The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[9Drade]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

As much as people are hating on the current Helminth changes, nearly everyone is going to use the system on release and mostly use one of the "nerfed" skills.

Exactly. So what did the nerfs accomplish?

[Sahansral]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb selig_fay:

Lol. It is the same. They showed Volt 1 and said the augment would work. And I think there is no need to explain why the situation would be the same. People were just surprised that DE brought really good abilities instead of only trash.

You know. "Ember fireball with augment on all frames!"

With the given situation everyone sneers about these now, but before the release of DE's official list, everyone's guesses like fireball, cloud walker, smite and breach would be top tier then among the subsumed abilitites.There was hype even with these abilitites as the best choices because so many frames have bad abilitites to replace.

A upgrade for most frames, but no big power creep leap like now, where everything is in the trenches and crying foul.
 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Xepthrichros said:

Oh it will be. Once this is echo-ed by enough people and you find the game you worked so hard to kill (by your bad suggestions), actually dying. 

Sure. 

And hypothetically speaking, what will you do if you don't succeed in taking the big bad warframe down?

[(PSN)thegarada]

3 minutes ago, 9Drade said:

Exactly. So what did the nerfs accomplish?

Curb power creep?

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

Here is honestly what I think should have been done. 

Keep it MR 15, keep the "nerfed" abilities the way they are, buff some of the augments for the less popular abilities (Augments 2.0). 

Because here is the thing, I was already not planning on using Roar, Eclipse or Defy when this came out (Defy the meta), the only abilities I was excited for (out of these six) were Larva and to a small extent Warcry. 

Now Larva has a nerfed range of who knows what making it potentially useless. 

[9Drade]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Curb power creep?

Oh you mean the problem they created by putting roar/eclipse into the pool in the first place? Remove them.

[Nasair]

4 hours ago, IceBen said:

This is specifically about the damage buffs. You can't use multiple damage buff abilities on one frame, it is possible that damage augments get the same treatment, and won't be allowed.

Yeah, they could further nerf it. 😞

[Zilotz]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Curb power creep?

There is no powercreep at all, just they know some abilities they put are completely useless(nobody wants them at all) so they want to bring all other abilities that are transferred to trash tier. But that is a surprise they do it before people spent time/money to get those, usually they do it after.

[LuckyCharm]

Honstly skills like roar, eclipse etc arent exactly "fun"... By themselves. They're just stat buffs that need to be maintained. A lot of the time they cant even be used well on builds because they usually require large amounts of power strength or range which quite a few builds actually dont use. The fun is what those abilities unlock in terms of porential for weapons and skills you couldnt use effectively prior because the stats for killing just werent there. Its pretty sad to see them nerfed before people even got the chance to test their viability on their builds. I know a lot of mine wouldnt have use for them. 

Seems like a poor choice only days before intended release date. 

[IGN_Maverick]

This is what's going to happen. Radio silence till 25th; HoD launch and nerf numbers out; another post with 4000+ replies of suggestion on how dumb those nerfs are. 

[Thiadon]

Please do not nerf abilities. We can only equip 1 per frame, and only 1 damage increase per frame, that's restriction enough to maintain balance. The reason why those abilities will be popular is that they bridge gaps in current kits for many frames, making those frames usable and competitive with the top tier frames. Just leave them as is. If you want other abilities to be more competitive, choose some of the better abilities from other frames, and boost the abilities so they are more competitive. For example:

Revenant: Give mesmer skin instead of reave.

Nova: Make it possible to recast Null Star to refresh orbs.

Then, you have 4 very good options to choose for defensive abilities, each work slightly differently. On high strength builds, you'd go for Null Star, low strength, mesmer skin. High armor, Defy or Elemental Ward.

