression in the mission unless you use CC frames, and that's not going to happen because it would softlock players or teams who don't have one.

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Wow really disappointed that ya'll nerfed this content before even releasing it, pretty sad that you took the advice of players who dont have the word fun in their vocabulary. was really looking forward to this update and also thought that the mastery requirement was even a great limitation showing that you creating this for endgame now it shows you're catering to the complainers and "Nerf" screamers. this was supposed to give other frames an edge up and making them more viable for endgame material. now its going to make most of us turn away from it saying "why go through all this effort if its not going to bring much help, or even just a negligible amount." please DE for players like us who care about the quality of your content, consider letting your content release before making such drastic changes. or refrain from getting our hopes up at all... I love you guys but these types of bending over backward actions just because a handful of players (who havent even tried the content) are crying over things that dont go the way they want and what are causing alot of us older players to lose faith... I'd love to see things succeed but no matter what you guys do those same players are going to cry no matter what you guys do. keep the abilities that dont need buffs the same.cause after nerfing them from their original value no ones gonna want to use them over just using the frame they come from since its the best option. unfortunately i've lost alot of friends to other games because of these nerfs and what not. i just dont wanna lose anymore players to these situations.. thanks again DE love ya

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On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

Damn it DE. It's always the nerf mentality when it comes to content. You need to get past this. Instead of nerfing the good, appealing abilities, buff the trash and not so appealing abilities. By nerfing, you're reducing the hype for this update that is FIVE days away! Plus, nerfing doesn't add hype to the less appealing or trash abilities. Nerfing makes the good abilities more annoying to deal with on top of a pile of abilities that are still sitting there that are begging for a change or a buff. Come on DE, do not be afraid to give us players compelling stuff.

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On 2020-08-20 at 3:03 AM, [DE]Megan said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped


Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.


PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

That’s all for now!

Well, I'll tell you now. This is stupid.  "Overwhelming choice"? OF COURSE THEY ARE. They are literally the only abilities worth an ounce of time in-game! No, I'm never going to Pick Decoy over Roar. No matter what you do, even if you nerf Roar into the ground, I will always replace the useless ability in my kit (Which almost every warframe has) with Roar. Why? Because I'm not using the system to get a new ability. I'm going to be using the helminth to get rid of useless abilities, and your nerf won't change that. You can either make the other abilities actually useful, or accept the fact that literally no one will use them.

That, or just make the Helminth system only allow the subsuming of #1/#2 abilities instead.

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Just now, Pizzarugi said:

That's also not going to incentivize CC. We still have Operators who can just Void Dash right through the crowd and go straight to the generator.

You'd literally need to make the generator in such a way that it blocks any kind of progression in the mission unless you use CC frames, and that's not going to happen because it would softlock players or teams who don't have one.

Again, it's an idea meant to convey something. Reading. Comprehension. It'll do you wonders. I don't care about the generator itself. If you got ideas, go for it. This isn't a conversation to get something implemented into the game, it's a conversation on why dps and tanks are more prevalent compared to controls and supports and how to rectify that. The reason: It's faster and easier to kill than control. The solution: Implement factors that force control abilities.

 

Let's take two examples, Roar, your ungabunga ability, and Lull, a control ability. Obviously if you want ungabunga, me no care about you, you go for Roar. Well, how do you solve this control block? You need someone who supports the team. If you're solo, you softlocked yourself like you said, boohoo, cry me a river, you're own fault for not preparing. You're using an ability that just makes number go up, when number is already high enough to kill everything. You were using flamethrowing to kill a gnat, now you're just upgrading to a damn bomb to kill it. So, why not use Lull instead? Number no go up no more, but number was already high enough. Stop trying to get epeen points, because it's not going to do you any favors. The Mirages and Excaliburs aren't more attracted to you just because you killed a Charger with an unneeded 1 million damage you didn't need.

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On 2020-08-12 at 11:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped


Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.


PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

Well, there goes my hype and hope 😞

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I dont get why people are upset. Like no numbers were provided and people are up in arms about it. I will wait till the numbers are revealed to say my opinion. Arguing over these nerfs before the games comes out and then saying by im uninstalling warframe is so childish and so immature my brain cant fathom it. Its gonna be an amazing update and we still are getting all the abilities. God forbid they actually removed a ability people be literally going crazy XD.

