The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Arkennstar]

To tldr in meme form, this whole debacle :

DE : We'll pick S+ tier abilities from 4-5 warframes, A tier abilities from a handful warframes and D tier abilities from the rest of the dozens of other warframes, for the infusion pool.

Players : Choose the S+ tier abilities for most infusions.

DE : Surprised pikachu face.

 

I mean when you pick Roar (best ability) for Rhino, not Charge (mediocre ability), but pick Mind Control (mediocre) for Nyx and not Psychic Bolts (best), or pick Warcry (best) for Valkyr, not ripline or paralysis (mediocre), but pick Ice wave (mediocre) for Frost instead of Globe (best)... what do you expect? Ofcourse the players will pick the best abilities regardless.. If you wanted to include stuff like Roar, Eclipse, etc in the pool, then you shoulda picked every frame's best ability.. or on the contrary, picked every frame's less used, mediocre ability.

[IGN_Maverick]

5 minutes ago, Arkennstar said:

then you shoulda picked every frame's best ability..

To be honest that would've been awesome. But I bet people that believe there can be "broken" stuff in a PvE game would argue that ( putting aside reductio ad absurdum examples )

[IgnitionPlays]

4 minutes ago, Arkennstar said:

To tldr in meme form, this whole debacle :

DE : We'll pick S+ tier abilities from 4-5 warframes, A tier abilities from a handful warframes and D tier abilities from the rest of the dozens of other warframes, for the infusion pool.

Players : Choose the S+ tier abilities for most infusions.

DE : Surprised pikachu face.

 

I mean when you pick Roar (best ability) for Rhino, not Charge (mediocre ability), but pick Mind Control (mediocre) for Nyx and not Psychic Bolts (best), or pick Warcry (best) for Valkyr, not ripline or paralysis (mediocre), but pick Ice wave (mediocre) for Frost instead of Globe (best)... what do you expect? Ofcourse the players will pick the best abilities regardless.. If you wanted to include stuff like Roar, Eclipse, etc in the pool, then you shoulda picked every frame's best ability.. or on the contrary, picked every frame's less used, mediocre ability.

almost no one wants to use worst or mediocre abilities hell i don't even use worst or mediocre abilities from the frames they came from they just aren't worth the time/energy expenditure and most where pretty exited to be able to replace those S#&$ty abilities the 1st chance they got when the new update showed up but 50% of the list itself is just S#&$ty abilities so of course players are going to gravitate to the good ones

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

hace 9 minutos, HolySeraphin dijo:

And here we have again the same old argument "Don't nerf, buff the rest", even though [DE] Pablo explained that it is harder and more complex to buff the majority insteaed of nerfing 1-6 things to be more in line with the rest.

Therefore, as a protest, I will put Mind Control on Chroma.

[Arkennstar]

Just now, IGN_Maverick said:

To be honest that would've been awesome. But I bet people that believe there can be "broken" stuff in a PvE game would argue that ( putting aside reductio ad absurdum examples )

I mean they already broke it by including SOME of the powerful abilities.. so either give us ALL the powerful ones so there is loads of choice or give ALL the mediocre ones so there is still choice.. with some powerful and some mediocre, there is no choice, we're obviously gonna take all the powerful ones. Duh.

[IGN_Maverick]

3 minutes ago, Arkennstar said:

I mean they already broke it by including SOME of the powerful abilities..

... in my opinion if there are people that can do 12 hours endurance runs and battle against 10K level enemies, there's no concept of "broken". At least for me the concept of broken is when a feature in the game gives an UNFAIR advantage to the player. 

Those 6 abilities would be fair even if you could swap them all and use them on the same frame. 
People can reach 12 hours of endurance runs and lets be honest, you don't need to be Faker level mechanics. The first bunch of lame ass players with a mediocre knowledge of the game could do that just by paying some attention to what they do.

So, explain to me. What would Roar do? Break the tissue of time-space continuum and create an alternate reality where this game its easier than it is already?

It will just make people feel more powerful... care, FEEL, because player already are.

The word broken shouldn't even exist in a pleb PvE only game.

[Arkennstar]

6 minutes ago, IGN_Maverick said:

The word broken shouldn't even exist in a pleb PvE only game.

Its not a question of being able to kill stronger stuff.. once youre at that level, its about killing something in 2 bullets that will usually take 4 bullets. Doing a mission in 50 seconds that took you 60 seconds. Min maxing like this is about efficiency.

The problem here I'm pointing out is that even if they nerf Roar or Warcry or Eclipse to the ground, like make it even 10% as effective as they usually are, I would still pick any of those over something like Ice Wave or Spectrorage or Pull or Terrify.. why wouldnt I? The latter abilities offer nothing compared to even a tithe of the effect of the former powerful abilities. Therein lies the problem. 