Full list of such suggested changes below:

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

WARFRAME	ABILITY	AUGMENT	Thiadon NOTES
Ash	Shuriken	Seeking Shuriken	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Atlas	Petrify	Ore Gaze	We will not create Rubble, however, we will increase base cone area to 180 degrees, adding range can increase it to 360 degrees. This increase should also be for the base ability.
Banshee	Sonar		As with other damage increasing abilities, this will replace Roar, etc. on frames that have them.
Baruuk	Lull	Endless Lullaby	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Chroma	Elemental Ward	Everlasting Ward	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Ember	Fire Blast	Healing Flame	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Equinox	Rest & Rage	Calm & Frenzy	We will use Rest or Rage depending on your Energy Colour. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Excalibur	Radial Blind	Radiant Finish	This is probably the best option for Excalibur's existing kit, maybe increase duration.
Frost	Ice Wave	Ice Wave Impede	Change ice wave to be a 360 degree aoe that does a percentage of enemy's health per tick, affected by strength, and creates a lasting frozen area which can freeze enemies walking on it over time.
Gara	Splinter storm		Gives an additional damage reduction option, Spectrorage will not get used without Gara's other synergies.
Garuda	Blood Altar	n/a	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Gauss	Thermal Sunder	n/a	Change Thermal Sunder to be a percentage of enemy health, affected by strength.
Grendel	Nourish	n/a	Keeps the heal and give Nourish Strike only. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Harrow	Penance		Comparable to Warcry, give us Penance instead.
Hildryn	Pillage	Blazing Pillage	Drains 50 Energy instead of 50 Shield. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Hydroid	Tempest Barrage	Corroding Barrage	Change from corrosive to an armor stripping effect that can reach 100% (like Ash Shuriken) with enough power strength.
Inaros	Desiccation	Desiccation’s Curse	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Maybe increase the base damage and health drain a bit.
Ivara	Quiver	Empowered Quiver	Give the full ability or give us Prowl.
Khora	Ensnare	n/a	This is probably the best option. Increase radius and duration significantly.
Limbo	Banish	Rift Haven	Base Ability Change: Add ‘Cancel ability on Hold’ to let enemies out of Rift. Additional change to make the ability do damage as a percent of enemy health, which scales with power strength.
Loki	Radial Disarm		Loki's kit needs a serious rework. He has not aged well. Radial disarm is the only usable ability, on top of giving us that ability, make it also increases damage to enemies affected.
Mag	Pull	Greedy Pull	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Boost radius.
Mesa	Shooting Gallery	Muzzle Flash	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Needs a bit of a boost to the effect and the duration to make it competitive.
Mirage	Eclipse	Total Eclipse	As is, no nerf required.
Nekros	Terrify	Creeping Terrify	This is probably the best choice from Nekros's kit. Increase armor reduction to be able to reach 100% at 300% power strength.
Nezha	Fire Walker	Pyroclastic Flow	Change damage to be a percentage of enemy health, scaling with power strength.
Nidus	Larva	Larva Burst	As is, no nerf required.
Nova	Null Star	Neutron Star	Make it possible to recast Null Star to refresh orbs.
Nyx	Psychic Bolts		Psychic Bolts would have been a better choice.
Oberon	Smite	Smite Infusion	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Needs an increase to the % of health damage though.
Octavia	Resonator		Metronome would be a better choice, either that or change resonator to do a % of enemy health, increasing with the number of enemies charmed.
Protea	Dispensary	n/a	As is, no nerf required.
Revenant	Mesmer Skin		Give mesmer skin as mentioned above.
Rhino	Roar	Piercing Roar	As is, no nerf required.
Saryn	Molt	Regen Molt	Double or triple base radius, make it do a percentage of enemy health, multiplying by the number of enemies distracted. Or give Toxic lash.
Titania	Spellbind	Spellbound Harvest	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Needs a significantly increased radius.
Trinity	Well Of Life	Pool of Life	Base Ability Buffed - Now does small amount of heal over time over a large range. If you hit the enemy, a % of the damage dealt gets converted into AoE heal. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Valkyr	Warcry	Eternal War	As is, no nerf required.
Vauban	Tesla Nervos	Tesla Bank	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Volt	Speed		Speed is the Volt equivalent to Warcry.
Wisp	Breach Surge	n/a	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Wukong	Defy	n/a	As is, no nerf required. Giving cloud walker would also be an alternative option, as much as I would hate to lose the exclusivity as a Wukong main.
Xaku	Xata’s Whisper	n/a	Can't comment.
Zephyr	Airburst	n/a	Base Ability Buffed - now has a HOLD or TAP functionality. HOLD to receive original functionality. TAP to suck enemies in a wind Vortex. Change ability to do a percent of enemy health, scaling with power strength.

