The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Urlan]

One could also consider that one method that to handle the resources would be to do like how Ticker has higher resource requirements for players with high stockpiles versus those with less to spend.

[Sylonus]

2 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

And here we have again the same old argument "Don't nerf, buff the rest", even though [DE] Pablo explained that it is harder and more complex to buff the majority insteaed of nerfing 1-6 things to be more in line with the rest.

Therefore, as a protest, I will put Mind Control on Chroma.

It may be harder and more complex, but it's also the more enjoyable and desirable thing to do, use the following logic:

If a chef has 2 popular dishes and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.
If a shop has 2 popular products and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.
If a tv channel has 2 popular shows and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.

They may want their less popular items to be more liked, but the answer isn't to make the popular ones worse....who thinks like that, honestly?

[Evhel]

@[DE]Rebecca@[DE]Megan Anything new from the DEVs after the tragic feedback you got from your community? Breaking the radio silence would be a good idea, imho.

[quxier]

On 2020-08-12 at 7:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

EDIT: We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15).

I just wish Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate is doable. If it's like the Solaris United - fine, little grind, sell some stuffs & earn some exp. Now we can rescue SU hostages. If it's like the Quills that requires you to kill big thing.... please, no. It's MR 8 after all...

[Zilotz]

2 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

They may want their less popular items to be more liked, but the answer isn't to make the popular ones worse

It is what i told some pages ago - making good things worse will not solve problem with bad things being(and remaining) bad.

If all good things will be nerfed there will be no sense to use this system as it will not give anything good.

[Aralicia]

il y a 7 minutes, Urlan a dit :

One could also consider that one method that to handle the resources would be to do like how Ticker has higher resource requirements for players with high stockpiles versus those with less to spend.

Does Ticker actually has higher resources requirements ? It's the first time I'm hearing this, and it's not on the wiki. As far as I was aware, the costs were randomized. Do you have any source about this ?

[IceBen]

13 hours ago, Nasair said:

Augments are stated as working with the ability you apply.

 

This is specifically about the damage buffs. You can't use multiple damage buff abilities on one frame, it is possible that damage augments get the same treatment, and won't be allowed.

[IceBen]

12 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

It may be harder and more complex, but it's also the more enjoyable and desirable thing to do, use the following logic:

If a chef has 2 popular dishes and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.
If a shop has 2 popular products and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.
If a tv channel has 2 popular shows and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.

They may want their less popular items to be more liked, but the answer isn't to make the popular ones worse....who thinks like that, honestly?

The balance team 😄

[Aralicia]

il y a 14 minutes, Sylonus a dit :

It may be harder and more complex, but it's also the more enjoyable and desirable thing to do, use the following logic:

If a chef has 2 popular dishes and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.
If a shop has 2 popular products and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.
If a tv channel has 2 popular shows and 5 mediocre, and 3 bad ones.

They may want their less popular items to be more liked, but the answer isn't to make the popular ones worse....who thinks like that, honestly?

While it's true, it is so due to the fact that the chef, shop and tv channel are not in isolation. They have direct competitors. If a chef willingly makes their popular dishes worse, people will go to another chef; If a shop shirks on quality, people will patron another shop.

If the balance team decide to nerf the popular choices, where do we find another balance team ?

[Sylonus]

Just now, Aralicia said:

While it's true, it is so due to the fact that the chef, shop and tv channel are not in isolation. They have direct competitors. If a chef willingly makes their popular dishes worse, people will go to another chef; If a shop shirks on quality, people will patron another shop.

If the balance team decide to nerf the popular choices, where do we find another balance team ?

In another game.

[_GoodLuck_]

8MR requirement looks ridiculous. You guys heard the joke about auto inserting Ayatan Stars? To allow the player auto insert Ayatan Stars we need 10MR but for this very complex system we need 8MR. Great job DE. I appreciate that

[Hawk197]

35 minutes ago, (NSW)H4YKEN1987 said:

The main reason of lowering the MR to 8 is cause the new players attracted with the new advertising, will feel scammed or will get bored in the process to get MR15, the burn out of leveling 40 frames and useless weapons (and in the best case an epilectic attack) will reduce the game to only the worst part, Hidrion. and they will loose eventually the interest in this HUGE game, that have a lot of things, is really super easy to loose track, if you don't realize what is the most important thing, i have a lot of friends that never played again, just thinking in the lot of things they have to do just to get on track.

