The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Wasahbii]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

No... What's ridiculous is having Auto Slotting Sculptures being MR locked in the first place.

I agree! I was just using that as a point of reference for what DE considers being worthy of being MR locked. How is something as trivial as autoslotting more "endgame" than this helminth system "trageted toward more experienced players"? It's just so dumb. 

[MyTagforHalo]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

After seeing his videos about the Catchmoon nerf, the Ember rework, and the Xoris before and after the nerf, I take his opinions with a grain of salt. Far as I'm concerned, he's in favor of broken weapons and abilities. Big praises about the Ember rework and the Catchmoon and Xoris when they came out, but generally very negative when the latter two got balanced.

At least we can agree that those abilities should never have been chosen. DE should've known how much Roar was going to bust already broken frames.

Same. Honestly the last of his videos that i've watched was the one "discussing" the melee damage imbalance vs primary weapons. Only to watch Brozime to complain that primaries are not viable for "late game" content (I.E. extended survivals) and melee weapons are the only options. All the while he is running a whip claw khora build and 1 tapping every group of enemies he runs into.  

At that point i'm just sitting there going "Uh..huh.. Okay.. so you're one of "those" players"  as his party members even raise up the point that most of the community doesn't play those kinds of missions. Getting people to run hydron for 15 waves is hard enough as is. And how primary (and even secondary) weapons are perfectly viable for the entirety of the star chart and even beyond it. 

Basically, if it isn't god tier, it isn't good.  And once you realize that, you have to look at his opinions in a different light. Same with his over examination of the helminth system before it was finalized.  No one is a master of every warframe, some of us know tricks that others might not. And in that, the helmith system is a lot more fun when you're just screwing around with it. Yet his immediate take on it is to try and decerne the "meta" ahead of time. Which, i think is kinda what happened to the community in general. 
 

[Todd.Howard]

7 hours ago, Oreades said:

Please stop with the Harrison Bergeronning your game. 

"People would like these, so let's make them bad so they will choose other things" should not be a design ethos. 

If you're going to hobble certain powers and not others, just make a totally new series of powers.

 

I can't get over how brilliant this comment is, and I couldn't agree more.

[UmekoHimeneko]

Yah know, I started out very happy about the update. I stayed up till the early morning hours and missed sleep before work just to take part in the Tennocon event you guys planned for us.

But I'm not happy anymore. What started as excitement and hope that I'll be able to even get my squishy and fragile frames into late game content without dying constantly was quickly tossed out the window as soon as you (once again) decided to nerf things.

I'm disappointed in you guys. You always choose to nerf things instead of make everything viable to different types of players.

How about you start listening? To the people that actually play your game and make sure the game keeps running. Why do you always choose to destroy the power fantasy that all players want? Why do you run and nerf everything that so many players like and use? 

I hope this time the criticism will help you understand you need to undo your nerfs and make this system actually good. Because as it is, I only see a small percentage of the player base even using it. ANY skill is better than a nerfed skill. 

I'm sure many will agree that rather than toss away a skill they hardly use, they will prefer to use that, rather than a skill that was nerfed and is no longer useful to anyone. 

Besides, where's the fun in weak skills anyway.

I guess we will see what you guys choose to do when the update drops. (Bitterly, and no longer happily, waiting for it.)

And that's all for my rant. Every voice matters, right? 

 

 

[MyTagforHalo]

24 minutes ago, Goliat1988 said:

Maybe making helminth at MR8 with scalable infusion skills would make it more appealing? Helminth got 10 lvls - lets make use of them.

Lets say that You can unlock Helminth and infuse at MR8 (new player friendly approach). But at LVL 1 of helminth You get only 10% of infused skill power (or duration, range etc. or all at same time) 

To upgrade helminth to lvl 2 You need MR9 and skills will have 20% of their original power.

And so on and so on till MR 18 and 100% of skill power without nerfing abilities?

 

This way this system would be accesible for lower MRs and venterans would still want to lvl up this system and make use of it.

