The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(PSN)Demiigod66]

Everyone wants to pull Roar and Eclipse on everything, Im over here like lets put larva on protea and breach surge on garuda or use Lull on things. to me that seems much more fun tbh.. But each to their own..People are gonna complain about any changes that come out' in the end 

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

I'm going to call this thing that DE keeps doing "The Kronsh Effect." The options to combat a meta is as followed;

Option A would be taking a deep look at why most options aren't being chosen as much, and buff the more uncommon options to be just as good as the popular ones.

Option B would be taking a short glance at why a small handful of options were being chosen more often, and beating their effectiveness on the head with a Kronsh Machete Zaw until they are just as "good" as the rest of the choices.

Because it would be easier, DE decided to make the few great options worse than to make the many poor options better.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

Well this is going to spark a big conflict i mean the update isnt even out yet and de gose and nerfs the abilitys before anyone can play with them and actualy test them out 

This was a major bad idea by de they should have at least had actual players test it on the live build before they reuin the fun its realy horible how de thinks i realy think the person who thought (hay lets nerf the abilitys before the people can play with them and find out if they actualy need to be nerfed) has a grain of sand for a brain literaly no intelagense comes from there brain they just think moronic thoughts <<<(just a little critisism)

You dont nerf somthing before hand you look after it in the live build and tweek it as needed to see if it actualy needs a nerf doing it before hand is just stupid and extremly moronic 

 

Id say if anyone is also sick of them making bad decisions like they did right hear stop suporting them save your money untill they stop doing this they realy dont deserve your money if there doing somthing you dont like you wouldent pay somone cuting your hair there doing good at first but oh no they did somthing you didnt like  and now your hair is ruind you dont pay them 

[iSiawPrime]

If this system is aimed towards very experienced Warframe players ( MR 8 Requirement) then you’re telling me that Auto-Installing Ayatan Stars is more complex and requires more experienced players?

Does pressing one button to Auto-Install requires more experience than the whole Helminth system? 

[-Ironheade-]

Please DE, just give us cold, hard numbers! Tell us by how much you nerfed those abilities. "XY reduced" is literally worthless information. Also Wukongs Defy already has an armor cap at 1500... did you mean to tell us that you lowered the cap? If so, TELL US PLS!

[wizardeiges]

Brilliant.  nerf the very few abilities people wanted to use instead of buffing the crazy amount of absolute trash abilities no one ever uses. 

You took something that was going to be fun that would have made a bad kit actually good and you said NO, you can't have that much fun and started swinging the nerf bat instead of making all the trash abilities littering the system have any kind of value.  

I thought this whole thing was about replacing trash abilities to make frames more fun. not swapping trash with trash.  

You getting upset I wanted to replace decoy with roar or choose roar over decoy is so ridiculous.  

If you're upset about roar even being a option that is completely your fault.  you opened the gate, you made it a option.  you opened it up just to nerf it and the other actually useful abilties.  BRUH.  why did you even bother then.  

You claim testing showed roar as a huge choice.  I seriously doubt you did any testing.  takes 0.1 seconds to realize roar = damage so obliviously it is better than decoy and you still put roar in.  only reason you're nerfing it is because of the few people in here crying about how no one will play rhino if roar is movable... Despite iron skin still existing and him being the new player frame every new player uses for many hours without ever touching roar.  

Roar eats energy like crazy too.  so are you reducing the energy cost to make up for it getting nerfed?  yeah right.   no fun allowed.  even if you did reduce energy, at this point why even call it roar.  just make it a helminth ability as it is no longer Roar since you've butchered the skill.  if it doesn't do what roar does then IT IS NOT ROAR.   Also want to point out that you intend on making it so you can't have more than 1 damage buff on a warframe at a time. Why wasn't this enough for you?    Since you're nerfing roar then do we get to have roar on a same kit with multiple damage buffs? I'm assuming no once again. I'm just trying to make the point that you set up roar to not be godly overpowered by already restricting damage buffs to 1 per kit.     

In case you can't tell this got me rolling my eyes.  you set this up to be one of the biggest best changes I've seen In Warframe in some time and you just couldn't wait to start nerfing what players were looking forward to.   not even bothering to make trash abilities useful. 

To be clear I was looking forward to fire Walker the most but with these 6nerfs before the update is even here, I expect all abilities moderately useful to get hit by the nerf bat soon enough since you made it clear you prefer to nerf what is useful instead of  bringing up trash skills to be any kind of useful.  

" but they didn't give numbers on how hard the nerf bat is hitting!!!!! "  oh please.  any kind of nerfing at all was unecesssary.  they put in good abilities just to nerf them.  all of this just shows how trash so many Warframe kits are and an attempt at trying to make them better with movable abilities was met with nerfing because apparently skills being better than trash ones is a bad thing.  

