(PSN)robotwars7 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I'm curious as to how heavy handed the nerfs have been. if they're like only half as effective as their proper versions, then... oof. if it's just nerfed by 25% then I think it may still be salvageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggs-DE- Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 There are two critical flaws with the 6 preemptive nerfs. 1. Players are still going to use those one of six abilities to replace useless abilities. 2. Discriminating against specific abilities is a balancing rabbit hole. There being six nerfs suggests that there's at least 7 options for each warframe (take one of the nerfed powers, or keep your original 4). Nerfing the mechanic leaves more avenues for the balance team to neglect. Adding complexity is not good. --- Things that the Helminth system has to balance around: 1. which power that warframes can donate 2. how donated powers synergize (or don't) with recipients New: 3. the numbers for the "best" powers --- Why bother letting any good abilities be donated? If you're going to nerf the donated powers before anyone has used them, just change which power is donated. Rhino - charge instead Mirage - traps instead Valkyr - paralyze instead Protea - overshield bombs instead (harrow donates an overshield power so that's apparently not a balance issue) Nidus - the stomp with no scaling? Larva wasn't worth nerfing tbh Wukong - cloud walker instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)NewYorkGameflow Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said: And if Roar is gonna stay in the system then I suggest you scrap the idea of "No signature" abilities because clearly you went against those rules by implementing such ability and let us have Volt Shields for everyone. Now he is not a must pick for Eidolons since others will do his job. Give everyone Wisp Reservoirs. Give Trinity's Energy Vampire. See the pattern here? Because Roar follows that pattern. THIS!!! Everyone I know that left Warframe would come back for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanShell_Mk-4.1 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 This is honestly extremely senseless, either give us the ability or don't. This is an attempt to mitigate the min/max'ers. The only way to change what they pick is to change what abilities are the min/max abilities. If you make other abilities even one half of one percent better than the other ones those players are going to pick the new min/max abilities. After which all the other players will follow behind as they always do. I get that you don't want everyone to be running around using the same builds, and that makes some sense at face value. However, giving us a pile of lukewarm junk abilities to replace the other lukewarm junk abilities seems pretty senseless to me. except for in the cases where the warframes ability is literally so bad that it makes good sense to just unbind the key entirely from your keyboard so that you don't accidentally press it (like the wukong staff). I would even be good with the idea of removing the whole eat warframes for new abilities and just make it some other equally lukewarm thing but at least novel, like eat non-prime warframes for some skins or something, and have it give some MR or something so that at least we can get some more daily fissure juice out of grinding for all those frames and grinding the rep in the new area. Although, I don't know how the player base would respond to you completely rolling back the infusing abilities idea now that it's shown itself to not work conceptually. Another idea would be just trying to make the warframe abilities impactful and meaningful, since replacing the lukewarm abilities with other warframe's impactful meaningful abilities is now more or less out of the question. However, it seems to me that if you are going to keep this subsume warframes idea in the game at all, it would make sense to just pick some abilities to infuse that you don't care if everyone uses them (there are a ton of them, granted that's essentially the root if the problem to begin with) and just let players pick from those abilities. This would make it so that not everyone would feel like the whole subsume warframe abilities idea is a let down. Additionally, it's my strong recommendation that the next time that you are considering releasing a big idea like this you should pick a significant number of experienced skilled players and casuals to test the idea and make them sign NDA's and have them test the hell out of the idea first. Because as far as I can tell, literally no one that I've spoken to about this whole new element to the game is the least bit interested in it as it stands. Essentially, we are all just standing around waiting for the next couple of rounds of nerfs to the infusing abilities before we bother with any of it. Also ,the next thing the min/max'ers are going to overwhelming choose is the armor stripping abilities for taking down the few tanky enemies in the game, so you might consider getting the nerf on those over with soon. After that there really shouldn't be any meaningful utility in the subsume warframes thing and thus there will be no potentiality to overwhelming choose any infused ability at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKazz91 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, Kirv_Goldblade said: and crash goes the hypetrain. if you're seeing overwhelming choices maybe it's not the choices that are too good to not pick maybe it's the ones that aren't being picked being too bad to pick. and i though this was suppose to be a system for veteran players and not new players, with this new MR requirement well lets just say that you can probably get there in a bit over a week not counting needed build times note really something that i'd call "veteran" content even with build times I made mr 8 within a two weeks of starting. I got +1 MR at least every other day up until I hit 10 an then it slowed down dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Baron Kit Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Came back just to say I still 100% think roar should just be replaced. Nerfing it and making it bad isn't what anyone wanted people just didn't wanna see rhino lose his ace. Just replace it with iron skin or charge and buff or change those ones to be cool. But outside that I disagree with most of the other things being nerfed as they are for the most part utility. (I'd replace eclipse too tho) utility is good