Now instead if they'd included Globe, Glass Wall, Polarize or Desecrate, then I would've actually had choice between wanting those or the others.

[(XBOX)DreamyRelic80]

The MR thing is the worst part potentially. If the idea was for experienced players. And the fact that Helminth is a resource dump. Unless the new player experience is really done well this could go bad. 
 

but then again I wonder how far in quest progression this is as well. That could be the big difference.

[blackovercoat]

8 minutes ago, Arkennstar said:

Its not a question of being able to kill stronger stuff.. once youre at that level, its about killing something in 2 bullets that will usually take 4 bullets. Doing a mission in 50 seconds that took you 60 seconds. Min maxing like this is about efficiency.

The problem here I'm pointing out is that even if they nerf Roar or Warcry or Eclipse to the ground, like make it even 10% as effective as they usually are, I would still pick any of those over something like Ice Wave or Spectrorage or Pull or Terrify.. why wouldnt I? The latter abilities offer nothing compared to even a tithe of the effect of the former powerful abilities. Therein lies the problem. 

yeah nerf those 6 ability mean nothing people still pick those 6 over some other useless ability though (mind control for example unless for meme purpose). DE did it again instead of make some weak ability viable or synergize in some way they choose easier way, nerf good stuff so bad that look like the other **** ability

[Tallon519]

Why would you nerf the abilities? The major draw for me was the crazy combinations we could make. Well there goes my hype. Looks like I'll be uninstalling warframe a week after the new update again. DE... please just let us have fun.

[SpentCasings]

1 hour ago, destraudo said:

Get all the power nerfs in now DE, people will get real sassy if they farm a frame to subsume and then you nerf. 

WE ALREADY HAVE.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb HolySeraphin:

And here we have again the same old argument "Don't nerf, buff the rest", even though [DE] Pablo explained that it is harder and more complex to buff the majority insteaed of nerfing 1-6 things to be more in line with the rest.

Therefore, as a protest, I will put Mind Control on Chroma.

Yeah, except they explicitly said they'd approach the balance of the Helminth Chrysalis by buffing weak abilities in the pool to make them more appealing and the choices harder three weeks ago at TennoCon. They buffed two really bad ones slightly I believe and then nerfed six subsumed versions people voiced their interest in.

They already heavily back-paddled on major design approaches they said they were going to follow after only three weeks. The MR decrease is kind of whatever at this point but it just adds to the mentioned back-paddling. I get that things can change while developing a game yet it's no surprise that some people seem unsatisfied if they perform a complete 180 on important design philosophies regarding this system.

"Buffing bad abilities to be appealing within the Chrysalis system to give a variety of choices AND not to forget to make them also better on the original frame to make it a harder choice as to what to remove"

turned into: 

"applying exceptions and extra rules in order to nerf and restrict the choices they decided to put on the list that people are already interested in"

In a matter of mere weeks.

Also, Mind Control on Chroma sounds like a nice meme. Finally a reason to consider buying config slots.

[Zilotz]

On 2020-08-12 at 8:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal.

I agree that it is not ideal, BUT there is another way to manage this - make more abilities actually worth using and remove those rules.

Please, don't remove fun from good abilities, adding fun to others would be much better.

If you don't have ideas for other(much less useful) ability buffs - just ask community, you will have hundreds of ideas in a day!

[Marquis_Catriel]

DE: *Heart of Deimos Reveal*

Me: *Hyped* Oh yeass content worth to spend time on.

DE: *Nerf abilities before the update*

Me: *Hype de-escalated sharply* Waste of my time & resources farming normal frames. "For veteran player" they said, *scoffs*. 0 f**ks given anymore for incoming "big" update.

*DE gets negative feedbacks*

Me: I can say silence is louder than DE, for now.

Spoiler

 

[selig_fay]

5 minutes ago, Marquis_Catriel said:

*DE gets negative feedbacks*

Me: I can say silence is louder than DE, for now.

I hope they are currently working on the concept of a weak ability buff so that this nerf has an excuse. But unfortunately, I still grieve over the healing nerf of the objects when frost and limbo are left unaffected by it.

[Pulsar_Prime]

The mastery rank requirement should be 15 and not 8, you literally said this is not a not player system, but now it pretty much is. 

The point of Warframe is to become powerful and destroy enemies, yes those abilities make us powerful but we work for that power and earn it, the higher mastery rank players should have access to more power because we earn it.

The issue isn't these abilities are strong, it's that the other options are quite bad, perhaps reconsider the other abilities we are being given and make them more appealing, and not by nerfing the good ones.