[QuinnCarter]

Yeah, it sucks that the seemingly best abilities for subsuming are getting nerfed before the system is even out, but we don't even know by how much yet. And regardless of the nerfs, the functionality of those abilities are gonna remain same. Dispensary is still going to give you more energy than you used to make it, Warcray still has its augment, and Roar is, well, Roar.

[kgabor]

We have more options exactly because the 'only options' will not be the only options.

If you don't take an ability that could help you with farming or a niche ability that lets you indirectly dps better, or one that helps your energy economy, that's on you, it's a weird flex, but ok.

[Gendalph]

I've held off on commenting on this system, since we had no real information to give feedback on. But now you're about to neuter the damn thing even before people get to play around with it.

I have two questions for you guys at DE:

• Do you have a coherent vision of what you want your game to be, or is it a blanket-pulling contest?
• Why, when nerfing things, instead of adjustments you blow your #*!%ing ankles off?

I expected this to be a high-end system, to allow us to become mass-murdering machines. Literal bringers of death. To take Warframe vets know and love and kick it up a couple notches to batS#&amp;&#036; crazy Warframe.

Look at Hyperscape! They gave people speed, action, trill! It's a very fast-paced game, similar to Warframe in its tempo, in a way. Why do you guys don't give us that freedom, instead of putting up a solid ceiling to what we can achieve? Let us shape our game!

How about making all Warframes equally good? How about abolishing Riven attenuation adjustments and instead let them bring any weapon with a competent build on it to some arbitrary DPS target? Imagine people using Cycron and competing with Acceltra, in Steel Path. You preach freedom - then give us said freedom!

Imagine Zephyr being useful outside of her tankiness and flight, imagine people seriously using Nyx outside of spamming Chaos or trying to make her Mind Control do anything other than spend Energy, Frost competing with Protea!

Why can't we have these kinds of choices? You can do better!

 

In regards to upcoming Helminth system: most of the aforementioned abilities are just that good, and your nerfs actually change very little - Roar is still a very compelling option, even if you halve its effect, same goes for Dispensary, and Larva, while very good, is not the only ability of its kind,

Who in their right mind would use Decoy over of Molt or Resonator?
There's literally no reason to use Reave outside of Revenant's kit. Nope, none. Whatsoever. Ever.
Thermal Sunder doesn't really work outside of Gauss' kit, unless you attach a reasonable Redline meter to it (and given the update and your track record I expect it not only won't get some Redline, but will also be nerfed for the purposes of Infusion)., how about giving out Mach Rush instead, purely for mobility?
Why not buff Gara's Spectrorage or give out her Shattered Lash, which is a better ability, even in the context of her kit?
Why Wukong's Defy? At some point Wukong was called Defy - why give it away? Because Cloud Walker would actually be the fourth-fifth most picked ability, even if you remove the healing part?
What if you listened to Brozime and buffed Ash's Teleport and gave that out instead?
What about Nezha? Why not Blazing Chakram instead of Firewalker? I don't know which one of these would be better, but the infusions sorely lack mobility abilities.
If you're so afraid of giving out Mirage's Eclipse that you're nerfing it, why not give out Sleight Of Hand instead? There are builds that focus on this ability, it could really be an interesting choice.

And then there's Frost, who just needs a refresh, Valkyr who needs a rework (Warcry is almost her entire usable kit!) and Nyx who is still bad.

...why are you afraid of doing crazy stuff, guys? Do the crazy thing! Stop listening to Average Joe and do something that would leave him slack-jawed. I know you can.

[Skaleek]

On 2020-08-19 at 6:37 PM, Aldain said:

How would you make Loki's Decoy, Excalibur's Radial Blind, Nekros' Terrify and Revanent's Reave (remember, no thralls) for example able to compete with Roar?

Even discounting all the other abilities, how would one make any of those compete with a one-button damage buff?

Good question. If i had the answer to that I'd probably be a warframe developer.

[(PSN)thegarada]

6 hours ago, (PS4)kfrancis902 said:

MR not meaning anything is the problem lol.

Honestly, I have no clue why it even exist. It never meant anything, yet some people cling to it as if it does. "I have a higher number than those peasants. I MUST HAVE NICE THINGS AND THEY DO NOT." Not by earning through game play, but by artificial lock by a number that rarely represent player experience and/or power, and you only gain progress through it by running a grind bot of junk. Totally legit. 

[Kirv_Goldblade]

and crash goes the hypetrain. if you're seeing overwhelming choices maybe it's not the choices that are too good to not pick maybe it's the ones that aren't being picked being too bad to pick. and i though this was suppose to be a system for veteran players and not new players, with this new MR requirement well lets just say that you can probably get there in a bit over a week not counting needed build times note really something that i'd call "veteran" content

[(PSN)Renan_RXZ]

The major problem is that if the nerfs are not that bad, its pointless cause we are still gonna be using those skills. If the nerfs destroy those skills, why adding them to the system in the first place?