for the game where as nobody needs a dmg buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy.bulbs Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I was excited about this update i was gonna use mostly nidus larva seemed fun to put on rhino than use his stomp as well an than melee. I log in an see the radius reduced for what exactly i remember reading some ability's will be "increased" for being picked . What ever you said about that was a lie as i can see all you have posted is nerfs not one "increased" ability. An as a mr 28 what in the world do you think mr 8 is endgame are you for real !? i anit even bothering with this system youve just ruined my hype i had so many different builds in mind but seeing how you are nerfing ability's already why even bother? i can just see it now i spent all the time to make a really cool ability an poof ! its nerf wasted resources an everything . I am extremely pissed ! This should of never happend an i do mean ever ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizardeiges Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Brilliant. nerf the very few abilities people wanted to use instead of buffing the crazy amount of absolute trash abilities no one ever uses. You took something that was going to be fun that would have made a bad kit actually good and you said NO, you can't have that much fun and started swinging the nerf bat instead of making all the trash abilities littering the system have any kind of value. I thought this whole thing was about replacing trash abilities to make frames more fun. not swapping trash with trash. You getting upset I wanted to replace decoy with roar or choose roar over decoy is so ridiculous. If you're upset about roar even being a option that is completely your fault. you opened the gate, you made it a option. you opened it up just to nerf it and the other actually useful abilities. BRUH. why did you even bother then. You claim testing showed roar as a huge choice. I seriously doubt you did any testing. takes 0.1 seconds to realize roar = damage so obliviously it is better than decoy and you still put roar in. only reason you're nerfing it is because of the few people in here crying about how no one will play rhino if roar is movable... Despite iron skin still existing and him being the new player frame every new player uses for many hours without ever touching roar. Roar eats energy like crazy too. so are you reducing the energy cost to make up for it getting nerfed? yeah right. no fun allowed. even if you did reduce energy, at this point why even call it roar. just make it a helminth ability as it is no longer Roar since you've butchered the skill. if it doesn't do what roar does then IT IS NOT ROAR. Also want to point out that you intend on making it so you can't have more than 1 damage buff on a warframe at a time. Why wasn't this enough for you? Since you're nerfing roar then do we get to have roar on a same kit with multiple damage buffs? I'm assuming no once again. I'm just trying to make the point that you set up roar to not be godly overpowered by already restricting damage buffs to 1 per kit. That was enough. It was completely unnecessary to nerf abilities ontop of already restricting them. Most people were perfectly fine with skill restriction but it seems a huge majority hate these nerfs. In case you can't tell this got me rolling my eyes. you set this up to be one of the biggest best changes I've seen In Warframe in some time and you just couldn't wait to start nerfing what players were looking forward to. not even bothering to make trash abilities useful. To be clear I was looking forward to fire Walker the most but with these 6nerfs before the update is even here, I expect all abilities moderately useful to get hit by the nerf bat soon enough since you made it clear you prefer to nerf what is usefu instead of bringing up trash skills to be any kind of useful. " but they didn't give numbers on how hard the nerf bat is hitting!!!!! " oh please. any kind of nerfing at all was unnecessary. they put in good abilities just to nerf them. all of this just shows how trash so many Warframe kits are and an attempt at trying to make them better with movable abilities was met with nerfing because apparently skills being better than trash ones is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)robotwars7 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 my main gripe is the bait and switch they pulled. it was dishonest of them to say one thing and do another, and if I wanted to be lied to, I'll go see EA or Ubisoft's websites. DE once again reiterated that companies are NOT your friend, even if you'd like them to be. but, I'm sure I'll get over it when the update drops. admittedly they've done an amazing job with the new world and I love that the infested finally have some scarier-looking units. I just hope the bounties will be a bit more varied so that grinding Entrati rep won't feel like a slog past rank 3.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanShell_Mk-4.1 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I think the best thing to do is figure out what the rare mods and resources are in the dailies, do the corresponding level missions for those and if you end up with a spare non-prime frame throw it in the wall mouth thing. But it's honestly going to be months before it's really worth putting any effort into it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keen Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 So just a few ideas I had reading over everything. 1: I think MR15 is fine for the Helminth system actually, I feel like this is more of an endgame kinda system. Less complexity for new players, since I'm running a new player through in my clan and realizing how much stuff has changed. Infact why not make it MR20 to really make players feel like they earned it! 2: Everyone complaining about Roar being OP, so throw the Riven system at it. The more people sacrifice and install an ability, the less effective it is. Less used abilities get stronger. Self balancing! /s Seriously though great job DE, this kind of system is a breath of fresh air that has me excited and theorycrafting all over again with all of the new potentials this brings. Don't let the rabble get you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 My feedback is simple..... for the sake of consistency outside of powers which otherwise could not function without change, no change should be made. Things should be consistent and there should be no question as to why Ability-X got