The only issue with this is that the resource costs for those infusions is the biggest problem for new players.  Making them pay for them in full, while only giving them a "sample" of the power is a pretty big turn off.  This is why the system was meant for "veterans" to begin with.  It's a disposable income sink.  It's honestly would have been easier to leave the system as it was, but let people subsume the warframe in the menu instead of selling the first copy. Best of both worlds.    Honestly, people should have mastery of the warframe before subsuming it while many of us have already mastered and sold old frames, I could be reasonable and say that As long as you master, or have mastered the frame previously, you may subsume it. In which case it is accessible to all ranks equally, and technically still rewards mastering all of the frames. People will naturally get to about MR 12 (atleast) though that journey and it would be a rather elegant way to do it imho. You have to build them to subsume them anyway, right?

[dddaanbotv-3]

Don't tweak precise values just buff or nerf using energy cost values.

[Goliat1988]

9 minutes ago, MyTagforHalo said:

The only issue with this is that the resource costs for those infusions is the biggest problem for new players.  Making them pay for them in full, while only giving them a "sample" of the power is a pretty big turn off.  

Resource cost could be modified too - first subsume can be 1/42 of last sumbume cost for example

Higher MR, more resource needed to sumbsume another frame, higher MR req. etc.

And about sample power - system might start at 50% with 5% increase per rank or whatever 🙂 still - scalable and worth rising MR and helminths lvl 

[Deminisis]

59 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Most players these days are playing nuke frames. It doesn't matter how much you buff the bad skills, Saryn, Mesa, Ember, Volt, and Equinox will never pick them over something like Roar which provides a multiplicative strength bonus to both weapons and abilities.

So, do nothing then? It is the way it is so pick roar anyway? Honestly I never wanted to see straight damage buffs on this list in the first place, but they insist on keeping them. I want to see ability buffs just like DE said they would do. Trinity and zephyr isn't enough.

[Sebastianx]

Hey DE, I've made a list of how the unlikable abilities could be buffed to make them a more appealing option instead of nerfing the only good ones, without breaking the game.

[MyTagforHalo]

17 minutes ago, Goliat1988 said:

Resource cost could be modified too - first subsume can be 1/42 of last sumbume cost for example

Higher MR, more resource needed to sumbsume another frame, higher MR req. etc.

And about sample power - system might start at 50% with 5% increase per rank or whatever 🙂 still - scalable and worth rising MR and helminths lvl 

Last i checked, helminth already had a cap on the number of infusions it could hold until you leveled it up.  THough it does not restrict the power in any such way.  It is locked behind a resource wall for new players at that point and therefore technically has an artificial mastery wall. (not to mention having to grind standing with the new faction at like, 4k a day to get access) Having power linked to mastery just makes it pointless to offer to low mastery players in the first place, so why bother? Locking the system to scaling MR is a problem even for veterans that dont want to do a particular portion of the mastery system.  Dont like archwing? well too bad! You have a whole level locked away then and only get 90% strength! Of course you could cap this at say.. MR 15 like originally intended.  But the usefulness of some of these abilities is questionable if you start hampering their stats up until that point and overall would leave most of the playerbase with a bad taste of the system. 

Whereas per the example I gave, if you just made it to where you required mastery of a frame before it's use, i think it's totally fair for you to subsume it and gain it's full power. It makes sense to have to have used a warframe, and understand how it's abilities work before you go and try to throw one of them on another warframe. Those of us who have mastered it already can jsut toss an unranked copy to the beast and everyone is happy. If you want a full collection, you can do so, and you're going to gain a substantial amount of mastery passively. 

[(XBOX)SirMilkfiend]

I understand the intention is to make the other abilities more attractive but it doesn't work out that simply. Weaker abilities are still unattractive. I had a few ideas.

Decoy:

Produces 3 decoys like the Silver Grove Loki, tap to have them stationary hold so they are mobile. The best buff for decoy would be on any warframe who uses it's 1 the decoys also cast this ability effectively duplicating first abilities across the board. On Nidus swarm with Virulence and build up stacks rapidly. On Vauban launch a platoon of electrified hamster balls. On Protea deploy shredding minefields the possibilities go on. Imo this would make Decoy a compelling helminth ability.

Spectrorage:

When firing weapons on enemies inside the circle of mirrors no ammo is used. Opens up range builds on Gara involving infinite ammo and any warframe that takes Spectrorage.