Warframe is all about:

1. Mods (with no mods ... is hard to play/ nothing works)
2. Endo (with no endo, no mods /so ... is hard to play)
3. Formas / Reactors / Catalyst (with no Forma/Catalys /Reactor No Mods, ... is hard to play)
4. Resources (with no resources no Weapons/Frames to put mods on)
5. Credits / Weapons / Frames (With no credits no weapons, no frames so No Game)

to achieve all that... you have to play a lot, so even the newer mr8 will need to spend a lot of hours to unlock the feature, so is not the same saying

Here's the problem... MR 8 takes a week to get. That's not "experienced". At MR 15, that's still TWO weeks, which still doesn't mean "experienced", but at the very least we don't have a bunch of greenhorns mucking about with something they don't understand, trying to give feedback on a system they haven't even explored yet. You wouldn't ask a doctor to repair your engine, or a scientist to rebuild your computer, would you? No, because those fields are alien to them.

 

Mods, easy enough to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe.

Endo, easy enough to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe.

Formas and Reactors, are easy enough to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe. The Catalysts are also unimportant, since you really only need things like Catalysts, Reactors, and Formas if you're doing end game activities, which the Star Chart isn't.

Resources, are easy to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe. Yeah, newer players won't have the resources right away. Guess what though? This system is meant for "very experienced" players. Those "very experienced" players, like myself and MANY other vets, have stockpiles of resources, and we likely had those stockpiles since U20 at the very least. U20 was when we got Octavia, and was THREE YEARS AGO.

Credits, are easy to get, and have ZERO  impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe. You can get credits by farming resources. Shocker, right? Weapons? You start off with an MK1 set of weapons from the tutorial. Are they the best? No. Can they get you to the next step of building a better weapon? Yes. Can players take an unranked Warframe and set of MK1 weapons into the Star Chart and finish it? Rebb and Meg already did that on a years past livestream. Warframe? You start off with a choice of what Warframe you get. Maybe that changes in the new player experience, so now you HAVE to start with Excalibur. But... You know... That's still a starting point that gets you to the next step of building another Warframe to use. Rhino is like, two planets away. Back in my day, Rhino was locked to MR 2. Now? It's MR 0.

 

To achieve getting a Rhino, all I have to do is go to Region chat and politely ask "Hey, would anyone be willing to give me a taxi to Jackal?". I was barely MR 5 when I got my first taxi to "harder" planets like Ceres or Xini. You can literally get Rhino in a few hours, then in two days you can buy the Boltor blueprint from the market, a Furis blueprint from the market, and a Gram blueprint from the market. I know this will come as a shock, but you don't start off with the most amazing things at the start. You don't start with diamond gear when you load up a new world of Minecraft, you don't Mythril gear when you start a new game of Final Fantasy 7, you don't get the Master Sword when Link hasn't even left the starting town. gasp, shock, horror, lightning crackle, lightning crackle, lightning crackle! It's almost like you're suppose to play the game for more than an hour.

 

I'm tired of the spoon feeding. I don't want Dark Souls in Warframe, I'm not one of those guys. But how the actual eff is leveling in a game suppose to be hard? If we're now saying reaching level 15 is the equivalent of playing Dark Souls, then you might as well call me the greatest vidjie geme pleyear of all time.

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

hace 3 minutos, Hawk197 dijo:

Here's the problem... MR 8 takes a week to get. That's not "experienced". At MR 15, that's still TWO weeks, which still doesn't mean "experienced", but at the very least we don't have a bunch of greenhorns mucking about with something they don't understand, trying to give feedback on a system they haven't even explored yet. You wouldn't ask a doctor to repair your engine, or a scientist to rebuild your computer, would you? No, because those fields are alien to them.

 

Mods, easy enough to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe.

Endo, easy enough to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe.

Formas and Reactors, are easy enough to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe. The Catalysts are also unimportant, since you really only need things like Catalysts, Reactors, and Formas if you're doing end game activities, which the Star Chart isn't.

Resources, are easy to get, and have ZERO impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe. Yeah, newer players won't have the resources right away. Guess what though? This system is meant for "very experienced" players. Those "very experienced" players, like myself and MANY other vets, have stockpiles of resources, and we likely had those stockpiles since U20 at the very least. U20 was when we got Octavia, and was THREE YEARS AGO.

