The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[selig_fay]

4 hours ago, Sahansral said:

When DE presented the system at Tennocon, everyone made a list and put the easy/weak abilitites on the list. Sure, there were many stinkers on the list, but some quite ok ones, too. No force multipliers, but some hidden gems. And everybody was hyped, although the power level was way lower overall.
Now, pandora's box has been opened and it can't be closed again. 

Lol. It is the same. They showed Volt 1 and said the augment would work. And I think there is no need to explain why the situation would be the same. People were just surprised that DE brought really good abilities instead of only trash.

You know. "Ember fireball with augment on all frames!"

[EvillNooB]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)CI shadow2397 said:

I don’t know how much backing im going to get one this but I think that the system should be set at Mastery rank: 10 with weapons like war, paraceisis, and the ability to start using a broader range of prime weapons and frames. To me that’s when a new player really graduates into a solid knowledgeable player. It can also be MR: 9 for those who want to complain that the Test for Mr: 9 is too hard

please, don't quote entire post next time

[IGN_Maverick]

3 hours ago, Arkennstar said:

The problem here I'm pointing out is that even if they nerf Roar or Warcry or Eclipse to the ground, like make it even 10% as effective as they usually are, I would still pick any of those over something like Ice Wave or Spectrorage or Pull or Terrify.. why wouldnt I? The latter abilities offer nothing compared to even a tithe of the effect of the former powerful abilities. Therein lies the problem. 

Now instead if they'd included Globe, Glass Wall, Polarize or Desecrate, then I would've actually had choice between wanting those or the others.

I do agree with you then. Solution would be having DE pick the most appealing ability for every frame.

[Huanthus]

1 hour ago, Culaio said:

but it creates different risk, as you mentioned  newer players NEED resources, I remember times when I was in constant need of neural sensors, having more then 10 sensors was great success for me, but I dont even know when it exactly happen when I stoped needing to farm for them, right now I have over 1000 of them and I have no idea how it happen. But back to problem itself, feeling the need to farm resources for this system in addition to all other systems can turn away some players, remember that they will hear from other more experianced players that doing this or that is better  to help you become powerful, there is info provided to newer players that would help them get there step by step, like what build they should use until they reach that point, I remember jumping from very bad build directly to build with corrupted mods, there was no steps between, which made farming corrupted mods very painful even in pre-made team.

 

You really think newer players will take their time with this system knowing they can improve their build with it ?

But it also creates a new oportunity, since you can sacrifice a WF to subsume them it would help with the lack of WF slots when you dont have the plat  to get them, i was adamant  on the MR point but the friends  i am playing with  and by extension coaching  say that the game is hard to understand at times because the  amount of stuff you gotta learn/farm and the lack of slots so i softened up to that one.

 

[Qevo]

22 minutes ago, .Death.Reaper. said:

We need a community support to stop DE from ruining the helminth system We need to let players choose any normal Warframe power as a ultimate sixth power with skill use timer and large cool down base off that Warframe power.

 

please spread the word to as many community players as possible
death reaper  

no

[Xolgys]

Am 12.8.2020 um 19:27 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

snip

 

why do u decide to give out abilities which vary so much in usefulness, OBVIOUSLY, and get ppl excited for some and wondering about others...and then nerf the ones that actually sound nice on many frames before u even have real live feedback ?

again u choose nerf-mentality over buffing those abilities noone would give a flying rats a.... about. theres a reason why most people dont care about many abilities...they suck...they are not even really worth wasting energy for. why would anyone spend ressources on giving another frame an average (at best) ability. might as well not because it wont make a difference anyway because....well duh the ability is too bad. give us good options for which all abilities need to have a certain level of usefulness and power without a big gap between them.

there are some abilities u chose which are flat out super strong on the frames they originally came from already so when u decide to give them out choose similar ones from other frames to create a healthy, balanced pool for players to choose from.

seeing that u did not do that but instead decided to basically "heres candy....not" i can only hope u take the reactions to heart and consider buffing the weak, pointless abilities that might as well be called "wasted opportunity" or "wasted energy".

alternatively simply choose stronger abilities from these frames, like nyx's psych. bolts and buff the rest of her kit so that she doesnt become really pointless to play. same for valkyr. u gave out nearly her whole kit....so buff/rework the rest of her abilities when everyone can basically become valkyr....

with warcry u could make saryn a better valkyr than valkyr herself..even slow equinox.....slow everything by ~70-80% and reduce enemy dmg dealt to ~25-20% whilst having an attack speed and armor steroid...nova would become a much better valkyr too....most frames would because valkyr only has a panic button aside of warcry/eternal war.

 

nerfing some of the interesting abilities which fit onto many frames is the laziest, most disappointing solution thats actually not really a solution but hey...who am i...