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

And here we have again the same old argument "Don't nerf, buff the rest", even though [DE] Pablo explained that it is harder and more complex to buff the majority insteaed of nerfing 1-6 things to be more in line with the rest.

So what? It's easier to sit on your ass watching TV and eating burgers and ice cream than it is to eat right and hit the gym, but we all know which is more healthy, don't we. In the same way, if devs keep choosing to do the easy thing, the health of the game is going to suffer. "It's easy" is not a valid argument. Nothing worthwhile is easy.

[Circle_of_Psi]

5 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So what? It's easier to sit on your ass watching TV and eating burgers and ice cream than it is to eat right and hit the gym, but we all know which is more healthy, don't we. In the same way, if devs keep choosing to do the easy thing, the health of the game is going to suffer. "It's easy" is not a valid argument. Nothing worthwhile is easy.

Pretty much..and both contexts works here to be fair, rather then taking time and doing work, they just press a button and be done with it...

[FSK41]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Darkncoldead:

are you happy now?

No in fact even if they half the % on roar  its still OP on all frames,i am happy when they remove the system entirely if it interests you

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, Sahansral said:

When DE presented the system at Tennocon, everyone made a list and put the easy/weak abilitites on the list. Sure, there were many stinkers on the list, but some quite ok ones, too. No force multipliers, but some hidden gems. And everybody was hyped, although the power level was way lower overall.
Now, pandora's box has been opened and it can't be closed again. 

Hype doesnt speak much about usefulness of the system, people were hyped for archwing, people were hyped for railjack, hell I remember people being hyped for very first rework of rhino, some people realized that first rework didnt actually made it good but those people were told to shut up because they dont know what they were talking about, and then rework droped, a LOT of people who were hyped started playing rhino but over time number of players droped and eventually almost no one was playing rhino because people realized that the rework didnt actually adress the issues with the frame which lead to another rework for rhino. My point is that hype doesnt really prove quality of something, especially since some people though that DE meant that signature OR ult abilties wont be on the list, yes there were certain people who thought that there could be some ult's on the list.

 

I wont lie I was and still am fascinated by the idea of switching ability and I did always think that at very least this system will let me switch some of the worst abilities in game for something not as bad, so yes this system would always have some use. Also it is not true that we werent shown anything poweful during tennocon for this sytem, we were shown something that had potential to be VERY powerful one some frames that could have increased the hype, I mean the helminth empower ability, +20% for next ability(not sure if its affected by power strenght though I think it should be), seems weak but in some situations it can actually be actually very good, like using it before iron skin, people already can achieve over 1mln armor, and with this it can get even more broken, I am also sure there are other abilities that can get crazy because of it, thought that depends on how exactly it works, like if you used it before peacemaker would it only worky on first shot or ALL shots since you used  before activating ability "peacemaker"

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

The main reason of lowering the MR to 8 is cause the new players attracted with the new advertising, will feel scammed or will get bored in the process to get MR15, the burn out of leveling 40 frames and useless weapons (and in the best case an epilectic attack) will reduce the game to only the worst part, Hidrion. and they will loose eventually the interest in this HUGE game, that have a lot of things, is really super easy to loose track, if you don't realize what is the most important thing, i have a lot of friends that never played again, just thinking in the lot of things they have to do just to get on track.

Warframe is all about:

1. Mods (with no mods ... is hard to play/ nothing works)
2. Endo (with no endo, no mods /so ... is hard to play)
3. Formas / Reactors / Catalyst (with no Forma/Catalys /Reactor No Mods, ... is hard to play)
4. Resources (with no resources no Weapons/Frames to put mods on)
5. Credits / Weapons / Frames (With no credits no weapons, no frames so No Game)

to achieve all that... you have to play a lot, so even the newer mr8 will need to spend a lot of hours to unlock the feature, so is not the same saying

"YOU CAN'T"

 

than:

"yes of course is there"

but with the trap that they can't access that part til they spend a lot of hours.

That's why they give Hydroid, cause is nice farming stuff, (with the syndicate mod) and the newer players will need it.

So still is for veteran players. the actual Master Rank thing do not represent a veteran player.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)H4YKEN1987 said:

The main reason of lowering the MR to 8 is cause the new players attracted with the new advertising, will feel scammed or will get bored in the process to get MR15, the burn out of leveling 40 frames and useless weapons (and in the best case an epilectic attack) will reduce the game to only the worst part, Hidrion. and they will loose eventually the interest in this HUGE game, that have a lot of things, is really super easy to loose track, if you don't realize what is the most important thing, i have a lot of friends that never played again, just thinking in the lot of things they have to do just to get on track.