Credits, are easy to get, and have ZERO  impact on the Helminth system since you can feed seymour an unranked, unforma'd, unpotato'd, freshly made Warframe. You can get credits by farming resources. Shocker, right? Weapons? You start off with an MK1 set of weapons from the tutorial. Are they the best? No. Can they get you to the next step of building a better weapon? Yes. Can players take an unranked Warframe and set of MK1 weapons into the Star Chart and finish it? Rebb and Meg already did that on a years past livestream. Warframe? You start off with a choice of what Warframe you get. Maybe that changes in the new player experience, so now you HAVE to start with Excalibur. But... You know... That's still a starting point that gets you to the next step of building another Warframe to use. Rhino is like, two planets away. Back in my day, Rhino was locked to MR 2. Now? It's MR 0.

 

To achieve getting a Rhino, all I have to do is go to Region chat and politely ask "Hey, would anyone be willing to give me a taxi to Jackal?". I was barely MR 5 when I got my first taxi to "harder" planets like Ceres or Xini. You can literally get Rhino in a few hours, then in two days you can buy the Boltor blueprint from the market, a Furis blueprint from the market, and a Gram blueprint from the market. I know this will come as a shock, but you don't start off with the most amazing things at the start. You don't start with diamond gear when you load up a new world of Minecraft, you don't Mythril gear when you start a new game of Final Fantasy 7, you don't get the Master Sword when Link hasn't even left the starting town. gasp, shock, horror, lightning crackle, lightning crackle, lightning crackle! It's almost like you're suppose to play the game for more than an hour.

 

I'm tired of the spoon feeding. I don't want Dark Souls in Warframe, I'm not one of those guys. But how the actual eff is leveling in a game suppose to be hard? If we're now saying reaching level 15 is the equivalent of playing Dark Souls, then you might as well call me the greatest vidjie geme pleyear of all time.

Are we talking about the same game? 

this is a Warframe forum! 

[BloodRavenCap]

It's funny that I was bummed out that DE wouldn't allow us to use really fun abilities, because I thought that I wouldn't even mind the grind if we had to sacrifice four frames of the same type just to get all its powers. But now it's even funnier that from all the powers that they chose they even decided to nerf them. I expected nothing and I'm still disappointed.

Railjack and Lich reworks can't come soon enough.

[Histori]

I just wonder when i install Roar on my Nova what sound will see make when i use ability 🙂

[RS219]

18 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

Now you're going to have all kinds of people complaining that "It costs too much."

Remember how DE chose to nerf the Hema mutagen research requirement?

[ChivalricDeath]

10 hours ago, Oreades said:

But you get the stuff..... the only difference is that people get to enjoy it slightly sooner and the sooner they get to engage with it the better chance for player retention. The better the player retention the longer the game lasts and if you enjoy the game..... well I don't think I need to go into why that's a good thing. 

Uh.... You do know that most new players drop the game in like the 1st couple hours right? De has publicly commented on how overwhelmed new players are and it's because the game has an absurd amount of mechanics and systems upon systems that are barely explained to the players unless they have a wiki page open at the same time... You want to drop ANOTHER system on a newer player who barely knows that warframe has a story or how to even level up mods, or can even comprehend what Endo is?

Like...Come on dude, you have to see the issue in this, this was supposed to be a system for people that have a slightly more advanced understanding of warframe and it's systems, not a dude who's unlocked less than half the star chart and still thinks Loki is a good warframe..

[Cerikus]

I will probably be only one in the hundreds of posts, but I am gonna say it too.

Nerfing the compelling options is making the Helminth system boring, worse and just unexciting.

I was excited about it, because I actually though DE would use it as a way to do quick and easy buffs, but no, we are here again. The good abilities will still be chosen over others even if you nerf them by 70%, because other stuff is just garbage.

There are 2 good options:

1) Remove the abilities from Helminth, if they are a problem.
2) Buff the abilities that are garbage.

Your 3rd BAD way of nerfing the good stuff makes me not wanna participate in the system anymore.

P.S. I always hear about "buffing is way more difficult than nerfing and it takes more time". And so? Release it broken and unbalanced then! At least we will have fun. LET US BREAK IT. Take the time to buff the other abilities. What are scared about? People actually playing the game and having fun? 

EDIT: For some of the abilities the "buffing is way more difficult than nerfing and it takes more time" is not even true btw. Some of them will become hyper compelling just by changing a number.