through without alteration while Ability-Y was changed. If they insist on changing certain powers but not others then they should just make a whole new range of powers that are thematic to the frame but NOT from the current list of powers. That way there is no inconsistancy or confusion with relation to the abilities. As an added bonus that 2nd thing would also mean that you could subsume a frame and add it's power to a copy/prime of that frame because it would be a wholly new ability. Kinda like a srsly aggressive augment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ONI Prowess Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said: If you're a person with no imagination, yes. People that actually know what they're doing won't even be using roar. dont cut yourself on that edge. 10 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said: I'm curious as to how heavy handed the nerfs have been. if they're like only half as effective as their proper versions, then... oof. if it's just nerfed by 25% then I think it may still be salvageable. and then you have skills like decoy that are not in any way shape or form even worth replacing any ability on any warframe (i get that its the example turd at this point but still) and thats the problem. DE chose Roar, not the players, with that as an option in mind they should have done a better job at picking other warframe abilities that would give us more options, they set the bar, its not our fault they only set that bar high for all of 5 abilities. nobody expected roar or eclipse, not one person expected that to be a legitimate option, same with war cry, everyone assumed it would essentially be the worst ability on every frame. the problem is some of the skills they chose are such clear un biased trash of a skill, that no nerf would ever be great enough to make them a consideration ever. at that point nobody would use the system, its not like we HAVE to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharm Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Based on whats been shown this is also a heavy resource sink too to level up the helminth. Surely investment has to equal reward or it'll just not be worth doing. Sure i want to replace my lokis switch tele or decoy with something id actually use, but at this point its looking like i only need to subsume maybe one frame then ignore it completely if things are getting nerf bats. I'll just greedy pull every frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Baron Kit Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Still just think roar and to a lesser extent eclipse shoulda been replaced and whatever they chose to replace them with buffed or changed. Roar is rhinos best move and is one of the best dmg buffs in the game im not preaching doom it's just a thing that stuck out BAD amongst all of the other abilities. other abilities honest to god shouldn't be nerfed as they are just utility and survivability. Options are good. Nobody needs a dmg buff where as more sustain/utility and survivability is things that will always be good for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)YoungGunn82 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I mean me and a buddy can run Rhino roar and Mesa PM and simulate what we were gonna have with the Chrysalis System...why is that not also too OP? I’m failing to see the difference between getting Rhino roar from a buddy or spectre but when we are gonna put it on our favorite frame it has got to be the discounted nerfed version... Someone please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizardeiges Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, Oreades said: My feedback is simple..... for the sake of consistency outside of powers which otherwise could not function without change, no change should be made. Things should be consistent and there should be no question as to why Ability-X got through without alteration while Ability-Y was changed. If they insist on changing certain powers but not others then they should just make a whole new range of powers that are thematic to the frame but NOT from the current list of powers. That way there is no inconsistancy or confusion with relation to the abilities. As an added bonus that 2nd thing would also mean that you could subsume a frame and add it's power to a copy/prime of that frame because it would be a wholly new ability. Kinda like a srsly aggressive augment. Yeah that was another issue I had with it. Consistency. I don't want to have to go read all these dev updates just to see why roar gives completely different stats depending on if it's from helminth stripped from a rhino or on a rhino but still the exact same skill. It's so silly! Pretty much yeah,I pointed out how changing roar no longer made it roar if it doesn't do what actual roar does on rhino despite the skill being stripped from rhino. None of it makes sense. Thematic skills sounds great but most frames already have those,they'd have to get extra creative to make a new themed skill not already in the list of skills. Maybe instead of just stripping skills it could have just been a : Consume frame to get a "mutated" variant of a skill so there wouldn't be so much backlash over them nerfing abilities as they wouldn't technically be a frames ability but a variant of them. But at the same time,people like those abilities because of what they do,not because of what they might be changed into. An example,I don't want a warcry that does 50% of what actual warcry does. I want warcry because of what warcry does,not what a mutated warcry does. At the same time though,even a 50% warcry is still better than the majority of terrible skills littering warframe kits. I don't want to have to settle on a 50% warcry though if I can just get straight up warcry. They opened the gate to transferable skills,not variations of skills so that's what everyone expects and if they don't deliver on what was shown to be given then it's no longer what people were excited for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Ironheade- Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I just don´t get this mindset. If there are a couple of desirable abilities and a huge bunch of undesirable ones, why not make the bad ones more desirable instead of making everything undesirable? Also, there is no way in hell anyone in their right mind will ever choose something like Decoy or Mind Control or Spectrorage over Roar or Larva, no matter how much you nerf the latter ones into the ground. Some of those abilities are just plain garbage. Making