Mind Control:

Whatever Mallet does that determines it's damage should be applied to Mind Control. Or else for a utility reason on Mind Controlling an eximus enemy you steal it's active ability and regenerate energy while doing so.

Barrage:

Cook in the augment and have it so the ability does not end until all enemies in the effect range are dead, this would make it a good armor strip and cc.

Airburst:

This abiity was already buffed. A good followup I think would be if cast while airborne at the impact site there was a continuous vacuum effect sucking in enemies, for as long as you are airborne the succ remains. You could slap it on a Titania for infinite vacuum time.

Fireblast:

For every enemy struck from a heat proc by this ability warframe gets boosted ability strength, a possibly toned down version of Ember's passive.

Ice Wave:

For every enemy struck from a cold proc by this ability warframe gets an armour boost, would work well with Frost.

Shuriken:

Changing to Teleport would open a niche for mobility abilities that are the least represented in the Helminth system, a teleport to any spot would be a great option.

Banish:

Tap to cast, hold to apply the Riftwalker buff to yourself and allies. This is a weak version of Limbo's passive letting you enter the rift for a few seconds by dodging.

Pull:

Change the energy orb drop chance on death to be from any cause of death for a duration.

Terrify:

Enemies run towards your warframe not away while being chased by a monstrous vision. On reaching your warframe they cower in horror.

Defy:

Cloudwalker would be a fun alternate choice.

I have great respect to the devs - kudos to you wonderful souls x

 

 

 

 

[KlaussKlauss]

The naive Tenno fell for it again!

I hope the MR8 casuals eat this up real well. After all it's designed for them. Ofc I woudn't want to generalize to all MR8, but most will not know enough about the game in order to see that this system is just another hype train. 

I am perfectly content with those 3-5 meta frames with decent full kits. I have the nonprimed frames built and ready to go to Helminth but won't be mindlessly grinding util most of the "rules" (i.e. nerfes) are settled. 

First ability I will subsume is War Cry, just so you know. Nerf it to ground, I don't care. If it adds 1% attack speed on melee I will take it over the other trash. Second is Roar, irrespective of  nerf and other trash abilities. Third will probably be some mobility ability; you should nerf Fire Walk, it's just OP how you walk and make fire. 

May I add that we can already trivialize every game mode except waiting for time gates/invulnerability? If this System was intended to give only QoL abilities why put War Cry, Roar, Eclipse in there in the first place? It was only for the hype, wasn't it? Well now it will never be about QoL abilities no matter how much you nerf those abilities. They are just simply not trash!

 

 

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

Il y a 2 heures, ChossetteDivine a dit :

This is proving my point, those ability can't be standalones, you need a power slot and a mod slot, where the "good ones" didn't require a whole build tweak. Since we actively chose to replace abilities + that we have to sacrifice a frame and a ability slot + that we are expected to spend time to achive our goal to get , for say, Null Star on Banshee, it doesn't feel right to nerf the ones people were excited about.

And building Banshee around her Silence, neglecting her advantages (Sonar, armor strip with Sonic Boom, fodder clear and CC with Sound Quake) seems very odd, while it is possible and I do not  discard the idea, it just points out the flaw of the system, we can't "just" chose an ability to slap on Banshee because we want to replace one, and feel it will perform well without a serious tweak in mods or playstyle, we were told we'd get something and it got lessened creating this thread's explosion.

 

Last thing about Null Star, its DR is only on Health, since we got shield gating and Augur mod set, and a lot of options to stay alive in a game that has been made easier overall, you really don't need Null Star that much in the first place, on any frame, because weak frames usually already have either something to stay alive, wether it's CC, invisibility, native DR or high DPS.

You can build Banshee with low range (~50%), high duration, and two augments. I tried several build around her armor strip and sonar augment but even with shield gating she's honestly too squishy. And her 4 damage falls off way too quickly against higher level enemy IMO.

Silence + Sonar Augment with lower range on the other hand allows you to quickly kills off enemies stunned by Silence and get to the next one. Even with low range Sonar can easily overlap several mobs so the augment isn't wasted. I just wish she had more survivability and Null Star should help me on that. Esp with low range and augment to recast it whenever the Particles gets too low in numbers.