 

And that's it. Now pretty much every ability is an attractive option, and can really help out those frames whose kits are lacking in one area or another. As for the rest, I'm MR24 and don't care when people can access Helminth.

[Hawk197]

3 hours ago, (NSW)H4YKEN1987 said:

Are we talking about the same game? 

this is a Warframe forum! 

Considering I mentioned "Warframe" 10 times... Yeah. Why are you confused? You didn't know DE spoon feeds the players constantly when compared to other basic games? I take it the NSW means you play on the Switch, yes? So maybe you're a newer player and have no idea what U20 means, or maybe you didn't know at one point Xini was a Corpus controlled map and was used to farm unlimited amounts of Syndicate rep and most players (Myself included) got Rank 5 in all their Syndicates day 1, or that Tonkor use to be a fun weapon and allowed players to rocket jump like you were in Quake or something. Understandable. But yes, we are talking about the same game. Warframe didn't use to be like this, you know? Today we got an infestation of avocados who want everything and more the instant they install the game. "Screw the vets, you old geezers don't deserve nothing! Go die alone in a retirement home already!" and dumb crap like that. Without the vets, Warframe wouldn't be a thing. We stood by DE for years. Without that, Warframe wouldn't be a thing. All we want is something for us. We want something that the babies can't have right away, something they gotta work towards, and let me tell you Warframe needs something like that. We got no goals in Warframe. If you asked me what my end goal was, I honestly couldn't give you an actual answer. That is why people are upset over all the nerfs and the drop to the MR lock. This was suppose to be a system for veterans but all the whiny babies had to protest because they couldn't have a shiny new toy right away. They don't want to play the game for more than a day before uninstalling, they want it all now, to get a quick fix of dopamine, then leave, making the overall game worse for those of us who actually stuck around. I've seen it happen far to much in recent years. Plains of Eidolon was suppose to be a veteran experience. When night came and you weren't strong enough, you got ejected. What did we get instead? Well, a boring skybox with no challenge that anyone logging in for the first time can do in the first hour.

[Nox_Terminus]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Curb power creep?

How does it curb power creep? You can still get the same abilities via other squad members. All this does is make the 'best' options a bit worse, ignoring the rest of the abilities, many of which should be getting buffed or reworked.

There are two options with these nerfs

1. The nerfs aren't enough to make the abilities not worth using.

2. The nerfs make them all pointless, and people will flock to the next bracket of 'best' abilities. Then one or two weeks post-launch DE will probably nerf those abilities.

What it won't do is make people say 'You know what Mesa needs? Mind Control'

[Saravind]

they can lower roar as much as they want.... folk will still pick it over a useless ability because even 5% more dmg is MOAR than nothing....

should of just removed roar and eclipse

[Aldain]

15 hours ago, OniDax said:

Ok. So, how would you ensure that this system is one designed for veteran/experienced players and one that is not intended for newer players?

Put it behind The Sacrifice, time investment and progression rather than "Hey look I leveled up a vanilla Hind can I use the Helminth now?".

[VoreoTheDragon]

So which frames (excluding quest ones locked behind simaris because no thanks) should i grind, i see rhino for sure again... but not entirely sure who else.

Im someone who only kept frames up till i had their primes 😞

[Nasair]

5 hours ago, (NSW)H4YKEN1987 said:

The main reason of lowering the MR to 8 is cause the new players attracted with the new advertising, will feel scammed or will get bored in the process to get MR15, the burn out of leveling 40 frames and useless weapons (and in the best case an epilectic attack) will reduce the game to only the worst part, Hidrion. and they will loose eventually the interest in this HUGE game, that have a lot of things, is really super easy to loose track, if you don't realize what is the most important thing, i have a lot of friends that never played again, just thinking in the lot of things they have to do just to get on track.

Warframe is all about:

1. Mods (with no mods ... is hard to play/ nothing works)
2. Endo (with no endo, no mods /so ... is hard to play)
3. Formas / Reactors / Catalyst (with no Forma/Catalys /Reactor No Mods, ... is hard to play)
4. Resources (with no resources no Weapons/Frames to put mods on)
5. Credits / Weapons / Frames (With no credits no weapons, no frames so No Game)

to achieve all that... you have to play a lot, so even the newer mr8 will need to spend a lot of hours to unlock the feature, so is not the same saying

"YOU CAN'T"

 

than:

"yes of course is there"

but with the trap that they can't access that part til they spend a lot of hours.