Then switching it from 15 to 8 i mean honestly if new players run into this and ruin there own farming and progress contributing resources they need for other things let them. People coming in at 8 does not affect everyone that is complaining and saying this hurts veterans. In no way shape or form does it hurt veterans cause in reality veterans are gonna be the ones who can level this helminth to 10 on the first day cause of the bagillion of resources we have stock piled. 

Also these changes have no bearing on the following:

New player experience

New player opening

New open world

Helminth system as a whole

All these things are still coming i swear you make it sound like something was ripped from it.

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

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On 2020-08-14 at 3:25 AM, IceBen said:

 

I use Eclipse for the disgusting defensive buff. 1 is still definitely a damage amp, but even then, my use-cases with Mirage don't technically involve a damage buff. I hope augments will work, but it isn't the end of the word if they don't. (for one mod slot the damage would be only slightly better than from Roar)

Augments are stated as working with the ability you apply.

 

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4 minutes ago, ttylerrocks4u said:

I dont get why people are upset. Like no numbers were provided and people are up in arms about it. I will wait till the numbers are revealed to say my opinion. Arguing over these nerfs before the games comes out and then saying by im uninstalling warframe is so childish and so immature my brain cant fathom it. Its gonna be an amazing update and we still are getting all the abilities. God forbid they actually removed a ability people be literally going crazy XD.

Then switching it from 15 to 8 i mean honestly if new players run into this and ruin there own farming and progress contributing resources they need for other things let them. People coming in at 8 does not affect everyone that is complaining and saying this hurts veterans. In no way shape or form does it hurt veterans cause in reality veterans are gonna be the ones who can level this helminth to 10 on the first day cause of the bagillion of resources we have stock piled. 

Also these changes have no bearing on the following:

New player experience

New player opening

New open world

Helminth system as a whole

All these things are still coming i swear you make it sound like something was ripped from it.

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

I'm mad because DE made an amatuer mistake that even I could see and decided to bandaid fix it. Literally anyone would have noticed that Roar and Eclipse were going to be top picks, and probably wren't good picks to begin with for the Helminth. Yet here we are, watching it get nerfed. DE applying a bandaid instead of improving the situation, like augments(Which in a multitude of situations shoud literally just be part of the core ability instead of taking a modslot). They are just making it worse for everyone instead of fixing the source of the problem. That being half the other options are actually useless and the other half are "for fun" abilities that are questionable at best.

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It takes truly adorable levels of commitment to parroting your favorite outrage merchant content creator's tirade big brain energy of the week to miss the point that if the very concept of a nerf to 6 abilities in a pool of 52 destroys your interest in an entire system... you have thusly proven the point.

So here's this paper boat of a couple more-nuanced impressions. Watch as it sinks pointlessly beneath the tempest of these salty seas.

  1. Yeah, these nerfs are entirely justified. I'm still really glad we set down the path of including some of these more meta options into the system and I hope that over some iteration we'll figure out how to make these Infusions all have a compelling time and place to bring them out.
  2. I think a carrot would have been a good idea to include with this stick, all told. Scooping up a few of those abilities no one was using or talking about to give them a buff only within the Infusion system to help take some of the edge off without risking messing with the original Frame's balance. These abilities were never built with the consideration that they'd exist distinctly on their own (looking at Limbo over there). So having some bandaids to help make them all valuable contributions to the pool makes sense.
  3. I'm happy to see the segment is available at Rank 3! This feels right. You're invested into Deimos by then and can engage the Infested mechanics while still digging into some more Infested progression.
  4. MR 8 feels a little low, looking back on my own progression experience. Something more in the neighborhood of 12 feels like about where I had the resources available to really consider melting entire Warframes and upending their inherent ability synergy. Not to mention the point at which I could divert my excess resources into something other than weapon and Frame progression.
  5. Speaking less about these changes but more about the context of the system in Warframe today. I'm sure it's obvious to you guys that Warframe's mathematics don't fully support the level of creativity offered with this system. I hope that the pressure this system puts on selection, where today CC and mobility go to the wayside of bigger DPS/EHP number, necessitates some innovation in how we engage enemies within Warframe.