 

[selig_fay]

7 minutes ago, .Death.Reaper. said:

We need a community support to stop DE from ruining the helminth system We need to let players choose any normal Warframe power as a ultimate sixth power with skill use timer and large cool down base off that Warframe power. De need to take more time with the new system 

 

please spread the word to as many community players as possible
death reaper  

Also tell me to put any ability in the operator, where I will put the razorwing and complete my fantasy.😏

[selig_fay]

3 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

And here we have again the same old argument "Don't nerf, buff the rest", even though [DE] Pablo explained that it is harder and more complex to buff the majority insteaed of nerfing 1-6 things to be more in line with the rest.

Therefore, as a protest, I will put Mind Control on Chroma.

Not. In protest, you must put mind control in hydroid. We all know that masochism is the best argument.

[ZenHare]

I cannot believe that DE is this stupid. Even if you nerf Roar down to a 50% damage buff, people are still going to pick it over Pull or Mind Control (aside from a very small number of niche builds). You would have to nerf the good abilities down to the point where they are not worth the energy to spend on them. And if you did that, why the #*!% did you even bother to waste everyone time with this Helminth system? All that development time was just flushed down the toilet.

[Oreades]

49 minutes ago, ChivalricDeath said:

Uh.... You do know that most new players drop the game in like the 1st couple hours right? De has publicly commented on how overwhelmed new players are and it's because the game has an absurd amount of mechanics and systems upon systems that are barely explained to the players unless they have a wiki page open at the same time... You want to drop ANOTHER system on a newer player who barely knows that warframe has a story or how to even level up mods, or can even comprehend what Endo is?

Like...Come on dude, you have to see the issue in this, this was supposed to be a system for people that have a slightly more advanced understanding of warframe and it's systems, not a dude who's unlocked less than half the star chart and still thinks Loki is a good warframe..

OK so your stance is that most players who leave the game do so within the first couple of hours. Which is probably a fair point...... unfortunately that has NOTHING to do with a system that is locked behind several days of MR timegate. As this content is.

Because if a player was to leave they would have done so long before they ever reached the aforementioned content even at the reduced MR... Sooooo what's your problem again? 

[Sentinel-14]

By this point DE is clearly not going to revert any changes, either to the nerfed abilities or to the Mastery Rank requirement. They're not going to buff any of the less-exciting abilities or they would have said so in order to placate the dissatisfied. What we see in the OP is what we're going to get.

The only options players have now are:

1. quit the game
2. deal with the changes and move on
3. not engage with the system at all.

With Option 1, if DE sees the playercount drop due to quitters it will only encourage them to further make stuff for newer players: obviously if they can't keep veterans around they need to keep enticing new players to come and replace them. Option 2 is just tacit approval of their decisions. I think Option 3 has the best chance of actually effecting some change, because they'll see that the system they spent so much time developing is being actively ignored by the players. A boycott, if you will.

I'll probably subsume some frames just so that the options are there if/when they actually make it worthwhile, but otherwise will not be engaging with the system. Not worth it for the frames I prefer to play.

[9Drade]

10 hours ago, GreyZetsu said:

if you put out 32 plates 5 of them with steak on them and the rest with dog doodoo you shouldnt be surprised that players will overwhelmingly go for the steak. Burning the steak is not a solution

I like this analogy the best. I would eat burned steak over dog pies, every time.

[Diedact]

26 minutes ago, Fightfight said:

My concern about the MR change is that DE will have to balance the abilites to cater for the newer players

I'm notably concerned about this as well. It has the potential to wreck the Helminth system entirely for anybody who has any actual need of it. I'd love to bring this into the Steel Path for over an hour. An MR8 doing that is laughable.

Going even farther Helminth is too strong for new players, with as individually weak as each enemy is I never really considered it a problem that some frames half their kit is useless or at best situational. With potentially the entire kit being strong the gameplay will be utterly trivialized by new players asking what's good to cram in Helminth and never understand why. Warframe was never really a difficult game but why bother learning how to play it when DE is giving these newbies a level of strength that will make the game utterly boring?

I'm selfish enough to be far more worried about my experience but really, I don't think my Warframe experience is going to be the worst off for this update.

[(PSN)thegarada]

6 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

The nerfs cannot be harsh enough to alter the tier list, but they also cannot be light enough to avoid causing player bitterness and resentment. Which begs the question: how did DE somehow delude themselves into thinking this would be a good idea?

The question though, if the original post had these abilities with already reduced value and MR 8 for the system, would anyone even be complaining now?

I also find the complaint about MR and nerfs to skills paradoxical. If you are MR15 Steel path should already jello path for you. Skills that add damage, are not even needed, except if you are doing Eidolon or Vallis boss fights. And if you are MR15 and cannot easily clear steel path, cuz all you do is farm junk to level MR, you do are not at end game. Not even close. And if you are already high MR and have top tier weapons, this is just cherry on the cake. Why does it matter who else gets access to the system. They can make it MR0. I do not care. It has no impact on me. 