The reason why they are doing is fine but the means not, they should buff the others, they are not gonna get what they want by nerfing. We are not gonna use decoy  no matter how nerfed is rhino roar.

[QuinnCarter]

Just now, (PS4)Renan_RXZ said:

The major problem is that if the nerfs are not that bad, its pointless cause we are still gonna be using those skills. If the nerfs destroy those skills, why adding them to the system in the first place?

The reason why they are doing is fine but the means not, they should buff the others, they are not gonna get what they want by nerfing. We are not gonna use decoy  no matter how nerfed is rhino roar.

I completely agree with you, nerfing the best abilities doesn't make me want to use anything else because everything else in comparison is trash.

[trst]

But there are plenty of viable options that aren't a generic damage buff? Shuriken for spammable 100% armor stripping, Petrify for farming potential on any frame, Silence/Lull/Rest&Rage to enhance stealth frames, Fire Blast/Blood Altar/Reave/etc for healing, Condemn/Pillage to restore shields, Null Star for DR on squishy frames, etc.

Yes pressing a button for damage or duration based armor are the most straightforward abilities but there are plenty of synergies that can be made and specific frame shortcomings that can be removed with some ingenuity. Anyone trying to act like the only option is Roar or Decoy are just being silly.

[Hokibukisa]

You’re wasting your time with this lot, they enjoy complaining.

Comrads in commiseration

[(PSN)Lil-Ruaro]

“We consider this a customisation for ‘VERY EXPERIENCED’ players”

guess that was a lie, and you all wonder why new players get burned out so easily. 
Giving us something to access at a higher mastery rank was a good idea, it gave us a challenge to try and reach that rank to be able to access it. But now you just lowered it and ruined its purpose. The nerf was expected, but dont nerf it to the point it isnt usable anymore smh

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

This system is such a mess and imho it should have never been implemented. You brought this upon yourself and shot yourselves in the foot when you decided to choose these 6 abilities especially something like Roar which clearly wasn't intended to be in the system as you just shown by nerfing it. Just replace Roar with Charge, Mirage with Sleight of Hand. And suddenly you almost fixed the main cruxes of the system. I still don't understand how it was even accepted or considered into the system.

Instead of beating your head on values/balance just outright replace the abilities. No amount of nerfing will stop Roar for being at the top of the System. It has to be replaced, period.

And if Roar is gonna stay in the system then I suggest you scrap the idea of "No signature" abilities because clearly you went against those rules by implementing such ability and let us have Volt Shields for everyone. Now he is not a must pick for Eidolons since others will do his job. Give everyone Wisp Reservoirs. Give Trinity's Energy Vampire. See the pattern here? Because Roar follows that pattern.

Either replace the abilities or scrap the no signature abilities and let us have everyone's valuable abilities scrapping the Warframe's identity in the process or delay the update and delete the system. But the third is just a pipe dream.

This band aid fix brought even more problems than just reworking the frames and abilities that needed help, which is what you should've done since the start.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

But... We don't know how harsh the change is

[KitMeHarder]

The point isn't the nerf, it's the arbitrary "rules" they're making. Same way how the Xoris is now literally the worst stat-stick in the game; New and inexperienced players will go into the Helminth system in the future expecting a 1:1 ability conversion. But randomly only 6 of the now 44 abilities will not do that.

If they don't like the power that those abilities give, I'd rather they just replace them with a new ability.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

My only care about the Helminth room is that newbies might get swept in the hype and youtube meta build videos and devote unhealthy/burnout inducing amounts of effort into gathering the large amounts of resources for helminth, getting the frames (and probably not even a second copy of them) just to subsume them - when they should just focus in the massive amounts of core gameplay Warframe has to offer them right from the bat.

Newbies won't be able to help it, they'll want to try that shiny feature as soon as possible because it's all the rage among seasoned players, and realize it's not exactly the effort same as a veteran with huge stocks of resources and frame parts to spare - which will cause them to get burned out to the point it drives them away. See them trying to get those Arcane Energizes from Hydrolists for their endgame energy hungry Chroma's they saw on Youtube - which they don't even need right away and except on select occasions for late game.

Other than that I really wouldn't care. I sincerely hope that after MR30 is a thing DE revises it into a better paced progression system, spacing out the Mastery Rank until R25 - and offer something truly meaningful at MR30. Otherwise it's just getting to MR16 and not much incentive to reach 25-30. Even though I do consider the small bonuses we already get to be quite the plus to have a high MR.