Take care, strange traveler who is reading my post on page one-hundred-and-WAAAAAAAGH of the thread, and I'm excited to see this patch next week!

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5 minutes ago, ttylerrocks4u said:

Also I agree with the buffing of bad abilities and they just might you have to remember there are still 5 days left till its here.

i would like to agree but this is meant to release across all platforms 25th no way they going to change too much when consoles need to be sent in for certification

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Just now, PalaceOfStars said:

It takes truly adorable levels of commitment to parroting your favorite outrage merchant content creator's tirade big brain energy of the week to miss the point that if the very concept of a nerf to 6 abilities in a pool of 52 destroys your interest in an entire system... you have thusly proven the point.

So here's this paper boat of a couple more-nuanced impressions. Watch as it sinks pointlessly beneath the tempest of these salty seas.

  1. Yeah, these nerfs are entirely justified. I'm still really glad we set down the path of including some of these more meta options into the system and I hope that over some iteration we'll figure out how to make these Infusions all have a compelling time and place to bring them out.
  2. I think a carrot would have been a good idea to include with this stick, all told. Scooping up a few of those abilities no one was using or talking about to give them a buff only within the Infusion system to help take some of the edge off without risking messing with the original Frame's balance. These abilities were never built with the consideration that they'd exist distinctly on their own (looking at Limbo over there). So having some bandaids to help make them all valuable contributions to the pool makes sense.
  3. I'm happy to see the segment is available at Rank 3! This feels right. You're invested into Deimos by then and can engage the Infested mechanics while still digging into some more Infested progression.
  4. MR 8 feels a little low, looking back on my own progression experience. Something more in the neighborhood of 12 feels like about where I had the resources available to really consider melting entire Warframes and upending their inherent ability synergy. Not to mention the point at which I could divert my excess resources into something other than weapon and Frame progression.
  5. Speaking less about these changes but more about the context of the system in Warframe today. I'm sure it's obvious to you guys that Warframe's mathematics don't fully support the level of creativity offered with this system. I hope that the pressure this system puts on selection, where today CC and mobility go to the wayside of bigger DPS/EHP number, necessitates some innovation in how we engage enemies within Warframe.

Take care, strange traveler who is reading my post on page one-hundred-and-WAAAAAAAGH of the thread, and I'm excited to see this patch next week!

Or you know, they could have just used some common sense.... like not putting obviously top pick abilities in the helminth system to begin with.... You know, abilities like ROAR. Now we get a system with completely arbitrary and unexplained nerfs to abilities. I'd rather not have to remember that half the abilities I see are actually nerfed by X% or Xs duration every single time I look at the bloody thing.

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It seems to me that one serious side-effect that this 'nerf' will also have is one of suppressing player feedback. In the year and a half I've been playing, I cannot recount the number of times [DE] Rebecca has trotted out some graph or statistics about player usage of a frame or ability or game mechanics and then announced an imposed limitation on whatever it is. As an employee of a software developer myself, I know the need to modify your product to improve it overall sometimes requires a limit or negative change made to improve it overall, so I tend to give DE some latitude on this, but it seems that their approach is always to limit or restrict, never to look at the bigger picture.  By making it obvious that they watch what people are saying and it enough people like a thing, it might get the 'nerf-wrench', they are going to limit the actual feedback they get, good or bad.

Additionally, this will not make people use the other less-enjoyable abilities. It will just see people using these 6 abilities with the sour memory of what DE did and what could have been. What makes this even worse is the reason. I could understand a little more if they said 'these six as-is will make certain frame overpowered or diminish the usefulness of this frame.' That's legitimate play balance. Instead, this is essentially 'we see players will really like these and use them more than the others so we're going to make them less appealing'. That's like making the best tasting chocolate ice cream in the world but because you know people will like it more, you stick some dog turds in there for good measure. Way to sabotage your own product.

Make the vanilla as tasty as the chocolate and stopped putting poo in the bowl. DE.

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