That's why they give Hydroid, cause is nice farming stuff, (with the syndicate mod) and the newer players will need it.

So still is for veteran players. the actual Master Rank thing do not represent a veteran player.

Yeah, the MR requirement doesn't really matter IMO. I think they have one as to not overwhelm new players.

[NameTryNr67]

15 minutes ago, VoreoTheDragon said:

So which frames (excluding quest ones locked behind simaris because no thanks) should i grind, i see rhino for sure again... but not entirely sure who else.

Im someone who only kept frames up till i had their primes 😞

That heavily depends on what you play mainly. 

Garuda plays well with Wisps ability for example, but breach surge is not that good on other frames.

You can go with the general best choices (all Frames where the ability got nerfed) as those abilities even severely nerfed are better than most other options, although most of them require Simaris standing. (If you have SteelPath, you can get Simaris rep quite fast in the Kuva Fortress)

I would recommend going through the ability list and picking the once you think would fit a frame that you play. But in my opinion most abilities are not really good on any frame, and most are only good on a couple (excluding again the once that were nerfed).

 

Edit: Defy might not be a great option for most frames as well.

[Nasair]

18 minutes ago, Nox_Terminus said:

How does it curb power creep? You can still get the same abilities via other squad members. All this does is make the 'best' options a bit worse, ignoring the rest of the abilities, many of which should be getting buffed or reworked.

There are two options with these nerfs

1. The nerfs aren't enough to make the abilities not worth using.

2. The nerfs make them all pointless, and people will flock to the next bracket of 'best' abilities. Then one or two weeks post-launch DE will probably nerf those abilities.

What it won't do is make people say 'You know what Mesa needs? Mind Control'

LOL, exactly or Decoy on Mesa 😄
It is PvE so I don't see the power creep problem if you even want to call it that. I just see it as a better way to customize and run solo or have new unique squads.
DE has said in the past they don't worry about power creep but now they are!?

[shootaman777]

.

Just leaving this . here to check up on it in a few days or weeks (to see if it is still here or not), to see if DE is actually going through the responses to this thread, 180-something pages in.

If they're going through the replies on this thread, then it likely won't be here, soon enough.

If it is not here at that point in time, then it might be worth providing feedback, since this would mean that it is more likely for feedback to be taken at all from this thread.

[Nasair]

33 minutes ago, Thiadon said:

Nova: Make it possible to recast Null Star to refresh orbs.

You can use the augment.

[Sahansral]

You know what?

Let's buff everything to roar level!

"The Origin System is ever-changing. Our enemies grow more stressful by the day. It is time to ease the burden of challenge. Forget what you have learned. Relax. To the victor, my esteem... and the spoils. I will be waiting. Will you walk the Noodle Path?"

 

DE, please just implement another star chart variant and multiply all skill numbers by 2, nono, by 5....ah damn by 10!
Doesn't matter it's PvE-game, does it?
Also, according to forum posters that isn't power creep and if it is power creep, then we learned that power creep is thing we should embrace, right? 
 

(Sorry, just my passive-aggressive reply to those "I leave WF forever!!" - statements.)

[Thiadon]

4 minutes ago, Nasair said:

You can use the augment.

Which makes it inferior to Eclipse which you get the full damage reduction benefit constantly without needing to use a mod. The mod for Null Star should cause the orbs to launch and do damage (percentage of health-based again to make it scalable). Recasting without the mod just refreshes the defense. The problem is that without molecular prime, and without the mod, there is currently no way to keep the defense buff up. Even with this change, Eclipse is still comparatively better because stepping into a different light instantly changes it to a damage increase.

[(XBOX)CI shadow2397]

3 hours ago, EvillNooB said:

please, don't quote entire post next time

Sorry

[OniDax]

18 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Put it behind The Sacrifice, time investment and progression rather than "Hey look I leveled up a vanilla Hind can I use the Helminth now?".

So, quest lock it. I'm all for that, really. I'm just not sure that will ensure that only experienced players interact with the system. In general, I think more content should be quest-locked as opposed to MR locking it, but that requires DE to really clean up when they provide access to quests. For example, Deadlock Protocol is available way early in the game's progression, yet its content and story is really geared for post-Sacrifice content.