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

hace 10 minutos, Histori dijo:

I just wonder when i install Roar on my Nova what sound will see make when i use ability 🙂

Looooooool

[DeathReaper1980]

We need a community support to stop DE from ruining the helminth system We need to let players choose any normal Warframe power as a ultimate sixth power with skill use timer and large cool down base off that Warframe power.

 

please spread the word to as many community players as possible
death reaper  

 

On 2020-08-12 at 2:00 PM, RobWasHere said:

Did you read the post till the end? You cannot have 2 buffing abilities active at the same time.

We need a community support to stop DE from ruining the helminth system We need to let players choose any normal Warframe power as a ultimate sixth power with skill use timer and large cool down base off that Warframe power.

 

please spread the word to as many community players as possible
death reaper  

 

On 2020-08-12 at 1:51 PM, Skythin said:

Yeah, endgame content!

We need a community support to stop DE from ruining the helminth system We need to let players choose any normal Warframe power as a ultimate sixth power with skill use timer and large cool down base off that Warframe power.

 

please spread the word to as many community players as possible
death reaper  

 

On 2020-08-12 at 1:52 PM, Voltage said:

Oh boy. Here we go. This looks impossible to balance, and the damage ability buff restriction won't change much of anything. Let's see how it plays out.

After reading comments, and looking through these changes more than once, I am convinced that this will be nerfed after being released. It would be nice for DE to tune this or reconsider some decisions before launching so nobody is getting burned 😞 

We need a community support to stop DE from ruining the helminth system We need to let players choose any normal Warframe power as a ultimate sixth power with skill use timer and large cool down base off that Warframe power. De need to take more time with the new system 

 

please spread the word to as many community players as possible
death reaper  

[(NSW)ohgodzilla]

I liked having the MR requirement high because it added a sense of progression. I understand why it has been changed though. It took months / year of playing to hit MR15 when I did it the first time, and not everyone has time for that. 

I don't understand all the complaints about downgrading the super-OP abilities. We all knew they were going to dominate the meta. If tweaking them now before it's even released means they don't become the 100% instant pick for every frame, then great. 

[HateField]

Ok who here said Roar will be good? Lemme know cause you know, snitches get stiches! 😉

[(XBOX)CI shadow2397]

I don’t know how much backing im going to get one this but I think that the system should be set at Mastery rank: 10 with weapons like war, paraceisis, and the ability to start using a broader range of prime weapons and frames. To me that’s when a new player really graduates into a solid knowledgeable player. It can also be MR: 9 for those who want to complain that the Test for Mr: 9 is too hard

[Ulseth]

The worst part about the nerfs is that the logic behind using the nerfed abilities is maintained. If you weren't going to pick something silly like Loki's Decoy because you wanted a simple damage buff, or an incoming damage reduction upgrade, you're still not going to pick that silly ability, and you're still going to pick the now nerfed ability, nothing changed.

In general, it might help if some more thought was put into what abilities can do in the player's favor, because there are many abilities in the Helminth list that are almost completely useless in general, to the point where it'd be a waste of time to get them, even if there were no alternatives, especially when you take into consideration that you may have to modify your Warframe's mods to make good use of the Helminth ability that you're trying to implement into your chosen Warframe. So with most abilities from the Helminth kit, you end up with a superior setup by simply not using them at all.

Also, MR15 is perfectly fine for this system. One of the best parts of the game is, in my opinion, having something to work towards, not to mention how overwhelmed players can be at the beginning portion of this game. I don't see what the point is of filling this system with useless abilities and then lowering the mastery rank requirement to reflect how useless said abilities are.

[Fightfight]

First post, played 1.5k hours.

I was really excited for the update, started farming and enjoying the experiance waiting apprehensively for the coming helminth system. Now the nerfs have really sucked my enthusiasm for it. I wasn't going to use roar but eclipse sounded fun despite being buggy, in fact because it was unpredictable I could see it being fun for me and not overpowered. Just because Roar is a powerful and useful ability doesn't mean it can be used well on all set-ups as it requires good strength and duration; let the community use it and see what happens. 

My concern about the MR change is that DE will have to balance the abilites to cater for the newer players; rather than keeping it for advanced players who have most other things completed and therefore not destroying their gameplay experiance by being very strong. 

If DE cares about their community they will revert the changes, see what abilities are used and then they can work on improving the lesser used abilities. If they removed these good abilities then many people will not find this system fun. If I can only swap one rubbish ability for another I won't be using this system. They haven't mentioned some of the other potentially very powerful combos.