 

[Uan91]

On 2020-08-19 at 9:59 PM, -SicMundusCreatusEst- said:

Why can't you just give us the system but with a enhancement system?

You have a real chance to give some value at the MR, like:
-From MR 8 to 15 Hellminth Low efficency (every shared ability will have a low value)

-From Mr 16 to 22 Hellminth Medium efficency (every shared ability will a medium value)

-From Mr 23 to 29 and onwards: Hellminth High efficency (every ability will work at original value)

Was that difficult? Try to give to new players a reason to do the MR and keep the veterans happy?

You will not retain any new or veteran players if you tell us "Lol we nerfed already every ability that you were expecting haha)

I'm  really fed up with your nerf only "ability", DE.

Beside the fact that I'd like to know WHO gave that kind of feedback that suggested to ruin the abilities instead of improving the others, 

I've read all the replies but I thinnk this is the best suggestion yet.

Maybe you could give more power strenght to those abilities that struggles to compete with the decents when you reach rank 23.

We were supposed to lift togheter, DE, not nerf every ability that gives a little bit of fun.

 

[(PSN)camwyn-xenos]

For those that DONT realize the out cry against DEVS decision to nerf and lower requirements pre release. l warn this, its because this will be the helminth trend if its popular NERF. DE rarely buffs nerfed things they stay nerfed in the do not reverse decisions. The new players will not understand the system nor will they benfit from it. You only need to read in game Q&A to see new players struggle with lichs and focus and even basic resource farming. All lowering MR will do is add more to a already step learning curve.

[(XBOX)DarknessZeref]

On 2020-08-19 at 3:24 PM, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
  Railjack.
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
  Inevitable.
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume
  MR 8 players don't have the experience to discern this consistently to their benefit. In plain language, they will screw themselves over en mass and complain to you about it. 

[ChaoticEdge]

13 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I never needed the definition of "diminished"😁

They adjusted the full strength versions of those abilities because they were likely overpowered in their opinion.

If they thought it was overpowered given the strength available in this game...It was probably overpowered.

Irrelevant...

That's like saying Mesa won't slot Roar in place of Ballistic Battery because it's not a full strength Roar...We both know that ain't true. 

Anyone saying that they still wanted the full strength versions anyway is basically saying they wanted to whine about getting nerfed after they subsumed a frame...

They are, for all intents and purposes, whining about having nothing to whine about.

until if my view is right then you got the right to complain.

[NameTryNr67]

This system was already a big risk in terms of balancing. But going the way to nerf good options instead of buffing weak once is puzzling me. There will always be a "Meta" choice, but focusing on making that option bad, instead of elevating others to its level just further limits choices. Why should I even bother sinking resources like crazy into a frame and subsuming it, if I literally have no use for the ability?

During the live streams it was mentioned that weak abilities will be buffed to make them more viable. Where are the buffs? Most abilities are still bad even for their own kit!

Also how could you overlook that "Roar" might be an issue in this list and will potentially outrank all other options? Including "Roar" and later nerfing it looks like this whole system is getting pushed out of the door before it is ready. There is a test server, if you do not have the people to work on balancing this (this is understandable as there are over 1.5k choices), but why not let the community help you? 

 

I was pretty hyped when this was announced, gathered ~30 frames to subsume them and now I am thinking of not even engaging into the system at all. Or at least get the mastery points (if any) and then drop it.

 

Sorry that I have no nice words for this, but this is just such a bummer for me!

Have a great day!

[_Anise_]

1 hour ago, (NSW)ohgodzilla said:

. If tweaking them now before it's even released means they don't become the 100% instant pick for every frame, then great. 

if they are broken they should ...

1/NOT have been selected as options in the first place.

or

2/the bad options should be not BAD to make the only good options not auto picks! because there are a LOT of bad options ! why 3xdecoy when there is really only one superior decoy?

[(XBOX)MMaster 113]

Hey DE, hey fellow Tennos
I kinda disapprove of some of the changes made on 19th of August.

I can somewhat understand the need for some tweeks to the transmuted / Subsumable Abilities, mainly to keep the original Warframe prestigious for that ability. Yet I believe that reducing the damage boosts too much on the Mirage eclipes or Rhino roar, etc. is an unfavorable way to go, since it sets them out to "awesome on Paper, not really in practice" abilities.

So the first idea would be just to let the diminished boost percentage in the low percentages. This way i believe they remain valuable but still have a downside to the original Warframe and abilities.