[Klokwerkaos]

Helminth Nerfs:
Step 1:  Create an awesome idea
Step 2: Players are excited and are returning to the game
Step 3: Panic because you made a home run, self sabotage and shoot yourself in the Foot by killing hype before it even launches.

Step 4: ???
Step 5:  Groffit?

Very angry DE.

1) new players don't need more content.
The three players who want to be MR 8 Forever to protect their beloved meme that was funny once in 2015 are not a priority.  This is the medallion fiasco all over again where there is a good idea and people are excited and a ridiculous few ruin it for everyone.  Players leave in droves around MR 12-15 because there is nothing to work towards where they see it.  Yes there is "more" but it's just more of the same grind.  This would have given players something to work towards and while it isn't a system for post game players like myself it WAS an exciting step in that direction.  Way to kill that dream.

2) DE Steve notoriously wants to protect player investment right?  How about the time I wasted refarming all the frames just to get a watered down piece of mush rather than the gold I was promised?  And all the other players in the same boat.  Time is the most important resource in WF, more than plat.  I guess we only respect player investment when it aligns with whatever direction the winds at DE are blowing?

3) If you're a Valkyr main and you cried and got it nerfed because "MUH FRAME IDENTITY" you should be asking for a rework because the rest of your kit is trash, not asking that choices get removed.

4) The game, even on the so called "hard mode" is already a joke.  Adding more OP to it means functionally nothing.  So what we people that min max can shave what, 4-5 seconds off our already 90 sec clear time?  All that destroyed in the name of "so called" balance.  Get real.  There is no balance, and there hasn't been for ages and it's too complex to even do that at this point.

5) Just flat out remove the nerf.  If you remain on this course you will do one of three things, none of which are good:  

A) you nerf the ability slightly which means literally nothing because it's still the best choice, except now you get bad PR and hype death right before lauch, good job DE.
B) you nerf the ability too much and the item becomes a non choice, removing build diversity.
C) by some miracle you nerf it just the right amount (lol, will never happen) and players are still salty and hype death and it's still major boon to all MR 8 players that now introduced them to being stupid OP and making the rest of the game a joke for them, not that it wasn't already, but more so, Faster.

6) After removing the nerf, revisit the trash tier abilities, ask why they are not selected, then buff or change them.  Yes, 1 person will be salty on the forums with any change.  99% of the rest of the crowd will tell them to zip it, give us buffs.  This mean more build diversity, not less.  Imagine a world where Loki's ability wasn't just a non choice, but where you had to think about it if would be better than any of the other metas.  This is a perfect opportunity to over time, rework trash abilities on frames and it doesn't have to be on launch day... and here's the thing... when you nerf stuff, people just naturally go to the next best thing... and then you nerf that and the next thing and the next in an endless cycle (see trash riven dispos for ALL meta weapons) and all that does is frustrate your players that invest their time and money in you.  DISLIKE.

7) Why are you nerfing defy?  That ability isn't even good if you know how to play the game.  At best it makes squish frames less squishy, and even then, better options exist.  Who made that call?  Plus you know the armor is already capped right?  What does capping a cap mean?  I assume what you communications majors meant to say was "the cap is being reduced".  That would make sense, but still be a bad idea because it's still not even that good of a pick, it's just an obvious one for dummy frame players... the type that run innaros max health and call it a day.  This does nothing to help your cause.

In short:
-Revert the nerf
-Keep all abilities as initially announced.
-Collect data (not hearsay and speculation)
-analyze which picks suck and why
-fix those abilities and make them a better choice  (I know, this one requires brain power, but you know what?  You can ask for help from players that know how to play the game better than you do, there are lots and there's already lots of good ideas on the table, you just need to admit that to yourself and ask for help for once.  Plenty oF people would be more than happy that aren't idiots and know how to play the game)
-Literally none of your main youtubers, even your favorites that are nice and treat you guys with special kidd gloves are happy about this, to the contrary, they are all salty and saying the same thing I am, don't believe me, check out the SAME VIDEO UPLOADED BY LITERALLY ALL OF THEM TODAY, sure they have different scripts and different graphics, but they are all the same video. 
-FIX IT.

Frankly, I am disappointed in the devs for this current choice, and more over, it fills me with a feeling of disgust.
 

[trst]

The real joke is that people are freaking out on something we not only don't know specifics about but over something that was 100% expected and explicitly mentioned as a possibility before hand. People are complaining that ongoing development happened on something currently IN development.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

20 minutes ago, QuinnCarter said:

I completely agree with you, nerfing the best abilities doesn't make me want to use anything else because everything else in comparison is trash.

This. Why use decoy for anything at all ever when resonator exists? And no nerfing resonator wouldn't make decoy worth using.

 

[Bene-Elohim]

Could you please pass along the sentiment that the crapoli abilities just need to be buffed and it fixes your problem