And honestly Sonar is powerful enough that you don't need that much armor strip.

Well, it's just how I envision her playstyle after all. 

 

An idea I had was : why not subsume a warframe with it augment equipped, so the power w/ augment get available on Helminth ? Maybe tie it with higher Reputation rank requirement. And it would be a good way to push for more warframe grind, so you can replace your ability by one augmented on that warframe.

Since we're talking Banshee, it would be neat to subsume a Banshee with Sonar augment, and replace the ability on Banshee prime with the upgraded version.

Granted, that's powercreep.

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, Sahansral said:

He's right with some important things:

* for the system to work there must be compelling things to choose from

* those 6 abilitites should never have been in the pool in the first place (defy being a special case)

* DE should have asked people's opinion in the creators program about the abilities.
* DE brought itself in a bad situation. They either overnerf the 6 or the diminished 6 are still obvious choices.
 

 

Problem is that if DE doesnt bring actually useful abilities into this system then the system will be completly useless, honestly when I heard first about this system I didnt care much about it because I expected that abiltiies that it will give us acess to wont be that useful, I thought I will fool around a bit with the system, maybe slightly upgrade some of abiltiies that are even worse on some of them frame but I was actually pleasantly suprised when ive heard that some useful abiltiies will be in, I acutally got interested in the system, I started to farm all the frames. if the system didnt bring actually useful abilities I wouldnt put any effort into using it. and eventually players would stop caring about it, people would only use it when replacing  bad abilities on all future frames.

 

I agree that for this system to work perfectly, abilities would need to be pretty equal, but while making all abilties equally 'meh' would make system work better it would create problem of people not actually being interested in the system.

People actually care about this system now because it provides some actually useful abilities, whatever its damage buff, damage migation, healing, energy or utility. DE is between rock and a hard place, either DE uninteresting but balanced system that players will stop caring about pretty soon or create actually useful system that adds another layer of custumization to frames which will be very hard if not out right impossible to perfectly balance.

[destraudo]

Get all the power nerfs in now DE, people will get real sassy if they farm a frame to subsume and then you nerf. 

[Sahansral]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Culaio:

Problem is that if DE doesnt bring actually useful abilities into this system then the system will be completly useless, honestly when I heard first about this system I didnt care much about it because I expected that abiltiies that it will give us acess to wont be that useful, I thought I will fool around a bit with the system, maybe slightly upgrade some of abiltiies that are even worse on some of them frame but I was actually pleasantly suprised when ive heard that some useful abiltiies will be in, I acutally got interested in the system, I started to farm all the frames. if the system didnt bring actually useful abilities I wouldnt put any effort into using it. and eventually players would stop caring about it, people would only use it when replacing  bad abilities on all future frames.

 

I agree that for this system to work perfectly, abilities would need to be pretty equal, but while making all abilties equally 'meh' would make system work better it would create problem of people not actually being interested in the system.

People actually care about this system now because it provides some actually useful abilities, whatever its damage buff, damage migation, healing, energy or utility. DE is between rock and a hard place, either DE uninteresting but balanced system that players will stop carrying about pretty soon or create actually useful system that adds another layer of custumization to frames which will be very hard if not out right impossible to perfectly balance.

When DE presented the system at Tennocon, everyone made a list and put the easy/weak abilitites on the list. Sure, there were many stinkers on the list, but some quite ok ones, too. No force multipliers, but some hidden gems. And everybody was hyped, although the power level was way lower overall.
Now, pandora's box has been opened and it can't be closed again. 

[Aeon94]

I'm not happy with nerfs and MR reduction. DE, you should have know that those chosen 6 abilities were gonna be top picks, no matter what.

( I just wanted to subsume Nidus first because of infested theme and nerf irks me badly).

If you are THAT worried about balance, you shouldn't add such system or select those powers in first place. I don't mind switching strong abilities with weaker ones ( Roar > Charge etc. ) or vice versa ( Mind Control > Psychic Bolts etc. ) but don't nerf anything and make them inferior to their originals.

Not to mention where you will stop with nerfs, God knows if you at some point decide to nerf Lull, Elemental Ward or any other ability just for sake of so called balance.