Another Option in my opinion would be that some abilities are additional in nature. E.g. A Roar boost coming from a Rhino can be supplemented by a transmuted Roar from one player player. Like with the original Roar only the highest transmuted one is applied. This would entail a decently diminished boost percentage.

The last one could be that the boost are heavily decreased but are fully additional and supplemental to all of the original Boost abilites. The same applies as in my 2. idea, meaning 2nd Boost abilities can be put into one frame like Rhino, Chroma, etc. Also that all abilities are supplemental to each other, so a squad could boost themselves with 3 different transmuted Roars. This would mean that the Buffs brought by the abilities are in the lower percentage but it would be a more team-friendly version. This may be the least likely solution but i still wanted to mention it.

 

I do agree with the MR change to 8 for the Helminth system. It may be no Endgame MR BUT it makes it more favorable because this way we can still subsume most of the Warframes we dont need or want (MR Fodder). Thus its more of a quality of life improvement for newer player.
 

Dont know if this is the right place for me to write this, if it isnt i am sorry!

Looking forward to the launch and see you around fellow Tennos

[KikuVasNormandy]

hace 2 horas, Culaio dijo:

but it creates different risk, as you mentioned  newer players NEED resources, I remember times when I was in constant need of neural sensors, having more then 10 sensors was great success for me, but I dont even know when it exactly happen when I stoped needing to farm for them, right now I have over 1000 of them and I have no idea how it happen. But back to problem itself, feeling the need to farm resources for this system in addition to all other systems can turn away some players, remember that they will hear from other more experianced players that doing this or that is better  to help you become powerful, there is info provided to newer players that would help them get there step by step, like what build they should use until they reach that point, I remember jumping from very bad build directly to build with corrupted mods, there was no steps between, which made farming corrupted mods very painful even in pre-made team.

 

You really think newer players will take their time with this system knowing they can improve their build with it ?

Indeed, you are right, I´m inside that niche group of people that has no problem to keep grinding ever after grinding almost the entire game twice by now, but for people more casual regarding looters games can be daunting. I´m kinda biased regarding this since I work a lot of citizen science where we analyzed tons of data and by this point I cannot tell the difference between collection thounsands of resources and analzing hunders of entries about stars to see if the project found anything interesting.

So regarding the question in the end.... Some newer players are going to do it and stay, like I did in 2018... how many? could be an additional good question there and I dont what that number is going to be high. I hope what DE can read the subjtext in all this post to dwarw conclusions aside the raw numbers of players playing and not playing in each update. I´m just along for the ride and still enjoying quite a lot.

Retention of veteran people, engagment and recruiting is a common problem also for citizen science and I can related with DE in that regard.

[(XBOX)DarknessZeref]

What I hope we can all understand is 

Veterans say:
The MR lock should be high because inexperienced players have the potential to ruin their own gaming experience with the Helminth system.

What Veterans should know:
This content should not be exclusive to higher end players for reasons other than preventing self-sabotage.

New players say:
Why release something that only veterans can play? I wanna try too!

What New Players should know:
Nothing. Your perspective is fresh and you're just having fun!

What DE should know:
Don't give ferrari's to teens without licenses. Prepare for horror stories of new folks subsuming all but their last frame, complaining about an "inability" to switch powers properly and the intersection of the lich system stealing their rivens, loot and credit bundles as they spiral out of control when they thought they were progressing. 

TO BE CLEAR
Veterans don't care. You can nerf the abilities, you can change which ones we get and all, but, the consensus is we'll have fun with it and maximize the benefits while the lowest end of the spectrum is exploratory with little room for contextualization of how things fit together. You can see how even existentially having the lowest end of the spectrum at a low point means more chaos among more people whereas the higher end give tenno a chance to understand anything before delving into such a complex system.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Wonder if this feedback of the changes is going to do anything..

[MSEP1]

Others have said what I’m going to say probably a bit better, but here goes. 
 

I haven’t been very involved in this game/community for the past year-ish, but the consistent precedent I keep seeing is that when something good gets teased or released, it gets ruined for seemingly no good reason. See Xoris, Kuva Lich initial release, Railjack initial release, frame nerfs, Steel Path being pointless, loot nerfs (reverted), bad frames getting ignored or lazily reworked (Loki, Nyx, Atlas, Chroma, Hydroid). 
 

I won’t say that the Helminth system is ruined, because it’s not. I will say that it seems like the Devs Like to see what players are enjoying or looking forward to then asking “ok! How do we make that less fun?”. At best, it seems like “how do we make all options equally valuable with the least work? Make the few great things bland.” 
 

I’d like to see the approach shift to, “ok! How do we make the game more enjoyable by improving player options (make the bad better not the good worse).” 

There have been a lot of really not so great decisions made. The changes to the Helminth system is another instance of that. It sounded great! You guys didn’t have to change it.