them not be garbage will maybe make people actually contemplate using them. Nerfing anything else that´s better won´t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, (XB1)ONI Prowess said: dont cut yourself on that edge. and then you have skills like decoy that are not in any way shape or form even worth replacing any ability on any warframe (i get that its the example turd at this point but still) and thats the problem. DE chose Roar, not the players, with that as an option in mind they should have done a better job at picking other warframe abilities that would give us more options, they set the bar, its not our fault they only set that bar high for all of 5 abilities. nobody expected roar or eclipse, not one person expected that to be a legitimate option, same with war cry, everyone assumed it would essentially be the worst ability on every frame. the problem is some of the skills they chose are such clear un biased trash of a skill, that no nerf would ever be great enough to make them a consideration ever. at that point nobody would use the system, its not like we HAVE to use it. I don't get it....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakosta_Kai Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 6 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said: now ask yourself this, how bad they nerf it. If we read diminished of meaning of that word and the meaning for it which this is all from the dictionary. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/diminished?s=t reduced or lessened; made smaller music denoting any minor or perfect interval reduced by a semitone music denoting a triad consisting of the root plus a minor third and a diminished fifth music (postpositive) (esp in jazz or pop music) denoting a diminished seventh chord having as its root the note specifiedB diminished more likely it is the 1st one for the question is "HOW SMALL" for it could be stupided enough to be just 5% of roar for is it that deserving that heavy of nerf then it is a yeet roar, no one want a 20% of that roar at all at least it is the amount probably worth using if it is actually 35% because I know rhinos has a mod let them re-roar their abilities. I never needed the definition of "diminished"😁 They adjusted the full strength versions of those abilities because they were likely overpowered in their opinion. If they thought it was overpowered given the strength available in this game...It was probably overpowered. 6 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said: I thought about it alot for I was hoping they nerf it right amount and not chunky that would be worthless even use a buff if you have super strength warframe for it just become another meaningless task to do all that even on Chroma if you use roar, it is better to have a single Rhino prime by himself to do roar instead having another frame that copy that roar is nerf for you can forget it how this is going to be. We know not all the frame will be perfect but adding such ability as nerf version it just going be thrown out the window. Right now, someone voicing in a talk about Heminth's project because if anyone remember "Expert players is getting their hands on it" that was a lie for now it is any players can get their hands on it. Irrelevant... That's like saying Mesa won't slot Roar in place of Ballistic Battery because it's not a full strength Roar...We both know that ain't true. Anyone saying that they still wanted the full strength versions anyway is basically saying they wanted to whine about getting nerfed after they subsumed a frame... They are, for all intents and purposes, whining about having nothing to whine about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said: Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules? It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused. Please stop with the Harrison Bergeronning your game. "People would like these, so let's make them bad so they will choose other things" should not be a design ethos. If you're going to hobble certain powers and not others, just make a totally new series of powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Hikuro-93 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said: my main gripe is the bait and switch they pulled. My wish for Warframe 2019 was bug-patching and rework updates and a full Dojo system rework - I guess half the wish come true is still good. If I had a big wish for Warframe 2020 it'd be less hyping stuff years before release, and more consistency in the way DE changes stuff. This tennocon was a good start for the first part of my wish, hope it keeps that way. As for consistency, the only thing I'm sorry for is that DE's only consistency is at being inconsistent. I don't mind most decisions, but I do dislike the lack of forethought, planning and constant pandering to loud minorities in exchange for some media points. I knew the game was volatile, and I accept that, but it seems to have escalated a lot in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttylerrocks4u Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Constalation said: I'm mad because DE made an amatuer mistake that even I could see and decided to bandaid fix it. Literally anyone would have noticed that Roar and Eclipse were going to be top picks, and probably wren't good picks to begin with for the Helminth. Yet here we are, watching it get nerfed. DE applying a bandaid instead of improving the situation, like augments(Which in a multitude of situations shoud literally just be part of the core ability instead of taking a modslot). They are just making it worse for everyone instead of fixing the source of the problem. That being half the other options are actually useless and the other half are "for fun" abilities that are questionable at best. Ok but hear me out. Would u feel better they do it now vs after u subsume those abilities and then them tell you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkest_Fire Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Decoy draws more aggro than resonator, in my experience, so nerfing is kinda pointless because they have pro and cons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotyke Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said: I don't get it....lol. You're going against META. You're trying to be different. You're leaving the pack mentality You're now far from the pack mentality. Walking upon its edge. Therefore, you're edgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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