Lastly, you guys told us that this system is for " experienced players " in Tennocon and gave us long term players a glimpse of some endgame stuff but now you just backpedalled again for sake of vocal casuals and newcomers. MR15 was fine and there was no reason to reduce it ( should be higher to make people advance more into MR imo ). Sorry but your reasoning for reduction doesn't make sense as this system is targeted for experienced players.

Please revert changes and switch abilities if needed instead of touching their stats. Nerfing won't make people to choose other abilities, just frustrate your playerbase a few days before one of your most hyped updates as you can see in this 170+ pages thread, forums, youtube, reddit and twitter.

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

Help me. so far I have not received a response to a bug in my game. I couldn't finish the Sacrifice quest because I didn't get an inbox from Odis which contained the personal quarters segment rewerd. Please take the warframe seriously because my game is hampered by this problem

[GNDZer0]

I think the DEVs are trying their best but really need a different perspective. 

So much talk about how Warframe is a power fantasy but whenever something pushes some Arbitrary boundary it gets nerfed. 

Nerfing is an OK tool to be used in very specific circumstances. However as things are DE seems to have taken it as a crutch. 

It's easier to nerf a fun thing than it is to pull multiple things up to its own level. And the logic seems to be "if we can't Buff everything to this level lets just nerf". How about, if we Buff something else to compete we suddenly have double the meta options? The meta will always exist and not every option is going to be meta but you can make more things interesting rather than hammer down interesting options to fall in line with the more boring options. 

If you need to make something less fun for your players to make it balanced I'd argue balance is actually a detriment to our game.

Despite disagreeing with what I perceive as an overuse of nerfs as a solution I'll reiterate:

I think the DEVs are still trying to look out for the game as best they can. (I felt this was necessary as some people I've talked to or read comments from seem to be a tad too heated about this and if we want a better game we need to be civil and work together) 

[Oxin]

Honestly, I'm surprised that those abilities were chosen, though I wasn't shocked by that nerf in the slightest.

I have no room for say in the matter, but why Defy though?

 

[Slenderminion]

So basically, instead of making the other abilities more appealing by making them better, you make the favored abilities less appealing by making them worse. I feel like many people would be a lot happier if the reverse was true.

[Fluttershy93]

Wonder when DE will actually respond to all this negative feedback they got on these changes, because the radio silence has not been all that great.

[(XBOX)Skullstachio]

On 2020-08-13 at 3:27 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

That’s all for now!

My Honest judgement: I would undo this particular change for the right reason. The reason being that Considering the amount of weapons/Warframes/companions/activities/etc. that there is, it’s advisable that the Helminth Chrysalis system be left as an endgame setting and remain obtainable at MR15 since reaching that rank proves to others that the individuals who have reached that hallmark are proficient in a way that they are familiar with the game, have mastered most activity types, and are capable of using all weapons since most weapons are restricted up to MR15 with rivens being for MR15+ players who strive to become better than what they are, sure some people like playing a meta, but not everyone thinks that, some people play just for fun, to relieve some tension and stress, Hel, there are even some folk who take to the lore aspect of Warframe and may even create stories based off it.

long story short: do not reduce the effectiveness of infused Warframe abilities and reduce the mastery requirements, Leave them as they were pre-august 19th update (MR15 is something people have to work towards which is good as it takes time to master most of Warframes fundamentals and become familiar with.) to achieve something that is just outta reach but can be earned if the time and effort is put into it.
I worked hard to get where I am (MR23, still improving over time.) as have so many others who truly put the time and effort in to become a part of this beloved community. Think about what I have written here and contemplate on what there is and what shall be.

[HolySeraphin]

And here we have again the same old argument "Don't nerf, buff the rest", even though [DE] Pablo explained that it is harder and more complex to buff the majority insteaed of nerfing 1-6 things to be more in line with the rest.

Therefore, as a protest, I will put Mind Control on Chroma.

[Oxin]

29 minutes ago, Fluttershy93 said:

Wonder when DE will actually respond to all this negative feedback they got on these changes, because the radio silence has not been all that great.

It's to be expected, for them it's like whiplash- jarring. They weren't expecting that much negative feedback from their choice of nerfs.

 

Would have been better to just buff or change the worst abilities for anything else. That would encourage player choice, I'd think.