Warframe is all about:

1. Mods (with no mods ... is hard to play/ nothing works)
2. Endo (with no endo, no mods /so ... is hard to play)
3. Formas / Reactors / Catalyst (with no Forma/Catalys /Reactor No Mods, ... is hard to play)
4. Resources (with no resources no Weapons/Frames to put mods on)
5. Credits / Weapons / Frames (With no credits no weapons, no frames so No Game)

to achieve all that... you have to play a lot, so even the newer mr8 will need to spend a lot of hours to unlock the feature, so is not the same saying

"YOU CAN'T"

 

than:

"yes of course is there"

but with the trap that they can't access that part til they spend a lot of hours.

That's why they give Hydroid, cause is nice farming stuff, (with the syndicate mod) and the newer players will need it.

So still is for veteran players. the actual Master Rank thing do not represent a veteran player.

Agree with you, fellow Tenno.

And for those who have an argument "new players won't have resourses anyway" - they can farm it! Farming resourses on different planets is much less annoying than getting stuck in Hydron for a few weeks.
I would understand if veterans asked for some benefits inside the system such as - more slots in Helminth the higher MR and unlimited slots require mr 16 or smth - then may be yes.. 


P.S:"Almost a 100 pages of rage because of nerfs in the unreleased update, wow"

[KikuVasNormandy]

hace 12 minutos, (NSW)H4YKEN1987 dijo:

The main reason of lowering the MR to 8 is cause the new players attracted with the new advertising, will feel scammed or will get bored in the process to get MR15, the burn out of leveling 40 frames and useless weapons (and in the best case an epilectic attack) will reduce the game to only the worst part, Hidrion. and they will loose eventually the interest in this HUGE game, that have a lot of things, is really super easy to loose track, if you don't realize what is the most important thing, i have a lot of friends that never played again, just thinking in the lot of things they have to do just to get on track.

Warframe is all about:

1. Mods (with no mods ... is hard to play/ nothing works)
2. Endo (with no endo, no mods /so ... is hard to play)
3. Formas / Reactors / Catalyst (with no Forma/Catalys /Reactor No Mods, ... is hard to play)
4. Resources (with no resources no Weapons/Frames to put mods on)
5. Credits / Weapons / Frames (With no credits no weapons, no frames so No Game)

to achieve all that... you have to play a lot, so even the newer mr8 will need to spend a lot of hours to unlock the feature, so is not the same saying

"YOU CAN'T"

 

than:

"yes of course is there"

but with the trap that they can't access that part til they spend a lot of hours.

That's why they give Hydroid, cause is nice farming stuff, (with the syndicate mod) and the newer players will need it.

So still is for veteran players. the actual Master Rank thing do not represent a veteran player.

Its a fair point... I was trying to remember for example how I was regarding resources in that moment (MR8 vs MR28-29 now) and I remember the constant need of things like Oxium, Plastid and Polymer... or even Orokin Cells.... now I pretty much swim in the stuff but I can´t remember to exact point where that happened. Those new players are going to have to put some real grind work here depending how far they want to dive in the system.

In my case... I have a bunch oif spares WF ready and in process, just because i can as you say... maybe some players in my mindset are going to feel motivated to grind their souls like I did XD

[wolfwind12345]

new players dont play for stuff so why should they get stuff, they have nothing to grind for so they leave wow dumb decision.

also nerfing abilties why 

[Culaio]

2 minutes ago, KikuVasNormandy said:

Its a fair point... I was trying to remember for example how I was regarding resources in that moment (MR8 vs MR28-29 now) and I remember the constant need of things like Oxium, Plastid and Polymer... or even Orokin Cells.... now I pretty much swim in the stuff but I can´t remember to exact point where that happened. Those new players are going to have to put some real grind work here depending how far they want to dive in the system.

In my case... I have a bunch oif spares WF ready and in process, just because i can as you say... maybe some players in my mindset are going to feel motivated to grind their souls like I did XD

but it creates different risk, as you mentioned  newer players NEED resources, I remember times when I was in constant need of neural sensors, having more then 10 sensors was great success for me, but I dont even know when it exactly happen when I stoped needing to farm for them, right now I have over 1000 of them and I have no idea how it happen. But back to problem itself, feeling the need to farm resources for this system in addition to all other systems can turn away some players, remember that they will hear from other more experianced players that doing this or that is better  to help you become powerful, there is info provided to newer players that would help them get there step by step, like what build they should use until they reach that point, I remember jumping from very bad build directly to build with corrupted mods, there was no steps between, which made farming corrupted mods very painful even in pre-made team.

 

You really think newer players will take their time with this system knowing they can improve their build with it ?